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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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One eyed Jack

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just an offside comment.

Would I be totally wrong to say that men should not have any input into the lives of pregnant women and their babies WRT abortion and their lives/health? Should be a medical decision with the ob/gyn only.

You'd be very wrong, as any referendum is a Constitutional issue, where anyone who is eligible has a say in the kind of society they want to live in. Quite frankly, I don't care what you do on a personal level, but this is a social issue, bigger than you as an individual.

Men will never have to suffer life threathening pre eclampsia, sepsis, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration, giving birth and the aftermath of it all.

Well I think they should just back off.

I don't know why you included sepsis in that list. Men are far more likely to experience a sepsis infection than women for starters.

I notice a lot of the pro life are men. Command and control.

I have a lot of time for the former master of Holles Street (he is a man yay!) Peter Boylan.

What do you think.

It's nothing to do with command and control. A lot of the pro-life are men, a lot more of the pro-choice are also men. The reason you have a lot of time for Peter Boylan is because you agree with him!

average_runner wrote: »

You could be right but a man should have a choice if he wants to be in the kids life, if he decides not To, he shouldn't have to pay maintenance.

Nope, don't agree with that at all. Abortion has nothing to do with when the child or children are actually born, and the father should absolutely be held financially responsible for their children. If he decides not to be in his children's lives, that's his prerogative, but that doesn't absolve either parent of their responsibilities towards their children. Maintenance and guardianship and so on are completely separate issues to abortion.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

It fascinates me how much men on both sides feel they must have a say.

It's an issue that affects everyone in society Joey, I'm happy to see the numbers of both men and women on both sides expressing their opinions.

average_runner wrote: »

I think it's to do with what this system has done to men. Outside this debate. Men have no rights when it comes to children, judges will give the children to the mother no matter how bad she is and then expect men to pay through the nose, eventually pushing a lot of men to suicide and never talked about.

That's simply not true. Men absolutely have rights when it comes to their children. They also have responsibilities, responsibilities that you imagine they should be able to abandon on a whim, and who do you think should step in to provide support for the child then? The State? So you'll end up supporting all those children who have been abandoned by their fathers anyway through taxation. I don't want to be forced to support anyone else's child but my own, but that's not the way our society functions.

I'm not the only father with primary custody of my child btw, there are plenty of men who do, so this idea that men are pushed to suicide or that it's never talked about (plenty of threads on this site about fathers rights, even though they have the same rights as mothers!), I'm not sorry to say it but what you're talking about there just isn't true.

end of the road

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Funny that the same arguments are used against both then,isn't it? Arguments against contraception look silly now in hindsight, and it's probably going to be the same with abortion in future.

There might be a legitimate argument against abortion on demand, but "I don't like it so it shouldn't be allowed" certainly isn't one. Even if someone does present an argument against allowing abortion that I agree with, I'd still go out and vote to repeal the 8th, because it's a backwards amendment that does more harm than good.

i agree the 8th as a whole needs to go and i have said plenty of times that if it wasn't for the likely hood of abortion on demand being legislated for i'd vote yes to repeal.

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Has the argument really gone to "But what about the menz?"

Seriously, in order to consider this we first have to remove the cage from women's uterus'. When we do that, then we can talk about men's parental rights. Ultimately, they don't have to carry a child to term so they really don't get THAT much of a say. Like, sure, there needs to be a frank conversation, but that's it.

When we get abortion legalised, then we can talk about men being able to pull any legal responsibilities from the potential life while giving away any and all rights to it.

we can talk about men's issues as well. half of that child is the man's DNA so he has quite a right to a say.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

What about all those countries with legal abortion now? Where is all the vitriol regarding their abortion laws? None AFAIS. I will stand corrected though.

We should be looking at them. There doesn't seem to be any problem at all. Even in places that have a Pope living there. Like Italy. Think about it.

If he comes here and mentions abortion he will be so hypocrital I think.

quite a bit of vitrial in the uk i believe (if protesting outside clynics fits your description of vitrial)

Spanish Eyes

What about all those countries with legal abortion now? Where is all the vitriol regarding their abortion laws? None AFAIS. I will stand corrected though.

