Enda kenny's legacy as Taoiseach.

filbert the fox wrote: »

I realise that water requires funding from the tax system - it was never free.
When Enda Kenny capitulated on the per litre issue there was only one way that this was going to pan out.

I believe that there should be a charge for water and I agree with metering.

The trouble with something that appears to be free is that it's not valued.

Taxation funds services but the list I included was designed to fund banks.

That's true and they've themselves to blame for that too. I believe, 'we got it for free long enough, it's time we start paying for it' was part of the con. Kenny was happy to go along.

filbert the fox

kbannon wrote: »

In fairness:
* do you object to the establishment of Irish Water (and having to pay for water) or how the politicians from *all* parties could not agree on a funding model to the point that they all ended up breaking it?
* some of your €1bn figure would have been spent on water and sewage services anyhow. Maybe you should remove those costs before moaning.
* in terms of "taxing motorists to pay for water", the costs of public water (excluding private wells and group water schemes) and sewage treatment always came from the exchequer although the funding was never enough to meet the required costs (hence why the system is now so poor). The estimated costs to fix the system are €10bn and this now will have to come from the exchequer. How many houses now won't be built because of this whinging by the populist parties?
* in terms of listing off a range of taxes, what's your point exactly? Do you think a country shouldn't have taxation?

I realise that water requires funding from the tax system - it was never free.
When Enda Kenny capitulated on the per litre issue there was only one way that this was going to pan out.

I believe that there should be a charge for water and I agree with metering.

The trouble with something that appears to be free is that it's not valued.

Taxation funds services but the list I included was designed to fund banks.

Fanny Wank

It'll probably be seen in a reasonably good light in the future but I disagree that it should be. I voted for FG in 2011 as I wanted change - I believe I got more of the same

If the ECB wasn't keeping bond yields down we'd be screwed. I remember a government spokesman ages ago saying something along the lines of "the markets believe in us". No, the markets believe the ECB are back stopping the entire show.

So any "progress" and "achievements" people point to - thank Mario Draghi and not Enda Kenny/FG in my opinion

Tony EH wrote: »

Nobody's "blaming" the government for homelessness. They're criticising them, rightly, for their lack of movement in tackling the issue. They appear clueless in face of the problem and, in fact, appear like they have no intention of dealing with it either, in any way that can be considered serious.

There's a lot shuffling around, kicking up a bit of dust and the problem still escalates.

While they and their followers look to minimise and normalise the crisis, by trying to pretend one doesn't exist, or that the impact is not as serious as it is.

Fine Gael wanted this gig and part of that gig is dealing with social issues such as these. If they aren't prepared to do that, they're going to draw flak. They've been in power for 7 years and all that's happened is a worsening situation under their watch.

"Don't blame the government" doesn't apply.

Again I don't care who pats themselves on the back for tackling things, just that they do. It's the team/point scoring party people who can't seem to grasp the concept of country first.

Kenny came in on a wave of new way to do business no more cronyism, quangos and did a full about face once in. I criticise him for that. That's his legacy. Got a loan, went back to the same business put us there.
If anyone wants to raise up Haughey and he makes a go, I'll applaud him too.

As regards which Taoiseach was best? Back to team playing over country. I'd go Albert Reynolds because he was only in the once and only for two years

ancapailldorcha

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Ye are some lads for avoiding a question. Have ye considered Politics?

Stop posting nonsense like this please.

Ye are some lads for avoiding a question. Have ye considered Politics?

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I'm not downplaying the issue of homelessness at all. I'm saying its point scoring to lay all the blame for a complex problem at the door of government.

Nobody's "blaming" the government for homelessness. They're criticising them, rightly, for their lack of movement in tackling the issue. They appear clueless in face of the problem and, in fact, appear like they have no intention of dealing with it either, in any way that can be considered serious.

There's a lot shuffling around, kicking up a bit of dust and the problem still escalates.

While they and their followers look to minimise and normalise the crisis, by trying to pretend one doesn't exist, or that the impact is not as serious as it is.

Fine Gael wanted this gig and part of that gig is dealing with social issues such as these. If they aren't prepared to do that, they're going to draw flak. They've been in power for 7 years and all that's happened is a worsening situation under their watch.

