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Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

J C

I don't believe that a Christian can morally vote for unlimited abortion.

The Sixth Commandment is very simple and very clear ... 'Thou shalt not kill'.

It means that you cannot kill yourself or another Human Being, except in self defence (or the defence of another Human Being) where no other option is available.
This is the basis for all laws protecting the person and criminalising the killing of other people in Common Law Jurisprudence.

Induced abortion is ethically and morally wrong ... except where the life of the mother is directly threatened and there is no other option available to save her.

This is the current law in Ireland.

Voting to expand Irish Law to allow the unlimited killing of unborn children is not something that any Christian (or other monotheist, indeed) can do in conscience and in clear contravention of the Sixth Commandment of God.

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Bubbaclaus

Huntergonzo wrote: »

But there is quite a bit of killing in the bible, sort of makes the sixth commandment a bit redundant or at the very least it's a glaring contradiction. Not sure how christians reconcile this problem.

Let's not forget the mass killing sprees by God himself contained within the bible. Makes his commandments a bit hypocritical.

Doesn't seem like a very nice chap. Find it odd people worship him. If he was a President of a country he would be impeached and likely hung like Saddam.

J C

Harika wrote: »

You shall not kill except he or she is an unrepentant sinner. I didn't learn that in school I have to admit.

Neither did I ... for Humans it always has been 'you shall not kill' unless in self-defense and no alternative is available.

J C

Huntergonzo wrote: »

But there is quite a bit of killing in the bible, sort of makes the sixth commandment a bit redundant or at the very least it's a glaring contradiction. Not sure how christians reconcile this problem.

Of course, fallen Humans don't always obey the laws of God or man ... but that certainly isn't a good reason to repeal them.

Harika

fkx2nspcw9omhg wrote: »

God wiping away unrepentant sinners.

You shall not kill except he or she is an unrepentant sinner. I didn't learn that in school I have to admit.

Harika

J C wrote: »

If it is going to be unrestricted in the first 12 weeks ... how is this also 'far from unrestricted'?
... and if the 8th Amendment is to simply be deleted ... then what is to stop 12 weeks becoming 24 ... or whatever?

A pregnancy lasts 40 weeks, access restricted to only 12 weeks is restricted. Maybe legislation could stop the change to 24 weeks? Me as non Christian and pro choice person I would oppose unrestricted access to abortion past week 12.

J C wrote: »

What are you saying here?
The fertilised egg is alive and Human ... and it remains alive (hopefully) and Human ... until it is 100 ... if its lucky!!

what is the definition of alive?

J C wrote: »

How life originally came about is far from settled ... but how a new life is conceived is fully known to science ... it starts with the ferilisation of an ovum by a sperm ... and proceeds in a tightly specified growth process from there.

Of course, if somebody want to kill it and suffer no legal consequences, they must first remove its personhood, by creating a fiction around its humanity ... and whether it is truly Human or not.

A fetus is not a person and decision is to be made when the fetus becomes a person.

NuMarvel

Lisa Billions Gum wrote: »

Have you seen the wording of the proposed change? Because TDs and Media haven't yet.

And neither has the OP. He's basing the thread on a newspaper article, which was in turn based on the recommendations of the Committee on the 8th. Those recommendations are also what I based my post on.

So while no one has seen the legislation, we are all at least discussing the same source material. And in any case, whatever one may think of the recommendations, I'd say we can all agree the Oireachtas is unlikely to go beyond them when passing legislation.

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Harika wrote:

God himself was not really following this ammendment. Hi Noahs flood, soddom & gomorrah or onan.

God wiping away unrepentant sinners.

J C

Sesame wrote: »

A saved Christian, as in, he/she found God fairly recently and thinks its wonderful and wants to spread hid/her idealogies on us poor souls.

Usually more outspoken and evangelical than any devout RCC supporter. Believes we are all going to hell.

I found Jesus about 20 years ago ... so not fairly recently.
... and I don't believe you are going to Hell ... unless you really want to.

I naturally wish that all might be Saved ... but I'm realistic enough to know that this may not always be possible.

J C

Harika wrote: »

Like I read it he said unrestricted means in the first 12 weeks but that is far from unrestricted in my opinion.

If it is going to be unrestricted in the first 12 weeks ... how is this also 'far from unrestricted'?
... and if the 8th Amendment is to simply be deleted ... then what is to stop 12 weeks becoming 24 ... or whatever?

Harika wrote: »

To come back to the original question, Christians can ask themselves when the embryo is life and set themselves this limit.

