Da Boss wrote: » I really hope that the pro life group are successful and the upcoming referendum fails . It would be a victory for humanity, a good news story in this world of bad news. Ireland will hopefully vote correctly and as a result thousands of lives would be saved. I really really sincerely hope my fellow Irishmen and Irishwoman see sense and vote to save life. If that was to be the case I would be a proud man, and such an occasion would restore my confidence in humanity! I’ll live in hope, this is one to win
end of the road wrote: » eviltwin wrote: » Well I'm confused. You've been arguing that abortion is the killing of a baby, that the unborn should be treated as individuals, that they deserve the same legal protection as the living.... Why then do you not support legal sanctions for abortions here? I'm genuinely confused by this. If you believe an unborn baby is as equal to a living baby then why wouldn't you want it's death, or murder if you are it that way, to be investigated and punished accordingly? because it's not going to happen. so i would be campaigning for something that won't happen. however campaigning for the status quo where abortion on demand isn't availible in ireland and those who want it can go to england is actually doable.
eviltwin wrote: » Well I'm confused. You've been arguing that abortion is the killing of a baby, that the unborn should be treated as individuals, that they deserve the same legal protection as the living.... Why then do you not support legal sanctions for abortions here? I'm genuinely confused by this. If you believe an unborn baby is as equal to a living baby then why wouldn't you want it's death, or murder if you are it that way, to be investigated and punished accordingly?
NuMarvel wrote: » From the 30 plus years of British abortions statistics.
From the evidence of the importation and use of abortion pills heard at the Citizens Assembly and the Committee on the 8th.
From the personal testimonies of Irish women who have had abortions.
From research of the World Health Organisation that says restricting access to abortions doesn't reduce the number of abortions, it just makes them unsafe.
On the other hand, the people who say the ban works haven't been able to provide a sliver of evidence to back that up.
So if Irish women are having abortions, even though Ireland has a ban on abortion, and research says that bans on abortion don't reduce the numbers of abortions
and the people who support the ban can't prove that it works, I think it's fair to say that the ban doesn't stop abortions.
There is nothing about the 8th to be proud of, so at least we agree on something.
thee glitz wrote: » Which statistics (genuinely interested)? Any stats? Stats? Any? The other hand? Research, with statistics? Well if anything... On what basis? I was previously lead to believe that some/many women in Ireland couldn't get abortions due to the cost of travelling abroad, the time required to do so and/or their refugee status. The 8th is still going strong, doing fine work - you must be confused.
Da Boss wrote: » eviltwin wrote: » What kind of punishment would you suggest then? Life in prison? Maybe less for those who have regret, more for those who aren't ashamed. I had an abortion too, I can think of at least twenty other Irish women who admit to having abortions. Are you going to lock us all up? And what about the partners, husbands, friends etc who came with us or minded kids for us or gave us the money....they were all aware, do they go to prison too? You can shout as much as you like that abortion is murder, that we are 'baby' killers. You won't shame me though I think that says all I need to know about you and your conscience (or lack of more like) . You have blood on your hands, you ended the life of another and you don’t seem to think of it twice, to me that’s scary, you show any compassion, or are you as it appears?- stone hearted
eviltwin wrote: » What kind of punishment would you suggest then? Life in prison? Maybe less for those who have regret, more for those who aren't ashamed. I had an abortion too, I can think of at least twenty other Irish women who admit to having abortions. Are you going to lock us all up? And what about the partners, husbands, friends etc who came with us or minded kids for us or gave us the money....they were all aware, do they go to prison too? You can shout as much as you like that abortion is murder, that we are 'baby' killers. You won't shame me though
One eyed Jack wrote: » Is it though? I don't think anyone can make generalisations like that to be fair. In my experience, young people are more concerned about their exam grades than sex and sexuality. Of course your mileage may differ, but that's my point. Young people are exposed to plenty of sex and sexuality education outside the school, and I've always believed relationships and sex educational is the parents responsibility rather than the poor effort that's put into it in the class environment (although in saying that, my own son's teacher was young and very open to discussion and yes, they covered abortion in a Catholic school, in an objective manner at least). I can't say nationally whether it has or hasn't improved, but my point is that relationships and sex education is and should be, primarily the responsibility of the parents, and children are exposed to relationships and sexuality outside of the school. This idea that whatever they learn in school is all they'll ever know, ignores realities like I walked into the living room the other night and the young lad was watching 50 shades on TV. I straight up told him turn off that shìte. It wasn't because I'm a conservative Catholic prude that has any hang-ups at all about sex; it was simply because I would never want him to develop the idea that he should avoid sex by virtue of having been given the impression that it could ever possibly be so incredibly mundane and boring :pac: I fully agree with you that the Catholic Church does and has played it's part in influencing how we think about sex and sexuality in this country (hell in many countries! :pac:), but of course at an individual level you're going to view