"Don't blame the government" doesn't apply.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I'm not downplaying the issue of homelessness at all. I'm saying its point scoring to lay all the blame for a complex problem at the door of government.

Back to the question

In the past 40 years, who was a better Taoiseach than Enda Kenny, and why?

Its a straight question, if you have a straight answer I would like to hear it.

Point scoring? These crises worsened under him and continue to do so. Just pointing that out.
Who was a better Taoiseach than Kenny? What's the criteria? Damage done? Number of frauds against the state? Number of crony deals? Disregard for the people? Best whoppers? I need more detail.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We always and do pay for water. I'd issue with the waste on a quango, jobs for 'our own' and contract for Denis O'Brien, a man who is tax resident outside of the state. Is the idea now poor Enda was cajoled into Irish Water? Laughable. It wasn't Fianna Fail shills getting sweet deals and board appointments.
Not to mention Reilly's clinic allocations at the same time. Some man Mr. Kenny was alright :rolleyes:

Very good Matt.

Who was a better Taoiseach in the past 40 years, and why. 3rd time asking.

kbannon wrote: »

In fairness:
* do you object to the establishment of Irish Water (and having to pay for water) or how the politicians from *all* parties could not agree on a funding model to the point that they all ended up breaking it?
* some of your €1bn figure would have been spent on water and sewage services anyhow. Maybe you should remove those costs before moaning.
* in terms of "taxing motorists to pay for water", the costs of public water (excluding private wells and group water schemes) and sewage treatment always came from the exchequer although the funding was never enough to meet the required costs (hence why the system is now so poor). The estimated costs to fix the system are €10bn and this now will have to come from the exchequer. How many houses now won't be built because of this whinging by the populist parties?
* in terms of listing off a range of taxes, what's your point exactly? Do you think a country shouldn't have taxation?

We always and do pay for water. I'd issue with the waste on a quango, jobs for 'our own' and contract for Denis O'Brien, a man who is tax resident outside of the state. All while as some Fine Gaeler put it, 'we were nearly all eating out of bins'. Is the idea now poor Enda was cajoled into Irish Water? Laughable. It wasn't Fianna Fail shills getting sweet deals and board appointments.
Not to mention Reilly's clinic allocations at the same time. Some man Mr. Kenny was alright :rolleyes:

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You can follow Varadkar's lead and fudge/downplay the issue of homelessness all you like. It's associated with 'record breaking dependency on 'emergency' accommodation. And there's always the record breaking numbers on hospital trolleys. Despite how you may weigh the terminology these things are not the mark of a good political leader. He was funnier than Leo, I'll give you that.
The economic recovery is not worth the paper it's written on in the face of these crises. You're codding yourself. He got a loan and told some funny lies.

I'm not downplaying the issue of homelessness at all. I'm saying its point scoring to lay all the blame for a complex problem at the door of government.

Back to the question

In the past 40 years, who was a better Taoiseach than Enda Kenny, and why?

Its a straight question, if you have a straight answer I would like to hear it.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I find it heavily ironic that you'd make a reference to mindless acolytes; while at the same time being happy to blame all the woes of the world on the government. I'd consider that mindless.

As mentioned, I've voted for four different political parties in my lifetime.

Comment above refers to 'record breaking homeless'.

Two points I would make about that.

1. Yes a lot of people are 'homeless' in Dublin. Qualify that though. They are not sleeping on the streets. They are in temporary accomodation. I think the term 'homeless' is bandied about pretty loosely. Not trying to diminish the position of people who are in temporary accomodation; however they have somewhere to stay. The vast majority of the people you describe as 'homeless' are not on the streets, they have somewhere to stay which incidentally is being paid for by the taxpayer.

2. Why is there some much homelessness in Dublin.
In my view there are a few reasons
(I) Because housebuilding fell off a cliff in the late 2000's. Thats a fact. Housebuilding fell from 80'000 a year to 5000 a year. If we had built an extra 10'000 house a year over the past decade - that would be 100'000 house in total- the homeless problem would not be so acute as it is today. There was a general election in 2011. Fine Gael were elected at this election. I did not hear any of the internet crusaders for the homeless calling out for more house to be built at this time. But of course with the wonderful power of hindsight, the government should have done this that and the other.