We should be looking at them. There doesn't seem to be any problem at all. Even in places that have a Pope living there. Like Italy. Think about it.

If he comes here and mentions abortion he will be so hypocrital I think.

mrkiscool2

Has the argument really gone to "But what about the menz?"

Seriously, in order to consider this we first have to remove the cage from women's uterus'. When we do that, then we can talk about men's parental rights. Ultimately, they don't have to carry a child to term so they really don't get THAT much of a say. Like, sure, there needs to be a frank conversation, but that's it.

When we get abortion legalised, then we can talk about men being able to pull any legal responsibilities from the potential life while giving away any and all rights to it.

Spanish Eyes

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Not the first time that point has been made in this thread:

Yep, the debate is all from one side now. We know what is required, everyone does, but there are some entities out there with foreign funding just the same trying to change it.

Malta AFAIS is the only EU country without abortion now, but like ourselves, they can send their females to Italy. What does the Pope think of this?

And the Pope will be visiting here soon. If he has anything negative to say about Ireland and its repeal of the 8th, he had better look to his own country of Italy, although I know the Vatican is independent but still.

It is just so hypocritical to me anyway.

Bannasidhe

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

This is just absolute bunkum and drivel. Of course the state can ban travel. The state injuncted Ms X from travelling. We had a referendum to guarantee the ability to travel. The reality is pro forced birthers dont want to reverse the 13th amendment. They are happy with a hypocrytical NIMBYIST not on my Island attitude.

In the aftermath of the 8th being passed the Irish State implemented a draconian censorship of any mention of abortion. It is my understanding that it was illegal to even tell a woman living in Ireland how and where she could get an abortion.

The result was a group of (mostly Irish) people living outside the State engaging in a clandestine information campaign - lots of phone calls to telephone boxes in Ireland at strange hours of the day and night- and a meet and accompany service for women travelling alone.

How do I know? Because I was often the one on the end of the phone in London calling some phone booth in Ireland or waiting for a bus coming from the ferry in Victoria Station so I could bring some terrified, alone, woman or girl for a procedure that she could never speak about to her family or friends but which gave her hope of a life worth living,

If the Irish authorities knew why these women and girls were travelling they would stop them. Like they did with Ms X. It was the public outcry over her case that (eventually) ended the travel ban and censorship.

For over a decade Ireland did prevent women travelling for abortions, it did censor information and access to information while at the same time continuing to support the enslavement of unmarried mothers and forced adoptions. The Magdalene Laundries were still in operation in the 1990s.

I don't doubt for a second that if they had their way many anti-repealers would bring back those days.

The great irony in all this is the ferry carried women - some of whom were married - to England to end an unwanted pregnancy and women who were unmarried but wanted to be able to keep their child.

Ireland has never been much interested in either protecting it's female citizens or allowing them to make their own choices.

Loafing Oaf

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I'm getting a feeling that if the 8th is repealed and legislation framed, it will be a nine day wonder.

And no one will refer to it afterwards.

Any views on that?

Not the first time that point has been made in this thread:

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This could be the basis of a Waterford Whispers-style article.

Things The Catholic Right Said Were Going To Destroy Society And Morals But Nothing Happened And Now Nobody Gives A Damn

Marriage equality
POLDPA
Morning after pill
Divorce
Legalising homosexuality
Contraception
Equal pay
Married women in jobs

...etc...

end of the road

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just an offside comment.

Would I be totally wrong to say that men should not have any input into the lives of pregnant women and their babies WRT abortion and their lives/health? Should be a medical decision with the ob/gyn only.

Men will never have to suffer life threathening pre eclampsia, sepsis, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration, giving birth and the aftermath of it all.

Well I think they should just back off.

I notice a lot of the pro life are men. Command and control.

I have a lot of time for the former master of Holles Street (he is a man yay!) Peter Boylan.

