Uber

markodaly wrote: »

The 6,300 euro fee for the 'privilege' of operating a taxi?

I assume you're referring to the entry cost rather than the annual operating cost of the licence.

Since the NTA aren't currently accepting new licence applications in this category the €6,300 fee isn't relevant to the argument. The only new taxi licences available cost €170.

So to repeat the question that you gave the above answer to,

What do people think is unfair or unsuitable about current Irish taxi regulation that they want Uber to bypass it?

howiya wrote: »

I assume you're referring to the entry cost rather than the annual operating cost of the licence.

Since the NTA aren't currently accepting new licence applications in this category the €6,300 fee isn't relevant to the argument. The only new taxi licences available cost €170.

Which means you need to have a wheelchair accessible car to avail of this taxi license, you left out that bit. Such a car would cost well north of 20,000 euro if not more.

So to repeat the question that you gave the above answer to,

What do people think is unfair or unsuitable about current Irish taxi regulation that they want Uber to bypass it?

You answered this yourself, the fact that its a closed shop, that even if there was a license available you had to fork out €6,300 but alas even these are not available anymore. If someone wants to drive a taxi or operate a ride sharing car, they should be allowed to once they have a full clean license, their car is road worthy and they don't have a criminal record. Such a license could be granted for €100.

MJohnston wrote: »

You're making an argument for more regulation, not less.

Not at all. People use regulation as a way to justify existing market practice that remain inefficient, old and out of date. The argument against uber or similar ride sharing services I hear is often one about passenger safety yet, no one questions how safe are our existing taxi's and has there been some proper research into if one is actually safer then the other.

Tell me this, it is safer for a woman on their own to hail a cab on a street corner at 2:30 am, or is it safer for them to use a ride sharing app to order a ride, whereby the driver, the car and the journey itself is completely mapped, logged and recorded.

Ridesharing apps like Uber have made taxi's think more about leveraging technology to increase passenger safety. Let me put it this way, would a mytaxi app be used as much if Uber or Lyft had not made the idea of it mainstream?

markodaly wrote: »

Not at all. People use regulation as a way to justify existing market practice that remain inefficient, old and out of date. The argument against uber or similar ride sharing services I hear is often one about passenger safety yet, no one questions how safe are our existing taxi's and has there been some proper research into if one is actually safer then the other.

For me it's only a small bit about passenger safety, but mostly it's about fairness of competition. You either deregulate all taxis, or Uber must adhere to regulations also. There is no middle ground that works here.

Tell me this, it is safer for a woman on their own to hail a cab on a street corner at 2:30 am, or is it safer for them to use a ride sharing app to order a ride, whereby the driver, the car and the journey itself is completely mapped, logged and recorded.

I think it's safest, out of all the taxi options, to use a regulated taxi hailed through an app like MyTaxi where the journey is mapped, logged, and recorded.

Ridesharing apps like Uber have made taxi's think more about leveraging technology to increase passenger safety. Let me put it this way, would a mytaxi app be used as much if Uber or Lyft had not made the idea of it mainstream?

Given that MyTaxi, aka Hailo, launched in Ireland at least 2 years prior to Uber, I can answer "yes" to that with absolute certainty.

MJohnston wrote: »

For me it's only a small bit about passenger safety, but mostly it's about fairness of competition. You either deregulate all taxis, or Uber must adhere to regulations also. There is no middle ground that works here.

Yet you fully support the status quo where by a would be taxi operator or ride sharer has to pay €6,300 for a taxi license, which at the moment does not even exist. Its extortion, dressed up as regulating the taxi industry for the betterment of well existing taxi drivers.

I think it's safest, out of all the taxi options, to use a regulated taxi hailed through an app like MyTaxi where the journey is mapped, logged, and recorded.

Well, that is traditional taxis jumping on technology and innovation pioneered by the likes of Uber and Lyft. If you have stats or peer reviewed research that says using an app to hail a taxi over an uber is safer then by all means post it. I have never found evidence to suggest this is the case, and I have looked.

Given that MyTaxi, aka Hailo, launched in Ireland at least 2 years prior to Uber, I can answer "yes" to that with absolute certainty.

Ah yes, Ireland lives in a vacuum and your comment here is a perfect illustration of the same. You are also wrong.

Uber was founded in 2009
MyTaxi app was first introduced in Hamburg in 2010
Lyft started in 2012
Hailo was founded in 2011 in London.

Uber was the first out of the blocks with this technology and others quickly followed.

The Irish taxi industry just piggybacked on this tech, there was no innovation necessary or needed. They did know however, if they did not started to use this tech, then someone or Uber or Lyft would have seen Ireland as fertile grounds for market share capture. The taxi industry here thinks they are great and modern of course that they use this tech now but it was done to stave off competition and of course give some PR as if they are the paragons of innovation.

