J C wrote: » On matters of life and death people are ultimately informed by their God-given conscience, whether they are Christian or not ... they instinctively know right from wrong ... and if they choose wrong ... it will haunt them for the rest of their lives ... even if God has forgiven them after they have repented. They may try to deny and suppress their conscience ... but it will keep 'pricking' them ... often when they least expect. Whilst God may forgive us for any harm we may cause others ... we often find it most difficult to forgive ourselves ... and of course, any harm done can't be undone.
J C wrote: » A precedent has been set by this case, that the DPP will take account of in future cases ... and if it need to be clarified further, I'm sure that this will be done.
Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?
NuMarvel wrote: » This is not retained from the 1871 Act. The 1871 Act makes no reference to aiding, abetting, counselling, or procuring the suicide of another. It only refers to persons who "attempted to commit suicide". The 1993 Act repealed that provision, thereby decriminalising people who attempt suicide, but for the first time making it an offence to assist someone else in their suicide.
NuMarvel wrote: » It is absolutely not "settled law". The jury in her case found her not guilty. A jury's decision is considered a finding of fact, based on the evidence presented, not a finding of law. The results of this case doesn't mean someone else can't be charged or convicted.
Harika wrote: » So what are those good reasons and why don't they apply to other states, especially other European countries?
J C wrote: » The appropriate section of law is as follows:- "A person who aids, abets, counsels or procures the suicide of another, or an attempt by another to commit suicide, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years." This is a retained section from The Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland) Amendment Act, 1871. It's intent is clearly to prevent other people assisting people with suicide ideation going through with their suicide in Ireland ... and absolutely right too.
J C wrote: » The only trial for somebody charged with assisting somebody to travel for euthanasia resulted in the aquittal of the accused ... so I think that the settled law on this is that people have a right to travel to have themselves or their unborn children killed ... a very sad state of affairs for those involved, no doubt ... but the freedom to travel is something that I support ... even though I may not support everything people do, when they travel.
J C wrote: » How does this show that somebody can't travel for Euthanasia to another juristiction?
By comparison, if somebody reported to the gardai that Mary was traveling to euthanize herself, they will act.
volchitsa wrote: » So a real Christian has to vote for a theocracy? No divorce, either of course, and no contraception? Oh and no SSM! And why was it ok to vote for travel for abortion to be allowed, or are all those people going to hell?
Harika wrote: » Not detained but stopped http://www.thejournal.ie/assisted-suicide-a-crime-if-suicide-isnt-2073607-Apr2015/
fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: » Not at all. As a Christian you must obey His Commands.
Akrasia wrote: » So all those times in the bible where 'the lord said to' is written don't count? Moses 'formulated' the laws based on direct instructions from god, like when he commanded that every single one of the Amalekites, man woman and child (and ox etc) be killed without mercy. It is utterly ludicrous that an omnipotent and omniscient god had no choice but to order genocide because 'old testament times were rough indeed'Instead of 'Hardening the heart' of the Pharaoh so that he could continue to unleash his mad plagues on the innocent people of egypt, he could have softened mans hearts to allow them to see the humanity in each other and avoid the thousands of years of brutality and bloodshed that continued long after Jesus and 'the holy spirit' apparently rescued is from such 'rough' times.
NuMarvel wrote: » They couldn't act if Mary was euthanising herself, but they could if she was involved in the euthanisation of someone else. I think the latter is a better example anyway, because from the point of view of those opposed to abortion, both actions involve one person being involved in the ending of the life of a second. Yet, while our laws have harsh penalties for those who assist in euthanasia (up to 14 years in prison), those who arrange abortions overseas not only face no penalties, it is constitutionally impossible to apply penalties.
J C wrote: » Yes, Old Testament times were very rough indeed ... most likely due to the absence of the Holy Spirit from the world ... and it was a 'dog eat dog' ... 'eye for an eye' kind of place ... a hell on earth, if you will ... and it was into that environment that the Mosaic Laws were formulated by Moses. They were desperate laws ... for a desperate situation. Jesus Christ came to save the world from such hardness of heart (and law) ... and He proved that the Law on stoning for adultery, for example, wasn't a law of God ... but a man-made addition to the Seventh Commandment ... when He forgave the woman caught in adultery and told her to go away and sin no more. The only Laws directly given to Mankind by God, in perpetuity, are the 10 Commandments ... and they are the principles by which everyone should live ... if we are to have happy, just and peaceful lives.