that as either a negative or a positive. I've always thought of it as a positive overall, but of course I'm not naive enough to ignore the fact that other people definitely do not share my perspective. In relation to education at least, I can say that EOTR is on the same page with many people here when it comes to the influence of the RCC in their own schools, and indeed the State providing for of education, I know because we've previously had that discussion on other threads, so to see all sorts of accusations being levelled at them on the assumption that they are in league with the Catholic Church, or to suggest that their ideas are solely influenced by the Catholic Church, is just mistaken and actually more divisive than helpful. In relation to healthcare in Ireland in general, well, again overall it's actually good IMO, but there are of course elements of it at an individual level that could sorely do with being shaken up. For example the assumption that because I refused a blood transfusion I must be a Jehovah Witness :pac: In saying that though, even though I disagreed with my consultant, he was able to maintain professional standards and didn't mock or dismiss my concerns, and the outcome of the procedure I had done today (total hip replacement) has been positive overall. What I'm driving at is that just because someone disagrees with you or you disagree with them, it doesn't give anyone the right to treat anyone like dirt, and then out of the other side of their mouths complain that their perceived human rights are being violated. It's an inherently selfish and self-centred attitude, and they really shouldn't be surprised when they claim that Irish society at least is rife with racism, sexism, and that we live in a "rape culture". Most people simply can't relate to that sort of extreme view because it is no reflection of anything they experience in their daily lives. The above is also one of the reasons I detest the influence of the media in this discussion because they fuel the polarisation of different viewpoints. It's called propaganda, and I have no doubt that if the 8th is repealed, on it's anniversary a year later we will see headlines like "Rates of abortion have increased 300%", which sounds shocking, until we actually consider that that's exactly what one would expect, given that I think (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm going off memory), that the official numbers now are only in the order of 25 or less than that every year. Naturally that rate should increase, but I also have a feeling that like our suicide statistics, the figure given will be there or thereabouts every year. I don't expect any "floodgates" to open, and I think the media has a responsibility to, well, actually be responsible in how they report on individual cases. I don't expect them to, I expect the usual clickbaity headlines, but it would actually be nice if they did. I expect the media to continue to polarise the discussion and wind people up, because that's actually what sells papers, or encourages people to pay to access content behind a paywall. Personally, I wouldn't give the Irish Times a cent, same as I've never given the Church a cent in mass every Sunday. I actually agree with the point of view that says if parents want to educate their children, they should have to fund it themselves, as I don't believe it should be the States responsibility to provide for anyone's education. That would be a violation of a child's right to education though, so I don't foresee that at least ever happening in this country, which IMO is wrong but just because I don't agree with something doesn't mean that I should be exempt from paying taxes so the State can afford to fund public services for everyone in Irish society, regardless of whether or not we disagree as individuals on an individual level on the kind of society we would wish to live in, or shape that society for future generations to come.
grahambo wrote: » sondagefaux wrote: » It's somewhere in between? In other words, you think it's a grey area as to whether or not a foetus is a child. So why do you want a black and white solution? A law which permits abortions in some circumstances but prohibits abortions in others is probably the best way to deal with things if you really believe that. I don't like the term Grey if I'm honest. When someone says grey to me that they refuse to accept there is a 3rd (or greater) position. Child is born and is alive Child is not alive Child is at fetal stage X. where X can be and number between 0 and 42 Weeks. sondagefaux wrote: » As for the rest, it's not impossible to figure out if a woman who wants to travel abroad is pregnant. It's relatively easy in fact. How would you know if a woman who was pregnant wanted to get an abortion? Check her phone, laptop etc. Check her luggage for any appointment letters etc. Again not that difficult to do. A pregnant woman who is travelling abroad but there is no evidence she wants to get an abortion. She is no longer pregnant (this can be checked) on her return to Ireland. Did she have a miscarriage, an abortion or give birth? These can be checked. Jesus...... Perhaps we should stone them when they come back? You may as well, you've taken away most of their civil rights there anyway. sondagefaux wrote: » As regards child rape, there have been several prosecutions in Ireland of Irish citizens who have travelled abroad and raped children. Just because a crime is difficult to deal with doesn't mean it should be ignored. You say you don't think abortion is killing babies, although you also say you don't think it isn't either. Any figures to back this up? sondagefaux wrote: » For those who see it as killing babies, I'm still struggling to see why they don't seem to mind if Irish women get abortions abroad. If they're not actually that bothered, why would they care if a woman gets an abortion in Ireland or elsewhere? I don't see it as killing babies. sondagefaux wrote: » PS: French woman who went to the UK, got an abortion, then came to Ireland - can't be prosecuted in Ireland, Irish courts would have no jurisdiction. So if I woman has an Irish passport she is liable?
