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Are storage heaters a thing of the past (i.e. is it a good idea to install new ones?)

Bob24

I am looking at having an apartment renovated, which is currently heated by fairly old storage heaters in the hallway and the living room, and equal old panel heaters in the bedrooms.

It has been suggested to me by a builder I got quotes from to replace all of these (storage or panel) by Fahro heaters (which as far as I can see are nice programmable electric heaters which won't work with storage night rate). Basically the selling point I was given is that while they don't make advantage of the cheaper storage heater rate, they are more controllable and will heat only when I want it which means better comfort and lower electric consumption (albeit with electricity at a more expensive rate which negates the saving of the lower consumption).

I have a storage heater in my current place, and while it is indeed not that controllable and tends to make the living room a bit too hot in the morning and too cold in the evening as it is running out of heat to release, I kind of like that it is heating all the time and always keeps the place at a minimum temperature (when I'm not at home I leave the doors in the apartment open and it keeps the whole place at a decent temperature). Also I understand the night rate for the storage heater is half price compared to panel heaters, and I somehow doubt a programable heater which only heats when required will manage to cut consumption in half which is what would be needed to keep the cost the same.

Having said that I still understand the arguments I was given and I see online many people are getting rid of their storage heaters (and actually I think the savings on storage heaters I mentioned is not fully correct as when you have a storage heater tarif electricity providers inflate the rate of your "regular" on-stage consumption which makes all your other electricity usage more expensive?).

In summary, what are people's view on storage heaters? Is it a good idea to get new ones installed nowadays? (I see fancy ones have thermostats and are supposed to be smart with when to release heat, is that working?) Or are they a disappearing bread which doesn't make much sense anymore and should be replaced by more conventional electric heaters?

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bleary

I saw this estimate for running cost comparison before.
It does rely on the heater running only one third of every hour its switched on which I'm not sure I understand the logic of that.

If you are out of the house during the day it may provide savings, not as much when you want to heat the house all day long
http://www.smartelectrics.ie/lucht-radiators/running-cost

There's certainly an argument that with the advent of renewable technology that the nighttime subsidies may end as they are linked to coal power plants but they haven't yet so I'm not really convinced yet by the new types of heaters.

Bob24

bleary wrote: »

There's certainly an argument that with the advent of renewable technology that the nighttime subsidies may end as they are linked to coal power plants but they haven't yet so I'm not really convinced yet by the new types of heaters.

Yes that's a good point as well ... you don't want to install as system which is designed to take advantage of specific rate if that rate might disappear. But I guess it's hard to tell.

Outkast_IRE

I think they have their uses still.

My partner lived in a recently renovated studio apartment that had really good levels of insulation and airtightness, because the heat load was so low the storage heater worked really well for her, it would charge overnight and release it slowly during the day. A reasonably cost effective way to keep a small well insulated space comfortable.

Bob24

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I think they have their uses still.

My partner lived in a recently renovated studio apartment that had really good levels of insulation and airtightness, because the heat load was so low the storage heater worked really well for her, it would charge overnight and release it slowly during the day. A reasonably cost effective way to keep a small well insulated space comfortable.

Is it a newer model with thermostat and fans?

The one in my current place probably a bit over 10 years old and I am reasonably happy with it (and actually kind of like the room being heated at all times). But what I find is that the heat is not realessed in a very controlled manner: it would clearly release more in the morning than it the evening meaning that on very cold days it’s confortable in the morning but a bit chill in the evening. And on milder days it might be too hot in the morning but then confortable in the evening.

Are newer models capable of automatically maintaining a constant temperature without having to fiddle with the controls everyday (the one I have is not like the old models with input/output controls but it doesn’t have a display with controls and fans like the newer model I see).

andersat2

If your place is not insulated in the right way - night storage heaters is only solution.
Working 7-8 hours on the night rate they providing heat during the night AND releasing heat from inside stones during the day.

All those new heaters not accumulates any heat inside of them (after switching them off - they becoming dead cold in 30 minutes), so, if you want to keep room warm - you need to keep them constantly on, or insulate your place.