(II) Moreover - High rents, high house prices and consequently homelessness is something that quite often happens in highly successful cities. There is a homeless problem in London, in San Francisco, in New York. People there have been priced out of the accomodation market. They cant afford to live where they grew up. The same happens in Dublin - and of course here its a the governments fault.

(III) The state supports for welfare dependant people and low income people are absolutely huge here. People on HAP schemes quite frequently are in a position to pay rents of EUR1500-2000 per month. They are in a stronger position in the rental market than professionals who have skilled themselves up and are earning 50k/60k per annum.

So lets over look the fact that the economy has recovered from a precipice, that we are at full employment, that skilled workers are coming here from all over the world because of the healthy state of our economy - and lets just concentrate on the fact that because a natural consequence of strong economic performance is rising house prices, therefore some people find it difficult to afford rent.

Maybe you'd prefer we all went back to low wages, working in tshirt factories, and the lowest house prices in Europe. That would certainly solve the 'homeless' problem.

Again, to my earlier point - who was a better Taoiseach?

You can follow Varadkar's lead and fudge/downplay the issue of homelessness all you like. It's associated with 'record breaking dependency on 'emergency' accommodation. And there's always the record breaking numbers on hospital trolleys. Despite how you may weigh the terminology these things are at record breaking point and are not the mark of a good political leader. He was funnier than Leo, I'll give you that. You are using the old rhetoric of people on streets being a gauge. It's a much broader problem. People who work are in need of state hand outs.
The economic recovery is not worth the paper it's written on in the face of these crises. You're codding yourself. He got a loan and told some funny lies.

Seth Brundle

filbert the fox wrote: »

Ahem, spending €1,000,000,000 of taxpayers money on a white elephant called Irish Water is not a major scandal?! HELLO?

Have we forgotten already that the redundant water meters cost €750,000,000 alone. How many houses could've been built for that money?
Because Enda Kenny blinked after setting the per litre charge for water we are now taxing motorists to pay for water.

The recovery happened not thanks to Mr. Kenny but because those of us who braved it out had to pay new taxes. And just in case you forgot:

Pension Levy
Household Charge
USC
Income Levy
Property Tax
NPPR
Water Charges
Vat increase
Vastly reduced inheritance tax threshold
PRSI and USC on Rental Income

:mad:

In fairness:
* do you object to the establishment of Irish Water (and having to pay for water) or how the politicians from *all* parties could not agree on a funding model to the point that they all ended up breaking it?
* some of your €1bn figure would have been spent on water and sewage services anyhow. Maybe you should remove those costs before moaning.
* in terms of "taxing motorists to pay for water", the costs of public water (excluding private wells and group water schemes) and sewage treatment always came from the exchequer although the funding was never enough to meet the required costs (hence why the system is now so poor). The estimated costs to fix the system are €10bn and this now will have to come from the exchequer. How many houses now won't be built because of this whinging by the populist parties?
* in terms of listing off a range of taxes, what's your point exactly? Do you think a country shouldn't have taxation?

leestone

filbert the fox wrote: »

Ahem, spending €1,000,000,000 of taxpayers money on a white elephant called Irish Water is not a major scandal?! HELLO?

Have we forgotten already that the redundant water meters cost €750,000,000 alone. How many houses could've been built for that money?
Because Enda Kenny blinked after setting the per litre charge for water we are now taxing motorists to pay for water.

The recovery happened not thanks to Mr. Kenny but because those of us who braved it out had to pay new taxes. And just in case you forgot:

Pension Levy
Household Charge
USC
Income Levy
Property Tax
NPPR
Water Charges
Vat increase
Vastly reduced inheritance tax threshold
PRSI and USC on Rental Income

:mad:

Irish water was a Fianna Fáil item wheels of it were turning by the time Enda was elected.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I find it heavily ironic that you'd make a reference to mindless acolytes; while at the same time being happy to blame all the woes of the world on the government.

Yeh. Because that's what I did.

:rolleyes:

"All the woes of the world".

FFS.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Yes a lot of people are 'homeless' in Dublin. Qualify that though.