What do you think.

the baby is the man's as well. he is entitled to an opinion.
also, as men are going to be voting in this referendum, we are entitled to have an opinion on it. if you want men to back off, call for the referendum to be canceled. otherwise you will just have to accept that people both men and women will have opinions either for or against repeal.

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

I'd agree men should have a say, for the simple reason that only allowing one gender to vote on any issue is pretty undemocratic.

That said, myself and plenty of other men will be happy to vote to repeal it.

I'm sure the same Helen Lovejoy arguments that you're making were trotted out about contraception back in the day as well, but thankfully Ireland seems to be moving on from that attitude.

there is a huge difference between contraception and abortion. anyone arguing against contraception has something wrong with them. anyone arguing against abortion on demand has a legitimate argument.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Most of the anti choice are men.

there is actually no tangible evidence for that.

thee glitz wrote: »

I can't tell you you're wrong - are we, as a country getting richer or not?

to be fair, that part of my post was aimed at pilly. she wanted someone else to tell me that i'm wrong, so i'm suggesting she do it, seeing as she believes it to be the case yet refuses to do it herself.

Spanish Eyes

I'm getting a feeling that if the 8th is repealed and legislation framed, it will be a nine day wonder.

And no one will refer to it afterwards.

Any views on that?

average_runner

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

That is a very sad post, even if you didn't mean it to be.

I thought things had changed recently regarding this issue. But please inform me if I am wrong.

Does anything change in this country. It's not my situation though. Thank god

Spanish Eyes

average_runner wrote: »

I think it's to do with what this system has done to men. Outside this debate. Men have no rights when it comes to children, judges will give the children to the mother no matter how bad she is and then expect men to pay through the nose, eventually pushing a lot of men to suicide and never talked about.

That is a very sad post, even if you didn't mean it to be.

I thought things had changed recently regarding this issue. But please inform me if I am wrong.

Spanish Eyes

Il Papa will be visiting here soon.

Italy has abortion. How the heck did they manage to get that introduced in such a Catholic country would someone tell me now.

Never heard a negative word about it anywhere, even though it is a cough, Catholic country.

And yes, I do know that the Vatican is not Italy.

[Deleted User]

Da Boss wrote: »

the eighth does indeed affect men as even I myself was an “accident “ and I thank the eighth because without it I would not be here today!! That’s the importance of it in my life!

Did your mother tell you that?
Hey son, i only gave birth to you because I couldn't get an abortion?
That might explain somethings.............!

average_runner

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Yes of course. However there are some strident men out there in the msm telling women what to do regarding the potential repeal of the 8th.

Why so many men?

I am not talking about intimate relationships where such a decision is bound to be traumatic. I do have empathy.

I think it's to do with what this system has done to men. Outside this debate. Men have no rights when it comes to children, judges will give the children to the mother no matter how bad she is and then expect men to pay through the nose, eventually pushing a lot of men to suicide and never talked about.

Spanish Eyes

average_runner wrote: »

Well I am a man. I think you have to take each decision for what it is and respect it. You got be in the scenario to understand it.

Yes of course. However there are some strident men out there in the msm telling women what to do regarding the potential repeal of the 8th.

Why so many men?

I am not talking about intimate relationships where such a decision is bound to be traumatic. I do have empathy.

Da Boss

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Have you ever suffered pre eclampsia, bleeding, potential miscarriage, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration?

But I do acknowledge that you have a say but only for putting the seed in, after that the woman does everything to bring the child into the world.

You are hosting all the men who do not acknowledge that fact.

Yes that however doesn’t mean men shouldn’t have a say, this does affect men too as I previously highlighted!!! If took time to read what I typed I would not have to repeat the fact that the eighth does indeed affect men as even I myself was an “accident “ and I thank the eighth because without it I would not be here today!! That’s the importance of it in my life!

average_runner

kylith wrote: »

So you think that if a man doesn't want to have a baby he should be able to walk away, scot free, despite that fact that his behaviour is just as responsible for the existance of the pregnancy.