Yes they looks modern and fancy, has lcd screens, event NEST type of controls, but all this is just a gimmick.

I made a huge mistake replacing 2 night storages with new ones "economical" heaters. Basically bills are still the same, but place is 30% colder, as I cant keep them on constantly. Installation cost was around 1200 Euro for both. So it's money lost project.

Outkast_IRE

Bob24 wrote: »

Is it a newer model with thermostat and fans?

The one in my current place probably a bit over 10 years old and I am reasonably happy with it (and actually kind of like the room being heated at all times). But what I find is that the heat is not realessed in a very controlled manner: it would clearly release more in the morning than it the evening meaning that on very cold days it’s confortable in the morning but a bit chill in the evening. And on milder days it might be too hot in the morning but then confortable in the evening.

Are newer models capable of automatically maintaining a constant temperature without having to fiddle with the controls everyday (the one I have is not like the old models with input/output controls but it doesn’t have a display with controls and fans like the newer model I see).

No it wasnt, they were standard old style night storage heaters, no fans.

I agree they will give out more heat in the morning as they are simply hotter.

We would ensure the boost was set to 0 on them and input was around 4-5 when charging up over night. We would leave the boost at 0 in the morning and all day and then turn up the boost when home. The boost in reality is just a vent on the storage heater that would allow more heat out when turned up.

Keep the boost at 0 overnight and in morning, only turn it up in evening when home.

antoinolachtnai

If there is a balcony or a place to hang an external unit and the place is fairly well insulated, a possible alternative to storage heating could be an air-to-water heat pump.

Daytime electric heaters are not by and large a substitute for storage heaters. If you take the storage heaters out you should expect to have trouble when you come to sell the property. The property will be without an efficient heating system, or even the pretence of one.

There are certainly serious problems with storage heaters. The biggest problem is that the controls on older models are just not very good.

No knowledgeable building professional would tell you that a daytime heater (like the Fahro) is a substitute for an electric heater. A really well insulated unit might be an exception to this, but by and large this is just not correct.

I work in the electricity supply industry, and off-peak rates are not going to disappear. There will be new kinds of tariffs, certainly, but the basic idea of electricity being expensive in one part of the day and cheap at another is more true than ever as a result of renewables coming on-stream.

(The cavalry will be along shortly to tell us how great Fahro heaters are.)

Bob24

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If there is a balcony or a place to hang an external unit and the place is fairly well insulated, a possible alternative to storage heating could be an air-to-water heat pump.

I work in the electricity supply industry, and off-peak rates are not going to disappear. There will be new kinds of tariffs, certainly, but the basic idea of electricity being expensive in one part of the day and cheap at another is more true than ever as a result of renewables coming on-stream.

No option to place a unit outside, but thanks for the suggesting.

Since (if I believe the marketing) newer storage heaters seem to be pretty smart, and assuming off-peak rates are going to remain in the foreseeable future, I have to say I don't really get the rational for replacing an existing storage heater by a regular electric heater unless you only need heat for a couple of hours a day.

But I must be missing something as I've seen several people recommending to do that.

antoinolachtnai

Well, there’s a lot of problems with storage heater control for sure.

I often think about developing a better controller for storage heaters. At the end of the day, it’s two wires, one to control the vent and the other to heat the bricks.

Selling and installing regular heaters with fancy knobs is pretty easy money and the customer will be happy when the installer leaves because the home will be nice and toasty. The trouble only starts when they get the bill in a cold month.

Bob24

Digging up this thread as it is decision time and i still haven’t reached a final conclusion.

For now the plan is to install new storage heaters in the hallway and living area, and Fahro type of heaters in the bedrooms - but still in doubt.

Anyone with experience of fully replacing storage heaters by Fahro types in an averagely insulated apartment? (currently rated C1 but I think it was a bit generous)

Jasper79

Bob24 wrote: »

Digging up this thread as it is decision time and i still haven’t reached a final conclusion.