Without fixed abode is the usual qualifier and has been for years.

filbert the fox wrote: »

Ahem, spending €1,000,000,000 of taxpayers money on a white elephant called Irish Water is not a major scandal?! HELLO?

Have we forgotten already that the redundant water meters cost €750,000,000 alone. How many houses could've been built for that money?
Because Enda Kenny blinked after setting the per litre charge for water we are now taxing motorists to pay for water.

The recovery happened not thanks to Mr. Kenny but because those of us who braved it out had to pay new taxes. And just in case you forgot:

Pension Levy
Household Charge
USC
Income Levy
Property Tax
NPPR
Water Charges
Vat increase
Vastly reduced inheritance tax threshold
PRSI and USC on Rental Income

:mad:

Fine - everything that goes wrong = governments fault.

Everything that goes right = nothing to do with government.

Greece and Italy jacked up taxes just as much as we did - are they recovering? Are they at full employment? You think we recovering because our taxpayers 'bore the brunt' and theirs didnt...... sorry.

Simple question - who was a better Taoiseach in past 40 years; and why.

filbert the fox

Nody wrote: »

No major **** up, no major controversy or scandal in the scheme of things and the Irish economy had a decent enough recovery under his leadership (not going to go into the debate how much was due to him or circumstances outside his control) so yea, overall I'd say it will be positive and bland overall picture in the books.

Ahem, spending €1,000,000,000 of taxpayers money on a white elephant called Irish Water is not a major scandal?! HELLO?

Have we forgotten already that the redundant water meters cost €750,000,000 alone. How many houses could've been built for that money?
Because Enda Kenny blinked after setting the per litre charge for water we are now taxing motorists to pay for water.

The recovery happened not thanks to Mr. Kenny but because those of us who braved it out had to pay new taxes. And just in case you forgot:

Pension Levy
Household Charge
USC
Income Levy
Property Tax
NPPR
Water Charges
Vat increase
Vastly reduced inheritance tax threshold
PRSI and USC on Rental Income

:mad:

Tony EH wrote: »

None of that matters to mindless acolytes though.

Sure, there are still FF'ers floating around who'll claim that Charlie was a great Taoiseach.

I find it heavily ironic that you'd make a reference to mindless acolytes; while at the same time being happy to blame all the woes of the world on the government. I'd consider that mindless.

As mentioned, I've voted for four different political parties in my lifetime.

Comment above refers to 'record breaking homeless'.

Two points I would make about that.

1. Yes a lot of people are 'homeless' in Dublin. Qualify that though. They are not sleeping on the streets. They are in temporary accomodation. I think the term 'homeless' is bandied about pretty loosely. Not trying to diminish the position of people who are in temporary accomodation; however they have somewhere to stay. The vast majority of the people you describe as 'homeless' are not on the streets, they have somewhere to stay which incidentally is being paid for by the taxpayer.

2. Why is there some much homelessness in Dublin.
In my view there are a few reasons
(I) Because housebuilding fell off a cliff in the late 2000's. Thats a fact. Housebuilding fell from 80'000 a year to 5000 a year. If we had built an extra 10'000 house a year over the past decade - that would be 100'000 house in total- the homeless problem would not be so acute as it is today. There was a general election in 2011. Fine Gael were elected at this election. I did not hear any of the internet crusaders for the homeless calling out for more house to be built at this time. But of course with the wonderful power of hindsight, the government should have done this that and the other.

(II) Moreover - High rents, high house prices and consequently homelessness is something that quite often happens in highly successful cities. There is a homeless problem in London, in San Francisco, in New York. People there have been priced out of the accomodation market. They cant afford to live where they grew up. The same happens in Dublin - and of course here its a the governments fault.

(III) The state supports for welfare dependant people and low income people are absolutely huge here. People on HAP schemes quite frequently are in a position to pay rents of EUR1500-2000 per month. They are in a stronger position in the rental market than professionals who have skilled themselves up and are earning 50k/60k per annum.

So lets over look the fact that the economy has recovered from a precipice, that we are at full employment, that skilled workers are coming here from all over the world because of the healthy state of our economy - and lets just concentrate on the fact that because a natural consequence of strong economic performance is rising house prices, therefore some people find it difficult to afford rent.