What are you saying here?
The fertilised egg is alive and Human ... and it remains alive (hopefully) and Human ... until it is 100 ... if its lucky!!

Harika wrote: »

And contrary to what was said here the science of what life is or what the definition is, is far from settled.

How life originally came about is far from settled ... but how a new life is conceived is fully known to science ... it starts with the ferilisation of an ovum by a sperm ... and proceeds in a tightly specified growth process from there.

Of course, if somebody want to kill it and suffer no legal consequences, they must first remove its personhood, by creating a fiction around its humanity ... and whether it is truly Human or not.

Huntergonzo

J C wrote: »

There is certainly a lot of accounts of killing in the Bible.
... but it is crystal clear that Humans should not kill each other ... the Sixth Commandment couldn't be any clearer ... it simply says 'thou shall not kill'.

But there is quite a bit of killing in the bible, sort of makes the sixth commandment a bit redundant or at the very least it's a glaring contradiction. Not sure how christians reconcile this problem.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

NuMarvel wrote: »

It's not, because accessing abortion without having to give a reason can only happen in the first 12 weeks. The 12 weeks is itself a limit. Anyone who has an abortion after that can only do so for one of the reasons and timeframes that will be set out in legislation.

Have you seen the wording of the proposed change? Because TDs and Media haven't yet.

NuMarvel

J C wrote: »

Never mind the messenger ... is the message correct?

It's not, because accessing abortion without having to give a reason can only happen in the first 12 weeks. The 12 weeks is itself a limit. Anyone who has an abortion after that can only do so for one of the reasons and timeframes that will be set out in legislation.

martingriff

Sesame wrote: »

A saved Christian, as in, he/she found God fairly recently and thinks its wonderful and wants to spread hid/her idealogies on us poor souls.

Usually more outspoken and evangelical than any devout RCC supporter. Believes we are all going to hell.

I was think born again Christian or the latter day saints

martingriff

J C wrote: »

A Saved Christian.

Everyone should be one ... but that's for another thread !!!:)

Yes you said that in the message I quoted. But I was wondering what is a saved Christian. As by what I would believes all Christians are saved. Unless you think you are something different which as you said is a different thread

Harika

Sleeper12 wrote: »

That never stopped the Christian group the KKK from killing

God himself was not really following this ammendment. Hi Noahs flood, soddom & gomorrah or onan.

J C

Huntergonzo wrote: »

I don't personally view abortion as the killing of a human being but presumably a lot of christians do,

... and if you didn't personally think that red was red ... would it make it white?
An unborn child is objectively a Human Being ... at an early stage of growth allright ... but a fully Human Being nonetheless.
Its also totally dependent on its mother for survival ... but then a newborn child is also totally dependent on adult Humans for its survival as well.

Huntergonzo wrote: »

however there are quite a few examples of killing being permitted in the bible, would that not be at odds with a christian being against abortion on moral grounds?

There is certainly a lot of accounts of killing in the Bible.
... but it is crystal clear that Humans should not kill each other ... the Sixth Commandment couldn't be clearer ... it simply says 'thou shall not kill'.

Sesame

martingriff wrote: »

Sorry a what

A saved Christian, as in, he/she found God fairly recently and thinks its wonderful and wants to spread hid/her idealogies on us poor souls.

Usually more outspoken and evangelical than any devout RCC supporter. Believes we are all going to hell.

J C

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

That's an amazing news source you've provided there dude

Never mind the messenger ... is the message correct?

Harika

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Me too. As far as I'm aware the unrestricted abortion idea came from ultra religious organisations trying to tarnish the pro choice movements. I have never heard of anybody suggesting an abortion should be unrestricted.

Like I read it he said unrestricted means in the first 12 weeks but that is far from unrestricted in my opinion. Like their are countries with abortions to a far later date but with a lot of ifs. Like close by a child was born with underdeveloped brain unable to breath, so child was born and died within minutes. To abort here until week 40 would really mean unrestricted imo.
To come back to the original question, Christians can ask themselves when the embryo is life and set themselves this limit. And contrary to what was said here the science of what life is or what the definition is, is far from settled.

J C

martingriff wrote: »

Sorry a what

A Saved Christian.

Everyone should be one ... but that's for another thread !!!:)

J C

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Me too. As far as I'm aware the unrestricted abortion idea came from ultra religious organisations trying to tarnish the pro choice movements. I have never heard of anybody suggesting an abortion should be unrestricted.