Do you think that a woman should be forced to continue with a pregnancy that she doesn't want, or do you think she should be able to access abortion services in her own country?

I believe both should be allow to make a choice.

nice_guy80

first week of January and already the Catholic church are interfering and trying to influence the probable referendum

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/archbishop-urges-catholics-to-speak-out-against-abortion-1.3347360?mode=amp

kylith

average_runner wrote: »

You could be right but a man should have a choice if he wants to be in the kids life, if he decides not To, he shouldn't have to pay maintenance.

So you think that if a man doesn't want to have a baby he should be able to walk away, scot free, despite that fact that his behaviour is just as responsible for the existance of the pregnancy.

Do you think that a woman should be forced to continue with a pregnancy that she doesn't want, or do you think she should be able to access abortion services in her own country?

Spanish Eyes

Most of the anti choice are men.

SusieBlue

Da Boss wrote: »

No I most definitely do not agree with your proposition that men shouldn’t have a say. Saying men shouldn’t have a say in an abortion referendum is like saying straight couples shouldn’t have a say in the marriage equality referendum and that batchelors or widows shouldn’t have a say in the divorce referendum. Ireland is a democracy so yes men do and should have a say , yee feminists won’t silence us. And yes abortion does effect men as it ends the life of others , the unborn, and only for the eighth amendment many men may not be enjoying the life they currently do.

I’m still awaiting a reply to my last post. I understand you being against abortion but you don’t really seem to have any alternate solution bar forcing women who don’t want to be pregnant to be pregnant. I’m really interested in hearing your opinion. I’ll quote my reply to you:

WhiteRoses wrote: »

Well what is your solution? Seriously? Bar forcing someone who does not want to be pregnant to be pregnant, what is the solution?
This would be a different kettle of fish if the fetus could survive without the mothers body as host. But while it cannot, while it depends on her to survive and thrive, it should be ultimately be up to her what happens it.

If I was a victim of abortion I wouldn’t know what I’d feel because I’d never have existed.
However, as a living, breathing woman, I trust my fellow women to make the best decision for themselves, and if they feel abortion is the only option then I support that fully.

I’ll also mention that I would never, ever get an abortion myself. It’s not for me.
But that could change in the future, and it isn’t for me to dictate how someone else lives their life any way. I want other women to have a choice. So I am pro choice.

Also, you’re saying I’m painting you like a gombeen but you and a few others aren’t half painting me as some sort of cold hearted feminazi.
This referendum is very very close to my heart for reasons unsuitable for this thread.
I know you feel like you are doing right by ‘saving the babies’ but I feel I’m doing right by campaigning for women to have a choice.

average_runner

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Ah no, we are not talking about that at all. What you say is fair enough,

But what have you to say about what I said above regarding the woman and her pregnancy, if you are male of course!

Well I am a man. I think you have to take each decision for what it is and respect it. You got be in the scenario to understand it.

Annasopra

Da Boss wrote: »

No I most definitely do not agree with your proposition that men shouldn’t have a say. Saying men shouldn’t have a say in an abortion referendum is like saying straight couples shouldn’t have a say in the marriage equality referendum and that batchelors or widows shouldn’t have a say in the divorce referendum. Ireland is a democracy so yes men do and should have a say , yee feminists won’t silence us. And yes abortion does effect men as it ends the life of others , the unborn, and only for the eighth amendment many men may not be enjoying the life they currently do.

It fascinates me how much men on both sides feel they must have a say.

thee glitz

I'll reply to a few points put to me given a chance, but

end of the road wrote: »

i already stated FFA should be covered under the facilitation of abortions in extreme circumstances within the state.

You're not really allowed to do that. Being for abortion availability in the case of FFA is a pro-choice stance, used by those supporters to justify abortion on demand, while not contemplating the possibility of one without the other.

it's not other people's job to do your work for you. if you believe i'm wrong, tell me yourself.

I can't tell you you're wrong - are we, as a country getting richer or not? People are creating wealth for themselves and the state, not aborted babies. Comparing the cost of providing an abortion to a normal pregnancy is nonsense.