Dont piss on my leg and tell me its raining.

LuckyLloyd

The last point is immaterial to what you originally said. In the Irish context, Hailo was their introduction to the whole thing. Uber had nothing to do with its widespread adoption here.

markodaly wrote: »

Yet you fully support the status quo where by a would be taxi operator or ride sharer has to pay €6,300 for a taxi license, which at the moment does not even exist. Its extortion, dressed up as regulating the taxi industry for the betterment of well existing taxi drivers.

I made no argument one way or the other about the current licensing requirements or costs. I simply said that they exist, and Uber must follow them too, otherwise they create illegally unfair competition in the marketplace.

Well, that is traditional taxis jumping on technology and innovation pioneered by the likes of Uber and Lyft. If you have stats or peer reviewed research that says using an app to hail a taxi over an uber is safer then by all means post it. I have never found evidence to suggest this is the case, and I have looked.

It's an educated assumption - you claim that an app that tracks journeys and logs everything is safer than not having an app, I agree with that.

You also say that it costs €6300 to get a taxi license, which in and of itself is a barrier to becoming a taxi driver, and it seems to me that this cannot be less safe than a situation where you're getting into a car with a person who has paid 0 to become an Uber driver (note that I'm not saying that cost barrier makes things completely safe, just at least equally safe, or perhaps even slightly more safe, than without).

Ah yes, Ireland lives in a vacuum and your comment here is a perfect illustration of the same. You are also wrong.

Uber was founded in 2009
MyTaxi app was first introduced in Hamburg in 2010
Lyft started in 2012
Hailo was founded in 2011 in London.

Uber was the first out of the blocks with this technology and others quickly followed.

That's all well and good, but you specifically asked "would a mytaxi app be used as much if Uber or Lyft had not made the idea of it mainstream".

My response is simply that Uber did not make the idea mainstream in Ireland, because a lot of people have still not now even heard of Uber long after it has launched here, and certainly most had never heard of it before it launched.

The Irish taxi industry just piggybacked on this tech, there was no innovation necessary or needed. They did know however, if they did not started to use this tech, then someone or Uber or Lyft would have seen Ireland as fertile grounds for market share capture. The taxi industry here thinks they are great and modern of course that they use this tech now but it was done to stave off competition and of course give some PR as if they are the paragons of innovation.

Dont piss on my leg and tell me its raining.

This just seems like a rant - I'm not in the taxi industry whatsoever, nor do I particularly like taxis, but I can only say what I see from the outside.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The last point is immaterial to what you originally said. In the Irish context, Hailo was their introduction to the whole thing. Uber had nothing to do with its widespread adoption here.

Apart from being the world leaders in app based taxi/ride-sharing ordering, nothing at all.
:pac:

end of the road

markodaly wrote: »

Which means you need to have a wheelchair accessible car to avail of this taxi license, you left out that bit. Such a car would cost well north of 20,000 euro if not more.

such cars are very likely going to eventually become mandatory so your argument isn't valid.

markodaly wrote: »

You answered this yourself, the fact that its a closed shop, that even if there was a license available you had to fork out €6,300 but alas even these are not available anymore. If someone wants to drive a taxi or operate a ride sharing car, they should be allowed to once they have a full clean license, their car is road worthy and they don't have a criminal record. Such a license could be granted for €100.

there is no closed shop. there is a licence availible with a fee of 170 euro. perfectly fine and affordible.

MJohnston wrote: »

I made no argument one way or the other about the current licensing requirements or costs. I simply said that they exist, and Uber must follow them too, otherwise they create illegally unfair competition in the marketplace.

Yes, we are so concerned with unfair competition, you have no problem or comment to make on unfair regulation with makes the entire industry unfair from the get go. Funny that.

It's an educated assumption - you claim that an app that tracks journeys and logs everything is safer than not having an app, I agree with that.

An assumption does not make it true or correct.

You also say that it costs €6300 to get a taxi license, which in and of itself is a barrier to becoming a taxi driver, and it seems to me that this cannot be less safe than a situation where you're getting into a car with a person who has paid 0 to become an Uber driver (note that I'm not saying that cost barrier makes things completely safe, just at least equally safe, or perhaps even slightly more safe, than without).

The cost barrier is just that, a barrier. It is well known that for years, Dublin gangs used taxi's to launder their drug money. Having no barrier or a reasonable barrier of say €100 to cover administration, would just be as safe as a barrier of €100,000. Remember the pre-deregulation days of the 90's. Taxi drivers gave us that yarn as well, stating that people wouldn't use these newer taxi drivers as they would be 'all sorts of people' (a sly dig of non nationals, Irish Taxi drivers are quite racist in my experience). The issue should be centered about proper background checks, not stupid random fees on who can afford to be a taxi driver.