Please have a look here, then:-
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-leo-varadkars-concern-over-11831044

Quote:-
"Leo Varadkar has expressed concern about proposals to allow unlimited abortions up to 12 weeks, saying that people have legitimate opinions that this stance may be too liberal.

He said: “It’s fair to say that for a lot of people in the country the proposal to allow for the termination of pregnancy up to 12 weeks went further than many people would have anticipated.”

The Taoiseach was speaking after the Cabinet held a two hour discussion on the recommendations of the Oireachtas special committee on the Eighth Amendment.

Among the committee’s recommendations was one to allow women to decide if they wanted abortions, without restriction, up to 12 weeks into their pregnancy."

martingriff

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Me too. As far as I'm aware the unrestricted abortion idea came from ultra religious organisations trying to tarnish the pro choice movements. I have never heard of anybody suggesting an abortion should be unrestricted.

There are plenty who want unrestricted abortion all be it with a timeframe some up to 24 weeks. I will admit there are a tiny minority who say it will be 12 weeks now it will be 30 odd weeks in a few years

martingriff

J C wrote: »

The irony of it !!!
I'm a Saved Christian ... so what do you want to tease out?

Sorry a what

Ash.J.Williams

J C wrote: »

An extremist for what?

I'm an ordinary Christian man who loves my God ... and my fellow man ... in equal measure.

Its the newspapers who are talking about plans for unlimited abortion ... not me.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-leo-varadkars-concern-over-11831044

That's an amazing news source you've provided there dude

Ash.J.Williams

Water John wrote: »

OP is quite obviously coming from a conservative RCC angle. If he/she openly declared that, I would respect it and have a full discussion to tease out, my own thoughts.

Me too. As far as I'm aware the unrestricted abortion idea came from ultra religious organisations trying to tarnish the pro choice movements. I have never heard of anybody suggesting an abortion should be unrestricted.

martingriff

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

You're a dangerous snide individual... I think my simple question and your answer has outed you as an extremist.

Is that because he called you pro abortion? Because you are what is wrong with that.

Saying that I agree with Water John that JC is hiding his true intentions. If he/she is so strong with there opinion they should just come out and admit it.

I am religious but not sure how I will vote yet but veering towards yes. There was a segment on the news last week in relation to a message from the all Ireland primate. They were talking to people coming out of mass and there were not all the same with there answers. 1 lady said was she did think it would come in and she saw nothing wrong with it and she believed it should not be banned. She had her own opinions and they should be desperate from state

J C

Water John wrote: »

OP is quite obviously coming from a conservative RCC angle. If he/she openly declared that, I would respect it and have a full discussion to tease out, my own thoughts.

The irony of it !!!
I'm a Saved Christian ... so what do you want to tease out with me, now that you know that?

J C

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

You're a dangerous snide individual... I think my simple question and your answer has outed you as an extremist.

An extremist for what?

I'm an ordinary Christian man who loves my God ... and my fellow man ... in equal measure.

It's the newspapers who are talking about plans for unlimited abortion ... not me.
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/politics/taoiseach-leo-varadkars-concern-over-11831044

NuMarvel

J C wrote: »

It is quite clear that if unlimited abortion becomes available that some people will naturally avail of it ... and if you have voted for it you share joint moral responsibility for all such abortions.

"Unlimited abortion" is already available and being availed of, it's just usually carried out elsewhere. And that was something we voted not to block 25 years ago. So a No vote just means that continues.

Plus voting for the status quo means continuing to expose women to greater risk of harm or death. Not just those who travel for an abortion, but women here who experience complications during their pregnancy. An example of this is the woman who died during ectopic surgery in Holles Street two years ago. While the hospital and doctors are absolutely responsible for the effects of the surgery, the problem she had could have been treated with non-invasive options, but the 8th meant she had to have surgery. So the 8th means women will be exposed to the risks of unnecessary surgery.

Conversely, a Yes vote would reduce or eliminate the risks of harm or death. It would bring us in line with our Northern European neighbours, which is one of the safest regions in the world to have an abortion.

So voting No means abortions continue happening, but pregnant women will be exposed to greater risks. A Yes vote means abortions continue happening, but pregnant women will be exposed to fewer risks. If abortions are going to happen anyway, and we don't seem interested in punishing or being able to stop women who currently have abortions, isn't reducing the risks of injury or death to the woman the moral thing to do?

Huntergonzo

I don't personally view abortion as the killing of a human being but presumably a lot of christians do, however there are quite a few examples of killing being permitted in the bible, would that not be at odds with a christian being against abortion on moral grounds?