For now the plan is to install new storage heaters in the hallway and living area, and Fahro type of heaters in the bedrooms - but still in doubt.

Anyone with experience of fully replacing storage heaters by Fahro types in an averagely insulated apartment? (currently rated C1 but I think it was a bit generous)

Did you look at the Quantum heaters ? I looked at these before, they still use the night/storage rate but meant to be more efficient. Tried to research them before for real life usage but couldn't find much information.

Bob24

Jasper79 wrote: »

Did you look at the Quantum heaters ? I looked at these before, they still use the night/storage rate but meant to be more efficient. Tried to research them before for real life usage but couldn't find much information.

Yes those are the ones I am looking at and the control seems pretty good. But as you said there seems to be very little information / reviews available online besides from the manufacturer and retailers which is obviously biased (same issue with Fahro heaters). I’m a bit frustrated as I feel like I’m not making a very informed decision.

mairbu

Bob24 wrote: »

Jasper79 wrote: »

Did you look at the Quantum heaters ? I looked at these before, they still use the night/storage rate but meant to be more efficient. Tried to research them before for real life usage but couldn't find much information.

Yes those are the ones I am looking at and the control seems pretty good. But as you said there seems to be very little information / reviews available online besides from the manufacturer and retailers which is obviously biased (same issue with Fahro heaters). I’m a bit frustrated as I feel like I’m not making a very informed decision.

Did you ever reach a decision on the Quantum heaters? If you went with them, how do you find them?

Bob24

We went for a Quantum in the living area and Farho heaters in bedrooms. The heater looks nice and easy to setup depending on what temperatures you want, but I haven’t really had the chance to see how well it works as no heating has been required since installing it.

The idea is that they are smarter storage heaters i.e. they have a digital thermostat/scheduler allowing you to set different target temperatures depending on on the time and day of the week. They are also meant to be better insulated and with fans to extract the heat so that heat is only released when needed, and also if the full amount of heat stored in the heater is not used during one day it is supposed to only top-up what is required the following night instead of just running constantly on the ESB time-switch. Lastly there is a built in regular electric heater which is automatically used as a fall-back if it is very cold and the amount of heat stored is not sufficient to cover a full day (and also so that you get heat immediately when you turn it on if it hasn’t been used for the previous days and there is not heat stored inside).

All this sounds great in theory, but as others I couldn’t find any independent reviews/advice online. I only found information from the manufacturers website or those of installers, and unsurprisingly they all say it’s a great product.

So for now it looks good but I’ve more played with it as opposed to really using it. I should be able to give some actual feedback in a few months after the weather gets colder and I receive electricity bills.

John.G

Bob24 wrote: »

We went for a Quantum in the living area and Farho heaters in bedrooms. The heater looks nice and easy to setup depending on what temperatures you want, but I haven’t really had the chance to see how well it works as no heating has been required since installing it.

The idea is that they are smarter storage heaters i.e. they have a digital thermostat/scheduler allowing you to set different target temperatures depending on on the time and day of the week. They are also meant to be better insulated and with fans to extract the heat so that heat is only released when needed, and also if the full amount of heat stored in the heater is not used during one day it is supposed to only top-up what is required the following night instead of just running constantly on the ESB time-switch. Lastly there is a built in regular electric heater which is automatically used as a fall-back if it is very cold and the amount of heat stored is not sufficient to cover a full day (and also so that you get heat immediately when you turn it on if it hasn’t been used for the previous days and there is not heat stored inside).

All this sounds great in theory, but as others I couldn’t find any independent reviews/advice online. I only found information from the manufacturers website or those of installers, and unsurprisingly they all say it’s a great product.

So for now they look good but I’ve more played with it as opposed to really using it. I should be able to give some actual feedback in a few months after the weather gets coldes and I receive electricity bills.

I would/will be very interested in your experience of this heater later on in the year.
What size heater did you select??
I spent a lot of time in 2015 trying to get info on the above especially re their heat retention as the biggest problem with storage heaters is that they are/were not!!