Spanish Eyes

Da Boss wrote: »

No I most definitely do not agree with your proposition that men shouldn’t have a say. Saying men shouldn’t have a say in an abortion referendum is like saying straight couples shouldn’t have a say in the marriage equality referendum and that batchelors or widows shouldn’t have a say in the divorce referendum. Ireland is a democracy so yes men do and should have a say , yee feminists won’t silence us. And yes abortion does effect men as it ends the life of others , the unborn, and only for the eighth amendment many men may not be enjoying the life they currently do.

Have you ever suffered pre eclampsia, bleeding, potential miscarriage, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration?

But I do acknowledge that you have a say but only for putting the seed in, after that the woman does everything to bring the child into the world.

You are hosting all the men who do not acknowledge that fact.

Da Boss

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just an offside comment.

Would I be totally wrong to say that men should not have any input into the lives of pregnant women and their babies WRT abortion and their lives/health? Should be a medical decision with the ob/gyn only.

Men will never have to suffer life threathening pre eclampsia, sepsis, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration, giving birth and the aftermath of it all.

Well I think they should just back off.

I notice a lot of the pro life are men. Command and control.

I have a lot of time for the former master of Holles Street (he is a man yay!) Peter Boylan.

What do you think.

No I most definitely do not agree with your proposition that men shouldn’t have a say. Saying men shouldn’t have a say in an abortion referendum is like saying straight couples shouldn’t have a say in the marriage equality referendum and that batchelors or widows shouldn’t have a say in the divorce referendum. Ireland is a democracy so yes men do and should have a say , yee feminists won’t silence us. And yes abortion does effect men as it ends the life of others , the unborn, and only for the eighth amendment many men may not be enjoying the life they currently do.

Spanish Eyes

average_runner wrote: »

You could be right but a man should have a choice if he wants to be in the kids life, if he decides not To, he shouldn't have to pay maintenance.

Ah no, we are not talking about that at all. What you say is fair enough,

But what have you to say about what I said above regarding the woman and her pregnancy, if you are male of course!

average_runner

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just an offside comment.

Would I be totally wrong to say that men should not have any input into the lives of pregnant women and their babies WRT abortion and their lives/health? Should be a medical decision with the ob/gyn only.

Men will never have to suffer life threathening pre eclampsia, sepsis, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration, giving birth and the aftermath of it all.

Well I think they should just back off.

I notice a lot of the pro life are men. Command and control.

I have a lot of time for the former master of Holles Street (he is a man yay!) Peter Boylan.

What do you think.

You could be right but a man should have a choice if he wants to be in the kids life, if he decides not To, he shouldn't have to pay maintenance.

Spanish Eyes

Just an offside comment.

Would I be totally wrong to say that men should not have any input into the lives of pregnant women and their babies WRT abortion and their lives/health? Should be a medical decision with the ob/gyn only.

Men will never have to suffer life threathening pre eclampsia, sepsis, post natal depression, pelvic floor disintegration, giving birth and the aftermath of it all.

Well I think they should just back off.

I notice a lot of the pro life are men. Command and control.

I have a lot of time for the former master of Holles Street (he is a man yay!) Peter Boylan.

What do you think.

kylith

thee glitz wrote: »

Well...

"where ruptured membranes are accompanied by any clinical or bio-chemical marker of infection, Irish obstetricians understand they CAN intervene with early delivery of the baby if necessary. Unfortunately, the inquest shows that in Galway University Hospital the diagnosis of chorioamnionitis was delayed and relevant information was not noted and acted upon."

Sounds awfully to me like they could have treated her with a termination, which would have helped her condition, but they didn't.

pilly wrote: »

Here's as simple an explanation as I can give to debunk the absolutely nutters idea that abortion costs more than birth.

1 or 2 doctors appointments versus 10 months of healthcare.

Can someone please explain to EOTR cause I haven't the energy nor inclination.

Not to mention the cost of 18 years' of child support.