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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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volchitsa

Tigger wrote: »

ive never been an internal combustion engine but i understand how they work and the processes involved
so to say i cant understand pregnency without being pregnant is; i donno justvwrong insuppose.

Actually, this post is very telling.

Knowing how a pregnancy occurs and develops is very different from knowing what being pregnant is like. Nobody discussing combustion engines expects the discussion to delve into how the combustion engine feels. For obvious reasons.

Well, I'd have thought it was obvious anyway.

eviltwin

Tigger wrote: »

ive never been an internal combustion engine but i understand how they work and the processes involved
so to say i cant understand pregnency without being pregnant is; i donno justvwrong insuppose.

Are you comparing women to objects now? Interesting you chose to compare a pregnant woman to a machine rather than pick another of the many human experiences.

One eyed Jack

January wrote: »

No bias here. Men have a very important voice in the repeal the 8th debate. I'm not disputing that at all. Just that it's very telling that it's mostly men voicing their opinion on this thread. I don't believe there are more women than men who are pro life though. Not from what I've seen over the past couple of years in person and online.

Why are women more opposed to abortion?

Gender doesn’t explain abortion views, and abortion policy doesn’t explain Republicans Gender Gap

Now to be fair to you, the latest Gallup poll done in 2015 does show a higher percentage of women are pro-choice than men in previous years -

Americans Choose "Pro-Choice" for First Time in Seven Years

Americans divide 50% "pro-choice," 44% "pro-life" on abortion
Majority of women, 54%, now pro-choice, vs. 46% of men
Pro-choice ID among Democrats has swelled since 2001

But I would.suggest that has more to do with their political affiliation than their gender tbh.

Having said that, if I were to go on my own personal experience, then I would say that of those men I knew who claimed to be pro-choice, it was more to do with the fact that they were thinking of themselves and the financial implications for themselves if they were ever to impregnate a woman, than any thoughts for the welfare of any woman in question.

I've also known women who were vehemently pro-choice online, but offline they would be pro-life, and then of course there are women who are pro-life all their lives, but when actually in that situation, they decided to have an abortion. I know there was an article earlier in the thread about medical professionals who were giving their opinions of women who were pro-life who wanted an abortion, but honestly my own personal point of view on that is I'm not going to point fingers at those women either, as I think that's just as wrong as those women pointing fingers at other women who have decided to have an abortion.

mzungu

January wrote: »

No bias here. Men have a very important voice in the repeal the 8th debate. I'm not disputing that at all. Just that it's very telling that it's mostly men voicing their opinion on this thread. I don't believe there are more women than men who are pro life though. Not from what I've seen over the past couple of years in person and online.

Red C poll from two years back shows things are pretty much even. Other polls from the US and UK show roughly similar, with slightly more women being in favour.

masculinist

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Men in general are good at controlling women and their bodies,

Sure that's their raison d'etre mostly if they haven't succeeded in other ways.

Some might respond that women are really good in general at controlling mens wallets - both personally and politically utilizing the force of the state

One eyed Jack

masculinist wrote: »

Some might respond that women are really good in general at controlling mens wallets - both personally and politically utilizing the force of the state

While I don't agree with Spanish Eyes comment, I find your response to it even more bizarre, as though you're suggesting that two wrongs make a right. Men who try to control women or their bodies, or try to control women in any way, are very much in a minority in Irish society, and I don't know how you can justify at all your comment about some men who would say that women are really good at all, never mind in general, at control men's wallets, either personally, or using the force of the State. The men who would say that though are also, thankfully, very much in a minority in Irish society.

rainbow kirby

end of the road wrote: »

quite a bit of vitrial in the uk i believe (if protesting outside clynics fits your description of vitrial

The average person here has a broadly pro-choice stance, after 50 years of the Abortion Act being in place it's generally accepted as an option and a matter of individual choice. There have been a few Tory attempts to bring the gestational limit down to 20 weeks but they have been shot down every time.

The clinic protesters are rightly seen as extremists, are affiliated with groups like SPUC, the Good Counsel Network or 40 Days for Life and there is generally broad support for measures taken against them.

One eyed Jack

rainbow kirby wrote: »

The clinic protesters are rightly seen as extremists, are affiliated with groups like SPUC, the Good Counsel Network or 40 Days for Life and there is generally broad support for measures taken against them.