Here is a edited form of that info, it may be of some use. (info from March 2015)

"I have been looking at all the info I can gather re the Dimplex Quantum Storage Heater for a close relation who is contemplating installing them in a refurbished small house. The single most important item with any storage heater is their ability to actually store the heat . This is allegedly one of the quantum’s major attributes but I just don,t seem to be able to get a definitive statement on this, see more on this later.

The storage heater comes in four sizes: QM070,QM100,QM125&QM1.50.which are respectively 0.7KW,1.0KW,1.25KW&1.5KW (Outputs) (there may be a 2.0 KW one as well), The heaters all have a fan to distribute the heat and have all sorts of sophisticated controls which seem very useful whether one works by day or is at home all day, it also has a holiday function. (see link for reviews)

Storage Heater Losses. I did see somewhere that the quantum heater will retain “more than 50% of its capacity after 24 hrs”, now IF this true then the leakage rate of a 1.5 KW heater is up to 480 watts/hr or 0.48 Kw/hour which would keep a well insulated room quite comfortable but this is no good for someone who is out all day and only wants heat in the evening/night. Here is the quotation that I saw.... Dynamic storage capacity - automatically adjusts to user needs
Designed to retain over 50% of heat 24 hours after the initial charge
Infinitely controllable electronic heat output to precisely match user lifestyle."

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4756577&page=2

Bob24

The one we have is a QM150, but I guess which model to get just depends on the size of the area you want it to heat (we let the company who installed it suggest the best heater size). It probably makes sense for us to have a larger model as it will be heating a medium size apartment living area + small kitchen and a small bit of corridor. Unfortunately I won't be able to compare cost to the previous heaters as we fully refurbished the place before moving in and thus never used them, but I'll be happy to report on how well it works in terms of retaining heat and heating the room exactly when and how you want it to. Feel free to bump up the thread in November or December and remind me if I forget.

mairbu

Bob24 wrote: »

Feel free to bump up the thread in November or December and remind me if I forget.

How're these working out for you? How are your bills looking?

Bob24

mairbu wrote: »

How're these working out for you? How are your bills looking?

Sorry for the delay, currently on holiday and had no internet for a few days.

First bill after I started using it was pretty low and I am pleasantly surprising, but with bi-monthly billing it still is for a period of fairly light use when the weather was only starting to get cold.

In terms of confort and compared to a standard storage heather I’m quite pleased. The combination of digital time clock, thermostat, and fans to exact the heat are doing their job well and for now the heater has always delivered the temperature I wanted and only when I wanted it. So my first impression is that it’s fulfilling the manufacturers promises.

One issue I have though is that whenever the fans are running their is a pretty lourd metal clicking noise which is clearly audible and fairly distracting (I scan post an audio recording when I’m back from holiday). Dimplex said it is probably the metalwork expending and contracting as its temperature changes, which is what I though as well. But nonetheless it is annoying and if nothing was done to limit this a bit more in such en expensive heater I would see it as a serious drawback (and older generation and lower end Dimplex storage heater I had in a previous place didn’t do that). They are sending someone for a service call to double check after I get back though so at least there is decent support. I can keep you updated on this.

listermint

Bob24 wrote: »

Sorry for the delay, currently on holiday and had no internet for a few days.

First bill after I started using it was pretty low and I am pleasantly surprising, but with bi-monthly billing it still is for a period of fairly light use when the weather was only starting to get cold.

In terms of confort and compared to a standard storage heather I’m quite pleased. The combination of digital time clock, thermostat, and fans to exact the heat are doing their job well and for now the heater has always delivered the temperature I wanted and only when I wanted it. So my first impression is that it’s fulfilling the manufacturers promises.

