The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

Tigger wrote: »

ive never been an internal combustion engine but i understand how they work and the processes involved
so to say i cant understand pregnency without being pregnant is; i donno justvwrong insuppose.

Come back to me when you've felt a doctor rummaging around your uterus through your abdomen to pull your baby out of you. It's a very, unique, feeling.

rainbow kirby wrote: »

The clinic protesters are rightly seen as extremists, are affiliated with groups like SPUC, the Good Counsel Network or 40 Days for Life and there is generally broad support for measures taken against them.

Yeah I too would see protesters as extremists and I would support any action being taken against them, as I don't believe anyone should be intimidated and harassed no matter whether or not I agree or disagree with their decision that they've made for themselves.

I remember one council, I think it was Ealing, taking legal action to have protesters barred from protesting outside clinics -

Ban on protests outside abortion clinic gets backing from MPs

I could imagine the same would eventually have to happen here if the 8th were repealed.

rainbow kirby

end of the road wrote: »

quite a bit of vitrial in the uk i believe (if protesting outside clynics fits your description of vitrial

The average person here has a broadly pro-choice stance, after 50 years of the Abortion Act being in place it's generally accepted as an option and a matter of individual choice. There have been a few Tory attempts to bring the gestational limit down to 20 weeks but they have been shot down every time.

The clinic protesters are rightly seen as extremists, are affiliated with groups like SPUC, the Good Counsel Network or 40 Days for Life and there is generally broad support for measures taken against them.

masculinist wrote: »

Some might respond that women are really good in general at controlling mens wallets - both personally and politically utilizing the force of the state

While I don't agree with Spanish Eyes comment, I find your response to it even more bizarre, as though you're suggesting that two wrongs make a right. Men who try to control women or their bodies, or try to control women in any way, are very much in a minority in Irish society, and I don't know how you can justify at all your comment about some men who would say that women are really good at all, never mind in general, at control men's wallets, either personally, or using the force of the State. The men who would say that though are also, thankfully, very much in a minority in Irish society.

masculinist

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Men in general are good at controlling women and their bodies,

Sure that's their raison d'etre mostly if they haven't succeeded in other ways.

Some might respond that women are really good in general at controlling mens wallets - both personally and politically utilizing the force of the state

mzungu

January wrote: »

No bias here. Men have a very important voice in the repeal the 8th debate. I'm not disputing that at all. Just that it's very telling that it's mostly men voicing their opinion on this thread. I don't believe there are more women than men who are pro life though. Not from what I've seen over the past couple of years in person and online.

Red C poll from two years back shows things are pretty much even. Other polls from the US and UK show roughly similar, with slightly more women being in favour.

January wrote: »

No bias here. Men have a very important voice in the repeal the 8th debate. I'm not disputing that at all. Just that it's very telling that it's mostly men voicing their opinion on this thread. I don't believe there are more women than men who are pro life though. Not from what I've seen over the past couple of years in person and online.

Why are women more opposed to abortion?

Gender doesn’t explain abortion views, and abortion policy doesn’t explain Republicans Gender Gap

Now to be fair to you, the latest Gallup poll done in 2015 does show a higher percentage of women are pro-choice than men in previous years -

Americans Choose "Pro-Choice" for First Time in Seven Years

Americans divide 50% "pro-choice," 44% "pro-life" on abortion
Majority of women, 54%, now pro-choice, vs. 46% of men
Pro-choice ID among Democrats has swelled since 2001

But I would.suggest that has more to do with their political affiliation than their gender tbh.

Having said that, if I were to go on my own personal experience, then I would say that of those men I knew who claimed to be pro-choice, it was more to do with the fact that they were thinking of themselves and the financial implications for themselves if they were ever to impregnate a woman, than any thoughts for the welfare of any woman in question.

I've also known women who were vehemently pro-choice online, but offline they would be pro-life, and then of course there are women who are pro-life all their lives, but when actually in that situation, they decided to have an abortion. I know there was an article earlier in the thread about medical professionals who were giving their opinions of women who were pro-life who wanted an abortion, but honestly my own personal point of view on that is I'm not going to point fingers at those women either, as I think that's just as wrong as those women pointing fingers at other women who have decided to have an abortion.

eviltwin

Tigger wrote: »

ive never been an internal combustion engine but i understand how they work and the processes involved
so to say i cant understand pregnency without being pregnant is; i donno justvwrong insuppose.

Are you comparing women to objects now? Interesting you chose to compare a pregnant woman to a machine rather than pick another of the many human experiences.

volchitsa

Tigger wrote: »

ive never been an internal combustion engine but i understand how they work and the processes involved
so to say i cant understand pregnency without being pregnant is; i donno justvwrong insuppose.

Actually, this post is very telling.

Knowing how a pregnancy occurs and develops is very different from knowing what being pregnant is like. Nobody discussing combustion engines expects the discussion to delve into how the combustion engine feels. For obvious reasons.

Well, I'd have thought it was obvious anyway.

Bannasidhe

Tigger wrote: »

ive never been an internal combustion engine but i understand how they work and the processes involved
so to say i cant understand pregnency without being pregnant is; i donno justvwrong insuppose.

I'm sorry but that is a ridiculous statement.

It's akin to me saying I don't have a penis but I have seen penii and therefore I know what an erection feels like.

NO. I Don't.
I can imagine but how the hell do I know if my imagining it correct?

Unless you have been pregnant one cannot possibly know what it feels like to be pregnant - and (this bit will blow your mind) not all pregnancies are the same.
In fact, the same woman can experience different pregnancies differently.