Yeah I too would see protesters as extremists and I would support any action being taken against them, as I don't believe anyone should be intimidated and harassed no matter whether or not I agree or disagree with their decision that they've made for themselves.

I remember one council, I think it was Ealing, taking legal action to have protesters barred from protesting outside clinics -

Ban on protests outside abortion clinic gets backing from MPs

I could imagine the same would eventually have to happen here if the 8th were repealed.

January

Tigger wrote: »

ive never been an internal combustion engine but i understand how they work and the processes involved
so to say i cant understand pregnency without being pregnant is; i donno justvwrong insuppose.

Come back to me when you've felt a doctor rummaging around your uterus through your abdomen to pull your baby out of you. It's a very, unique, feeling.

pilly

end of the road wrote:

it's not other people's job to do your work for you. if you believe i'm wrong, tell me yourself.

Okay you're wrong.

Annasopra

January wrote: »

It's very obvious that the majority (possibly even all except one) of anti choice voices on this thread are men.

Its quite telling.

As I said earlier I find it quite fascinating.

Da Boss

The hypocrisy of the so-called pro choice contingent baffles me to say the least. If they were really pro choice why is it they are denying babies right to a life, surely if they pro choice they’d allow the baby enter this world and make the choice themselves????

Da Boss

And the tactics and stunts From the so called pro choice side and rotten and stink to the core. Anybody with a pro life view is ridiculed, mocked, silenced ,and intimidated . They are trying to silence all pro lifers and trying to associate them
With the Catholic Church, labeling them
As backwards country fools to try trick them into in voting pro choice as if it’s the “cool” thing to do

frag420

Da Boss wrote: »

The hypocrisy of the so-called pro choice contingent baffles me to say the least. If they were really pro choice why is it they are denying babies right to a life, surely if they pro choice they’d allow the baby enter this world and make the choice themselves????

Wait, did I read that right? You want to deny a woman choice over her bodyily autonomy so that she can have a baby and then you are going to offer choice to the baby if it wants to live or not?

So tell me oh knowledgeable one, how are you going to know what the baby wants? You can’t ask it questions becaise it’s a new born baby and it can’t think for itself, talk or indeed understand a word your saying!? What do you propose, if it cries it wants to live perhaps?

Perhaps someone like yourself could take care of the child until it’s in a position to make such a decision as you seem to want all the babies to be born regardless of if it’s into poverty, abuse etc, so long as it’s born?!

Akrasia

Da Boss wrote: »

The hypocrisy of the so-called pro choice contingent baffles me to say the least. If they were really pro choice why is it they are denying babies right to a life, surely if they pro choice they’d allow the baby enter this world and make the choice themselves????

What? So when the baby is born, we ask it if it wants to be aborted before it became a baby?

You don't have a clue what you're talking about

frag420

Da Boss wrote: »

And the tactics and stunts From the so called pro choice side and rotten and stink to the core. Anybody with a pro life view is ridiculed, mocked, silenced ,and intimidated . They are trying to silence all pro lifers and trying to associate them
With the Catholic Church, labeling them
As backwards country fools to try trick them into in voting pro choice as if it’s the “cool” thing to do

Well if you really believe in your stance as pro life then stop being a wuss as the babies need real men to fight for their lives, not people who moan about how they are being labelled or how people rightly view them as backward!

The very fact you think you’re fellow pro lifers can be tricked into being pro choice based on how they perceive others see them is pathetic and shows how weak you and your arguments really are!! You have no confidence in yourself or your fellow pro lifers....sad really!!

Annasopra

January wrote: »

The loudest voices in the Irish abortion debate seem to be being shipped in from America... There was a campaign during the summer last year for families to host' pro life' visitors so they could campaign door to door. It's no wonder the debate here mirrors the states if thats the tactics they're using.

Yeah and lots and lots of American dollars will be spent on pro life advertising on facebook and twitter. Of course the pro life campaign wont object to that at all. Its only when they dont like what the message funds they complain.

Annasopra

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'll agree with that alright, but I would also point out the tactics of Amnesty Ireland in refusing to hand back funding they received from George Soros. At least the ARC did hand back any funding they received. I wouldn't just look at one side and say "look what they're doing", both sides of the issue are playing politics in an attempt to influence Irish society.