Maybe you'd prefer we all went back to low wages, working in tshirt factories, and the lowest house prices in Europe. That would certainly solve the 'homeless' problem.

Again, to my earlier point - who was a better Taoiseach?

None of that matters to mindless acolytes though.

Sure, there are still FF'ers floating around who'll claim that Charlie was a great Taoiseach.

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I would say he is the best Taoiseach in my lifetime. And am saying that as someone who has given first preferences to 4 different political parties over time.

Reason I say it - is when I look at his track record - and compare it to Jack Lynch, Charlie, Garrett, Albert, John Bruton, Bertie and Brian Cowen - I simply think govt performance was stronger for a sustained period of time under his stewardship than any of the others.

Of course you can look at gaffs he has made and laugh at him. I'm looking at govt performance under his stewardship, and comparing it to others. I dont think there is any other way he should be judged.

Record breaking homeless crisis, record breaking dependency on 'emergency' accommodation. Record breaking numbers on hospital trolleys. Lying to make himself look good.

I would say he is the best Taoiseach in my lifetime. And am saying that as someone who has given first preferences to 4 different political parties over time.

Reason I say it - is when I look at his track record - and compare it to Jack Lynch, Charlie, Garrett, Albert, John Bruton, Bertie and Brian Cowen - I simply think govt performance was stronger for a sustained period of time under his stewardship than any of the others.

Of course you can look at gaffs he has made and laugh at him. I'm looking at govt performance under his stewardship, and comparing it to others. I dont think there is any other way he should be judged.

Arthur Daley

Just a very seasoned Irish politician, with everything that entails. He served his masters well and didn't rock any of those boats. A survivor in the system.

expectationlost

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I think he made a great speech in the D in regards to the Cloyne report, which probably wasn't easy for him to make given him being a practicing Catholic, but it was a speech that needed to be made by the leader of the country.

ask how the victims feel now

Creol1

I saw him as a Ronald Reagan style figure, a nice face for the people really in charge to present to the public. The lights were on, but there was no-one behind the wheel. The moment in the 2011 leaders' debate when he tried to extricate himself from questions about his economic policy by telling people to go to www.finegael.ie just about summed him up. His finest hour was facing down Richard Bruton in 2010 to save his own skin, not anything he did on behalf of the country.

He rode in on a wave of lies and secured a loan.
I recall the evening after the twin towers fell, people were saying that was it, there'll be no more IRA, no more terrorism. This will be the pinnacle. The epic event to end it all. The same too was the sentiment with many regarding the state of the country. That's it now, people have had enough. The bottom has truly fallen out. The economic system has failed, the cronyism has destroyed us. We've a clear slate to start anew.
Fine Gael and Kenny jumped in on this. Their manifesto at the time hit all the right markers. 'An end to cronyism' 'a change in the way we do business', he'd sort out the hospital trolleys. He'd already said property tax was wrong and he wanted no more quangos. Any talk of the public 'going mad' as a major cause was disgraceful. It was the perfect time to overhaul everything. The people knew that and Kenny promised it.
He didn't fail. I believe the true Fine Gael plan played out nicely. We'd cronyism, a quango, sweet deals and a blind eye to Garda corruption. Also it turns out, 'we partied'.
I believe the NAMA stories may come out, but the current FG boys will be long retired.

In short, Kenny could have been a patriot, the man to fix the way we do business. But he chose more of the same. And we've Varadkar on auto pilot grinning smugly as we go deeper into record breaking crises.

Red_Wake

History will be kind to him. He'll prob go down as the political equivalent of Big Sam, due to his history of taking entities in crisis and rebuilding them.

As a FG leader, he took a party which had been eviscerated in the 2002 election, and rebuilt them to the point of going into government, within 5 years[admittedly they benefited politically from the outbreak of the global financial crisis, but lost relatively little political support over the years,m despite their implementation of austerity].

As a Taoiseach, he oversaw the fixing of the state finances. Some people will try to rewrite history and play down his achievements by saying that either the hard work had been done or that he was just following the EU script, but the fact remains that Ireland had the fastest and most effective recovery of all the PIIGS, and with a minimum of civil unrest or political turmoil.