One issue I have though is that whenever the fans are running their is a pretty lourd metal clicking noise which is clearly audible and fairly distracting (I scan post an audio recording when I’m back from holiday). Dimplex said it is probably the metalwork expending and contracting as its temperature changes, which is what I though as well. But nonetheless it is annoying and if nothing was done to limit this a bit more in such en expensive heater I would see it as a serious drawback (and older generation and lower end Dimplex storage heater I had in a previous place didn’t do that). They are sending someone for a service call to double check after I get back though so at least there is decent support. I can keep you updated on this.

have someone qualified open it and check.

I had the same problem in one in my old apartment.

the original installer had literally left the Dimplex manual installed inside and it was slapping off the rotating manual.......

Bob24

listermint wrote: »

have someone qualified open it and check.

I had the same problem in one in my old apartment.

the original installer had literally left the Dimplex manual installed inside and it was slapping off the rotating manual.......

Not yet as I went on a long holiday before it could be organised, but I exchanged a few emails with Dimplex and they offered to send a technician to check it once I get back (first they said it was normal and due to metal expending/contracting, but after I insisted a bit and sent a recording they said they would log a service call request).

I should have an update in a week or two.

Does yours operate silently now? (Besides the slight fan noise)

PS: the guy who installed it at your place is seriously negligent, with the heat in there it could have caught fire!

listermint

Bob24 wrote: »

Not yet as I am went on a long holiday before it could be organised, but I exchanged a few emails with Dimplex and they offered to send a technician to check it once I get back (first they said it was normal and due to metal expending/contracting, but after I insisted and a bit and sent a recording they said they would log a service call request).

I should have an update in a week or two.

Does your operates silently now? (Besides the slight fan noise)

PS: the guy who installed it at your place is seriously negligent, with the heat in there it could have caught fire!

Tell me about it.

No longer living there. It was silent after I removed it yes.

John.G

Bob24 wrote: »

The one we have is a QM150, but I guess which model to get just depends on the size of the area you want it to heat (we let the company who installed it suggest the best heater size). It probably makes sense for us to have a larger model as it will be heating a medium size apartment living area + small kitchen and a small bit of corridor. Unfortunately I won't be able to compare cost to the previous heaters as we fully refurbished the place before moving in and thus never used them, but I'll be happy to report on how well it works in terms of retaining heat and heating the room exactly when and how you want it to. Feel free to bump up the thread in November or December and remind me if I forget.

Hi Bob,
How is your Quantum doing for the past few months.?
John

Bob24

Jasper79 wrote: »

Did you look at the Quantum heaters ? I looked at these before, they still use the night/storage rate but meant to be more efficient. Tried to research them before for real life usage but couldn't find much information.

Heya. Yes I actually got a Quantum heater installed.

I’m rather happy with the functionality: the thermostat/digital scheduler combined to the good insulation and fans to extract the head are doing a good job at heating the room exactly at the tempearature you want and only when you want it. And the additional resistor automatically takes over to keep the room warm in the evening if there is no more stored heat (but of course if this happens this is day rate electricity so better make sure the heater or combination of heaters is sized so that it doesn’t happen too often).

Now the one annoying issue I have is that the heater sometimes emits regular metal clicking noises which are disturbing if you are trying to focus in a quite room and can be heard if you’re watching TV or listening to musing at low levels.

Dimplex did send a technician to opened the heater but couldn’t find the root cause. He made sure all screws are tights to prevent vibrations but this didn’t help and I need to get back to them on this issue.

This has been fairly annoying and I was not too impressed by their support TBH. If they can’t fix it and/or tell me this is normal behaviour it would lead me to recomand against the heater, as the sound nuisance is much more than an an older and cheaper Dimplex heater I’ve used and not acceptable to my for their top of the line model. But I can’t believe this is happening by design and still hoping they can fix it - in which case I would say this is a great product which manages to leverage night rate electricity while fixing all the disadvantages of traditional storage heaters (besides the fact that it is much larger and heavier than a regular electric heater).

kensingtondell

Hi,

How are you finding the Quantum heater now and what do you think of their efficiency?

Bob24

kensingtondell wrote: »

Hi,

How are you finding the Quantum heater now and what do you think of their efficiency?