Tigger

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Men in general are good at controlling women and their bodies,

Sure that's their raison d'etre mostly if they haven't succeeded in other ways.

this post is very telling

Tigger

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The day a man gets pregnant and gives birth and might suffer all the associated health issues is the day I will say OK man.

Men have no idea what is involved in being pregnant, but some of them try to tell women all about it.

And the biggest idiot in all this is Ronan Mullen. But he is a woman hater, sorry forgot that bit about him.

ive never been an internal combustion engine but i understand how they work and the processes involved
so to say i cant understand pregnency without being pregnant is; i donno justvwrong insuppose.

end of the road

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Men in general are good at controlling women and their bodies,

Sure that's their raison d'etre mostly if they haven't succeeded in other ways.

that's rather unfair. some men maybe like that but we all aren't. anyway that argument was done on another thread, best we don't go back there IMO.

Loafing Oaf

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

And the resulting problem is? I have never heard of any trouble WRT to Italy and its abortion laws, or any other country either. And that includes Britain where as you know, we export our abortions to. So blinkered

I guess people will move on and that's that. Like the same sex marriage ref.

This is why I suspect a lot of people in FF and FG who don't have strong convictions on the issue might be attracted by the idea of settling the issue in one feel swoop with a referendum to introduce 'abortion on demand', getting it off the political agenda for good...They might even vote against the legislation safe in the knowledge that it will pass...

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Quite telling in what way? It doesn't tell anything other than your own bias is showing. There are far more women who are pro-life/anti-choice/pro-birth, whatever label you want, than men, and there are far more men than women on this thread anyway.

Your post kinda reminds me of that woman in the video earlier who was telling men to know their place and claiming that Savita was a rich woman who could have gone to England but was killed by racism and sexism in this fùcking country. I suppose depending upon ones perspective, what she said was true too.

No bias here. Men have a very important voice in the repeal the 8th debate. I'm not disputing that at all. Just that it's very telling that it's mostly men voicing their opinion on this thread. I don't believe there are more women than men who are pro life though. Not from what I've seen over the past couple of years in person and online.

Men in general are good at controlling women and their bodies,

Sure that's their raison d'etre mostly if they haven't succeeded in other ways.

January wrote: »

The loudest voices in the Irish abortion debate seem to be being shipped in from America... There was a campaign during the summer last year for families to host' pro life' visitors so they could campaign door to door. It's no wonder the debate here mirrors the states if thats the tactics they're using.

I'll agree with that alright, but I would also point out the tactics of Amnesty Ireland in refusing to hand back funding they received from George Soros. At least the ARC did hand back any funding they received. I wouldn't just look at one side and say "look what they're doing", both sides of the issue are playing politics in an attempt to influence Irish society.

end of the road

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

And the biggest idiot in all this is Ronan Mullen. But he is a woman hater, sorry forgot that bit about him.

on what basis is he a woman hater?
lets say he is, then he is very very wrong, no question, and he needs to change his view quick.

January wrote: »

It's very obvious that the majority (possibly even all except one) of anti choice voices on this thread are men.

Its quite telling.

Quite telling in what way? It doesn't tell anything other than your own bias is showing. There are far more women who are pro-life/anti-choice/pro-birth, whatever label you want, than men, and there are far more men than women on this thread anyway.

Your post kinda reminds me of that woman in the video earlier who was telling men to know their place and claiming that Savita was a rich woman who could have gone to England but was killed by racism and sexism in this fùcking country. I suppose depending upon ones perspective, what she said was true too.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're joking surely? Abortion is legal in the US, and there's plenty of vitriol on both sides there, not unlike the vitriol on both sides here.

The loudest voices in the Irish abortion debate seem to be being shipped in from America... There was a campaign during the summer last year for families to host' pro life' visitors so they could campaign door to door. It's no wonder the debate here mirrors the states if thats the tactics they're using.

Loafing Oaf

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're joking surely? Abortion is legal in the US, and there's plenty of vitriol on both sides there, not unlike the vitriol on both sides here.

The exception that proves the rule. There is a consensus in favour of liberal abortion laws in most western democracies, and the issue attracts very little controversy.

It's very obvious that the majority (possibly even all except one) of anti choice voices on this thread are men.

Its quite telling.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The Southern States are all god and stuff, Church is everything, but with rifles in their back pockets.

I doubt they are really Christian tbh.

I don't doubt that they're Christian at all tbh, they just have a different perspective on Christianity than you or I do, that very small few at least, because I wouldn't be one to tar everyone with the same brush. I've no doubt most of them are actually grand

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're joking surely? Abortion is legal in the US, and there's plenty of vitriol on both sides there, not unlike the vitriol on both sides here.

The Southern States are all god and stuff, Church is everything, but with rifles in their back pockets.

I doubt they are really Christian tbh.

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Well the Pope technically has his own independent country and Italy is technically a secular republic. But re your central point, I suppose the general expectation is we will be like those countries as regards abortion if the referendum passes, just as we already are re divorce, gay marriage, etc...

And the resulting problem is? I have never heard of any trouble WRT to Italy and its abortion laws, or any other country either. And that includes Britain where as you know, we export our abortions to. So blinkered

I guess people will move on and that's that. Like the same sex marriage ref.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

What about all those countries with legal abortion now? Where is all the vitriol regarding their abortion laws? None AFAIS. I will stand corrected though.

You're joking surely? Abortion is legal in the US, and there's plenty of vitriol on both sides there, not unlike the vitriol on both sides here.