The pro life campaigners in Ireland wont even take money. They will get the Americans to fund direct campaigning in order to circumvent the law.

One eyed Jack

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

As I said earlier I find it quite fascinating.

Genuine question, given this is actually what you said earlier -

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It fascinates me how much men on both sides feel they must have a say.

Why would you find it fascinating at all no matter how many men on either side felt they must have a say in a Constitutional issue which will not only affect women, but it will affect men and children and future generations of Irish society too?

I just don't get why you'd imagine anyone shouldn't be interested in an issue which directly influences their lives and the lives of their children and future generations.

Da Boss

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

How do you feel about the tactics and stunts from the pro-life side? Telling people they're baby killers and should be going to jail, never mind the fact that plenty of the people you lot say that to are already traumatised enough.

The truth hurts sometimes

Da Boss

Akrasia wrote: »

What? So when the baby is born, we ask it if it wants to be aborted before it became a baby?

You don't have a clue what you're talking about

Well yee pro choicers are denying the baby it’s right to life, not giving it the option to live the one life they have on this earth

volchitsa

Da Boss wrote: »

Well yee pro choicers are denying the baby it’s right to life, not giving it the option to live the one life they have on this earth

That's equally true every time someone has sex using contraceptives. So what?
Uncontrolled reproduction isn't actually a good thing, despite what the bible tells man to do.

Da Boss

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Like the truth you can't kill something that hasn't been born?[/QUOTE. To kill(verb)- the act of ending ones life. I’m pretty sure abortion does that so yes it’s killing, it’s murder, and that’s the truth

Hannibal_Smith

Da Boss wrote: »

The hypocrisy of the so-called pro choice contingent baffles me to say the least. If they were really pro choice why is it they are denying babies right to a life, surely if they pro choice they’d allow the baby enter this world and make the choice themselves????

You would ask a baby whether they want to be aborted? How would the baby communicate their decision to you?. And in the intervening period the woman is forced to be an incubator against her wishes.

Da Boss

volchitsa wrote: »

That's equally true every time someone has sex using contraceptives. So what?
Uncontrolled reproduction isn't actually a good thing, despite what the bible tells man to do.

No it’s not and you know that well. The baby is not yet conceived so no it not ending a life

[Deleted User]

Da Boss wrote: »

To kill(verb)- the act of ending ones life. I’m pretty sure abortion does that so yes it’s killing, it’s murder, and that’s the truth

You do realise the law disagrees with you right?

NuMarvel

Da Boss wrote: »

The hypocrisy of the so-called pro choice contingent baffles me to say the least.

I'm not surprised that the pro choice position baffles you. You have absolutely no intention of understanding it; your whole stance is based on not understanding it or even giving it a fair hearing. Instead, you spend your time on the thread being intentionally provocative and disruptive by shouting about murder and killing, and so on.

If you truly want to comprehend the repeal point of view, try engaging constructively with other posters and listening to what they have to say. I don't expect that you'll do this, but who knows, maybe you'll surprise us.

volchitsa

Da Boss wrote: »

No it’s not and you know that well. The baby is not yet conceived so no it not ending a life

You're preventing a unique person from coming into the world all the same.

If you want to claim that the difference is because you think there's a baby there from the moment of conception then there are all sorts of problems with that, like why it's legal to destroy IVF embryos, or why we don't have official inquests into miscarriages, or why we don't sue women whose babies are born with fetal alcohol syndrome etc etc.

Quite clearly the law doesn't consider that there is an actual baby present. And nor should it IMO. Because there isn't, for a large part of the pregnancy.

.......

This post has been deleted.

end of the road

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yeah I too would see protesters as extremists and I would support any action being taken against them, as I don't believe anyone should be intimidated and harassed no matter whether or not I agree or disagree with their decision that they've made for themselves.

I remember one council, I think it was Ealing, taking legal action to have protesters barred from protesting outside clinics -

Ban on protests outside abortion clinic gets backing from MPs

I could imagine the same would eventually have to happen here if the 8th were repealed.

wouldn't work though. any protest banns are usually defied, and tbh rightly so. as much as intimidation is wrong, any protest banns are against democracy and must be defied at any cost.