sondagefaux wrote: » It's somewhere in between? In other words, you think it's a grey area as to whether or not a foetus is a child. So why do you want a black and white solution? A law which permits abortions in some circumstances but prohibits abortions in others is probably the best way to deal with things if you really believe that.
sondagefaux wrote: » As for the rest, it's not impossible to figure out if a woman who wants to travel abroad is pregnant. It's relatively easy in fact. How would you know if a woman who was pregnant wanted to get an abortion? Check her phone, laptop etc. Check her luggage for any appointment letters etc. Again not that difficult to do. A pregnant woman who is travelling abroad but there is no evidence she wants to get an abortion. She is no longer pregnant (this can be checked) on her return to Ireland. Did she have a miscarriage, an abortion or give birth? These can be checked.
sondagefaux wrote: » As regards child rape, there have been several prosecutions in Ireland of Irish citizens who have travelled abroad and raped children. Just because a crime is difficult to deal with doesn't mean it should be ignored. You say you don't think abortion is killing babies, although you also say you don't think it isn't either.
sondagefaux wrote: » For those who see it as killing babies, I'm still struggling to see why they don't seem to mind if Irish women get abortions abroad. If they're not actually that bothered, why would they care if a woman gets an abortion in Ireland or elsewhere?
sondagefaux wrote: » PS: French woman who went to the UK, got an abortion, then came to Ireland - can't be prosecuted in Ireland, Irish courts would have no jurisdiction.
One eyed Jack wrote: In my experience, young people are more concerned about their exam grades than sex and sexuality. Of course your mileage may differ, but that's my point. Young people are exposed to plenty of sex and sexuality education outside the school, and I've always believed relationships and sex educational is the parents responsibility rather than the poor effort that's put into it in the class environment.
WhiteRoses wrote: » What are your opinions on how the 8th currently affects maternity care
and the concept of consent, in Ireland?
Martina1991 wrote: » If a women in Ireland today chooses to have an abortion she WILL have one. Whether it be pills bought online, going abroad or seeking cheaper dangerous alternatives. It is the womans choice and you can't stop that from happening. You aren't "saving" those babies. Making it legal in Ireland will ensure those women don't have to go abroad and can have the procedure safely.
Doctor Jimbob wrote: » A better way to reduce the amount of abortions happening would be to have better sexual education, better access to methods preventing conception in people who don't want kids (i.e. no guilting people out of sterilisation procedures), and better support for struggling parents.
Doctor Jimbob wrote: » But of course most of that would involve having mature conversations about dirty, immoral, sex. The horror.
WhiteRoses wrote: » What are your opinions on how the 8th currently affects maternity care and the concept of consent, in Ireland?
thee glitz wrote: » The 8th protects the right to life of the unborn
but still allows for abortions to be carried out where necessary, as evidenced by the fact that they occur.
For a fella to legally ride a girl, he must have her advance sober written permission to do so, similar immediately prior to doing so (particularly if she's under any influence), and each instance witnessed by at least 1 parent, a district court judge and a Hillary supporter. I wouldn't have it in the constitution though.
thee glitz wrote: » The 8th protects the right to life of the unborn but still allows for abortions to be carried out where necessary, as evidenced by the fact that they occur.
thee glitz wrote: » For a fella to legally ride a girl, he must have her advance sober written permission to do so, similar immediately prior to doing so (particularly if she's under any influence), and each instance witnessed by at least 1 parent, a district court judge and a Hillary supporter. I wouldn't have it in the constitution though.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » Says it all really doesn't it.
sondagefaux wrote: » Are you going to campaign to remove that right from the Constitution?
sondagefaux wrote: » Or don't you care that the unborn are killed as long as it doesn't happen in Ireland?
thee glitz wrote: » Which statistics (genuinely interested)?
thee glitz wrote: » Any stats?
thee glitz wrote: » Stats?
thee glitz wrote: » Any?
thee glitz wrote: » The other hand?
thee glitz wrote: » Research, with statistics?
thee glitz wrote: » Well if anything... On what basis? I was previously lead to believe that some/many women in Ireland couldn't get abortions due to the cost of travelling abroad, the time required to do so and/or their refugee status.
thee glitz wrote: » The 8th is still going strong, doing fine work - you must be confused.