Heya. In terms of confort and efficiency I am rather happy with it. I don’t have any previous bill to compare to as I never lived in the same place with a different heater, but the cost has been reasonable and the room is always warm.

However a clear lowlight is their customer service. I have had three technician visits over the past couple of months related to the noise issue I mentioned earlier, and it is still not very clear what the problem is (one part was replaced recently and waiting a bit to see if the issue is definitly fixed). Also scheduling visits has been messy at times since there seems to some intermediary involved between their support staff and the actual technicians who are self employed and paid per visit (it took ages to arrange the first visit and the first time around the technician didn’t show up on the agreed day). And quite frankly one of the technicians they sent was overly careless in the way he handled the heater and chipped the paint of the metal cover which I was not extremely impressed with (the whole time I was also concerned about damage to my wooden floor as metal cover parts where dropped/dragged on the floor).

So to summarize overall I think it is actually a very good heater if you don’t have any issue with it. But given the appaling customer service experience I have had, I am in two minds about recommending it.

kensingtondell

Thanks for the update.

I'm thinking about going for these as well. How would you typically use it? Would you heat it up at night on the night rates and then use it during the day as you need it?

Bob24

kensingtondell wrote: »

Thanks for the update.

I'm thinking about going for these as well. How would you typically use it? Would you heat it up at night on the night rates and then use it during the day as you need it?

No worries.

I leave it on ful automatic - With the timer/thermostat set with my desired heating times and temperatures.

It works well: it accumulates heat on the night rate and only releases it during the day as required. And as the heat storage is exhausted it automatically falls back to regular rate electricity as a top up.

One thing I regret is not to have installed a second smaller quantum heater in the entrance hall to have extra storage capacity as with the current setup storage runs out before the end of the day.

ercork

https://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/plug-and-play-radiator-doubles-home-energy-storage-solution-lower-electric-bills.html

Anyone ever come across these? It looks like a more modern take on the storage heater - instead of heating up bricks using night rate electricity and then allowing the heat to dissipate throughout the day these appear to charge up a lithium battery during the night. Then you can use the battery to power the elecrid rad throughout the day. Looks a great idea.

kensingtondell

Bob24 wrote: »

It works well: it accumulates heat on the night rate and only releases it during the day as required. And as the heat storage is exhausted it automatically falls back to regular rate electricity as a top up.

Thanks for the info. When the heat is exhausted - can you set it to only accumulate at the night rate again? Basically, it will only ever use the night rate.

My plan is to use it for a converted garage which I'm turning into a home office. The room is well insulated. So I might not use it for 3 days during the week but I'd like it to accumulate at night time and then disperse during the day at a low temperature (maybe 16C). I don't mind if it exhausts all the heat before accumulating again. I think the insulated room should hold the heat and eliminate the risk of frost/dampness.

Bob24

kensingtondell wrote: »

Bob24 wrote: »

It works well: it accumulates heat on the night rate and only releases it during the day as required. And as the heat storage is exhausted it automatically falls back to regular rate electricity as a top up.

Thanks for the info. When the heat is exhausted - can you set it to only accumulate at the night rate again? Basically, it will only ever use the night rate.

My plan is to use it for a converted garage which I'm turning into a home office. The room is well insulated. So I might not use it for 3 days during the week but I'd like it to accumulate at night time and then disperse during the day at a low temperature (maybe 16C). I don't mind if it exhausts all the heat before accumulating again. I think the insulated room should hold the heat and eliminate the risk of frost/dampness.

Yes you can set it to only use the heat which was accumulated during the night and never fall back to the built in resistor as a topup (but in that case it will of course stop heating when the heat storage runs out, so you might want to make sure it is properly sized or even a bit oversized for your room).

And also you can set a target temperature and define your own heating schedule for each individual day of the week. So it let’s say you only want it to heat up the room to 16 degrees between 9AM and 6PM on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays, that is something you can do schedule with the electronic timer/thermostat (although while it is well insulated I assume they will be minor heat loss between Thursday evening and the next Tuesday morning).