J C wrote: » We are not our neighbour's keeper ... so on an individual level, we shouldn't take the law into our own hands and become some kind of vigilantes ... the law is there and the organs of state are there to enforce it. On a state level, we are not our neighbour's keeper either ... and if somebody travels to avail of something that is legal in another juristiction then we cannot and should not stop them doing so. However, just because somebody wants to avail of something that is legal in another state, dosn't mean that we also have to make it legal in our state, if we are opposed to it for very good reasons. That's one of the reasons why states have diiferent laws ... reflective of the ethos and mores of their respective societies values. Even within the one state (the UK) there are very diiferent laws on abortion within each separate legal jusristiction ... for example, in Northern Ireland the law is very similar to our current legal position in the ROI - and very different to the rest of the UK.
endacl wrote: A Christian who is registered to vote can vote any way they like on any issue.
J C wrote: » Have you any examples of somebody being detained by Gardai and prevented travelling to euthanize themselves ?
Cabaal wrote: » I'm not for a ban so it's not upto me to come up with stuff. But I'm sure that many caring Christians can knock some heads together and come up with something. right now if somebody went to the gardai and reported that Mary is going to Manchester for an abortion, the gardai won't act. By comparison, if somebody reported to the gardai that Mary was traveling to euthanize herself, they will act.
EirWatchr wrote: » The "where did Jesus say X" argument again. For that matter, where did Jesus say their are cases where one person's choice could deny another person's right to live?
Apostolic tradition - what the apostles spread as Christian teaching during the 1st century AD - shows that abortion was to be regarded as killing, contrary to the commandments. - The Didache
Akrasia wrote: » Man is not just allowed to kill, he is commanded to kill to fulfill the punishments god directed for a whole range of behaviour that only the most tyranical of regimes would impose capital punishment for. The bible places very very little value on human life
antiskeptic wrote: » Read the verse you cite. Who is the authority acting here?
God has authority to give and take away. All is his afterall. We don't have that authority - at least, we haven't been given it.
As for when life begins? Read Jeremiah 1:5. We are known by God before and whilst he forms us in the womb. It is his act. To abort interferes with his act and destroys the already existing (in his sight, if not on your) personhood.
Harika wrote: » Wait a moment, you say we are not our neighbor's keeper but still we have to put up legislation to stop our neighbors from having abortions because Christians are responsible if a woman wants to have an abortion. Except if she leaves the country, then hands off.
Akrasia wrote: » For all the christians on here, where does the bible or jesus say that the unborn are the same as fully actualised people?
2:1 But the second commandment of the teaching is this. 2:2 Thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not commit adultery; thou shalt not corrupt youth; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use soothsaying; thou shalt not practise sorcery; thou shalt not kill a child by abortion, neither shalt thou slay it when born; thou shalt not covet the goods of thy neighbour;
Akrasia wrote: » What does the bible say about abortion? Well, it does define life as the first breath, so life begins at birth. It describes the reproduction process as a seed in fertile ground, a seed isn't a plant until it germinates, ie, comes above the soil (is born) In the bible, abortion is advocated as a way to solve paternity disputes. Give the woman 'bitter water', if the baby is born, then it is a sign from god that the husband is the father and the woman was not unfaithfulhttps://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.biblegateway.com/passage/%3fsearch=Numbers+5:11-31&version=NIV&interface=amp For all the christians on here, where does the bible or jesus say that the unborn are the same as fully actualised people?
J C wrote: » Man is also allowed to kill in self defense or the defense of others, where no alternative is available. ... and everyone correctly thinks its a good idea to do so ... for example, with an ectopic pregnancy.
volchitsa wrote: » A recent pregnancy test would do it, and an interrogation for any woman who was no longer pregnant when she returned. I mean, if it's killing babies, surely it's worth making an effort to stop it?
Katie Full Leak wrote: » What are you proposing? That we interview every woman of child bearing age on their intentions in leaving the country.
J C wrote: » We are not our neighbour's keeper. All we can do is to do our best (for both women and unborn children) when faced with any decisions we are asked to make on the introduction of abortion into Ireland.