NuMarvel wrote: » Anti-repealers have said and argued more against legislating for the X Case (which results in about 2 abortions a month) than against the freedom to travel (which results in at least 272 abortions a month).
thee glitz wrote: » The 8th protects the right to life of the unborn but still allows for abortions to be carried out where necessary, as evidenced by the fact that they occur. For a fella to legally ride a girl, he must have her advance sober written permission to do so, similar immediately prior to doing so (particularly if she's under any influence), and each instance witnessed by at least 1 parent, a district court judge and a Hillary supporter. I wouldn't have it in the constitution though.
Martina1991 wrote: » Some students care about exams. Most if not all young people think about sex, a lot. Standardised sex education would be much more effective and informative than leaving it to parents. At least then everyone would have the same correct information. Not all parents talk to their kids about sex because they never had the talk with their own parents. It's embarrassing talking about sex with your parents.
NuMarvel wrote: » I cited the source only a few posts before yours.
Personal testimonies don't lend themselves to stats.
But if you're looking for examples, just read the thread, because a number of posters have talked about their abortions. Plus, there's the likes of Tara Flynn, Roisin Ingle, Kitty Holland, etc.
Any what? I've already cited the source, so I'd hope that's not what you're looking for.
Don't know what's confusing about that. You're right that many people can't travel.
But it doesn't follow that they can't access abortion. That's probably why the number of abortion pills being ordered online is increasing
and who's to say what other more drastic measures someone might take.
I'll add you to the list of people who say the ban works and haven't been able to provide a sliver of evidence to back that up.
end of the road wrote: » agreed. however this isn't what is happening here. what is happening here is the state is insuring that bar extreme circumstances, the unborn cannot be killed within it.
thee glitz wrote: » The WHO - unsafe abortions in Ireland don't occur, or only in a negligible number of cases.
thee glitz wrote: » As above, the British statistics back this up, but illegal abortion pills obviously aren't considered.
nice_guy80 wrote: » sex education is standardised at primary school level. teachers are obliged to cover it as part of the SPHE, Stay Safe and RSE programmes the problem is that at secondary level teachers are dealing with teenagers and might not want to teach it.also, the patronage of the school can interfere in the delivery of this information (seriously). (why should a religious body have this influence, I don't know)
I do agree that it would be better if it was an outside service delivering the same message in every school in the country.
end of the road wrote: » i believe it to be wrong. which is why i find it regretible that i won't be in a position to vote repeal due to the likely hood of abortion on demand. if that threat wasn't there i'd vote repeal in a heart beat. i'm not alone in that view either.
Hotblack Desiato wrote: » Nope because by law it doesn't prevent travel, and in fact it doesn't prevent abortion pills. FAIL
For that tiny subset of necessary where "necessary" = "on the point of maternal death".
Says it all really doesn't it.
kylith wrote: » As Hotblack says these abortions are carried out when there is a real and substantial risk to maternal life, not health. That means that women who are diagnosed with cancer can be denied treatment until the cancer is terminal as it would harm the fetus. Women on medication that could harm a fetus can be denied it, even if they need the medication to stay healthy. If a pregnancy will leave you crippled, tough; that's your health, not your life so you have to either make peace with the fact that you're going to spend your life in a wheelchair or go to the UK.
January wrote: » Bingo. We're not just talking about consent to sex here. We're talking about consent to procedures during pregnancy and birth. Women have absolutely zero say in what way they give birth because of the 8th amendment. The 8th allows doctors to threaten women with bringing them to court if they don't consent to what the doctors are telling them to do. Its all disguised as being what's best for the baby but the mother isn't taken into consideration in these decisions.
Sin City wrote: » The issue here is abortions are gonna happen no matter what the law states Women will continue to get on a plane and get it done Why have them go through this ?
Sin City wrote: » We can debtae ethics and morality all day long The issue here is abortions are gonna happen no matter what the law states Women will continue to get on a plane and get it done Why have them go through this ?
Sin City wrote: » It should be allowed Now in what circumstances wil be decided by the government and the medical council
Sin City wrote: » We can never allow another Savita Halappanavar tragedy again
One eyed Jack wrote: » Why should a religious body have any influence in the relationships and sex education curriculum in the schools they are the Trustees of? I'd have thought the answer was obvious.
thee glitz wrote: » Where the line is to be drawn, what's reasonable, is a good question that should be addressed.
thee glitz wrote: » Are they though - what if the UK, a democracy, adopts legislation like already in place in NI... There's no reason why we should we be legislating based on other jurisdictions. Travelling to the UK for an abortion is a loophole, not policy.
end of the road wrote: » it is allowed. in extreme circumstances. there may be room to extend those a bit, but that is all that is necessary.