That's all well and good, but you specifically asked "would a mytaxi app be used as much if Uber or Lyft had not made the idea of it mainstream".

My response is simply that Uber did not make the idea mainstream in Ireland, because a lot of people have still not now even heard of Uber long after it has launched here, and certainly most had never heard of it before it launched.

Ireland is a small market, hence why Uber probably could not have been bothered to come here earlier. Ireland also deregulated the taxi industry many years ago, so although the €6,300 fee is stupid and unwarranted it is not as bad as those elsewhere like in NY, or London or Sydney, where a taxi licences costs up to $500,000. These were the markets that Uber wanted to crack and crack they did.

However, my main point was that innovation originated by the likes of Uber, Lyft and developers in myTaxi/Halio. The Irish taxi industry just piggy backed on this.

Put it another way, was the NTA or the Irish Taxi Federation or whomever they are called involved back in 2009 or 2010 in developing an app like myTaxi or Halio?

This just seems like a rant - I'm not in the taxi industry whatsoever, nor do I particularly like taxis, but I can only say what I see from the outside.

Fine, but don't give them credit for innovating in their industry when it was forced on them by the PD's in the 2000 and spoon feed to them by the tech revolution.

Manner of the old heads are still crying about it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/taxi-drivers-face-multimillion-euro-legal-bill-in-deregulation-case-1.2506103

end of the road wrote: »

such cars are very likely going to eventually become mandatory so your argument isn't valid.

Do you have a source for this? I can understand a certain % but all? No taxi industry in the world has this requirement as far as I know.

there is no closed shop. there is a licence availible with a fee of 170 euro. perfectly fine and affordible.

Yes, €170 is fine, until you realise you need a wheelchair accesable car to avail of it. Which would be €20,000 min.

Kinda like how we in Ireland have free third level University if you ignore the €3,000 registration fee every year.:pac: But yea its free....:rolleyes:

markodaly wrote: »

Which means you need to have a wheelchair accessible car to avail of this taxi license, you left out that bit. Such a car would cost well north of 20,000 euro if not more.

The reason the restriction was introduced is that the number of wheelchair accessible taxis in Ireland fell by 40% since 2008.

In case you hadn't noticed the number of people in wheelchairs is increasing. Should Uber drivers be allowed discriminate against people in wheelchairs?

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, €170 is fine, until you realise you need a wheelchair accesable car to avail of it. Which would be €20,000 min.

Kinda like how we in Ireland have free third level University if you ignore the €3,000 registration fee every year.:pac: But yea its free....:rolleyes:

That's a bit like you suggesting a rideshare driver should pay a licence fee of €100 and then he/she realises they need a car :rolleyes:

howiya wrote: »

The reason the restriction was introduced is that the number of wheelchair accessible taxis in Ireland fell by 40% since 2008.

In case you hadn't noticed the number of people in wheelchairs is increasing. Should Uber drivers be allowed discriminate against people in wheelchairs?

So, how is restricting would be Taxi drivers from driving a normal car help wheelchair users. Is there data available that shows us the optimal number of wheel chair accesible taxis? Maybe that 40% drop was warranted?

Uber had this covered as well by the way.
https://www.uber.com/en-IE/ride/uberwav/

markodaly wrote: »

So, how is restricting would be Taxi drivers from driving a normal car help wheelchair users. Is there data available that shows us the optimal number of wheel chair accesible taxis? Maybe that 40% drop was warranted?

Uber had this covered as well by the way.
https://www.uber.com/en-IE/ride/uberwav/

Uber doesn't have this covered since any uberwav you get in Ireland will also be a taxi. But sure let's pretend they are the ones responsible.

If you can't see how making new entrants buy a wheelchair accessible vehicle over a normal vehicle would help wheelchair users then I don't know how to explain it any clearer.

I doubt the NTA would have introduced the restriction or the grant aid to help people buy wheelchair accessible vehicles if they didn't have data to support their policy.

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, we are so concerned with unfair competition, you have no problem or comment to make on unfair regulation with makes the entire industry unfair from the get go. Funny that.

An assumption does not make it true or correct.

The cost barrier is just that, a barrier. It is well known that for years, Dublin gangs used taxi's to launder their drug money. Having no barrier or a reasonable barrier of say €100 to cover administration, would just be as safe as a barrier of €100,000. Remember the pre-deregulation days of the 90's. Taxi drivers gave us that yarn as well, stating that people wouldn't use these newer taxi drivers as they would be 'all sorts of people' (a sly dig of non nationals, Irish Taxi drivers are quite racist in my experience). The issue should be centered about proper background checks, not stupid random fees on who can afford to be a taxi driver.

Ireland is a small market, hence why Uber probably could not have been bothered to come here earlier. Ireland also deregulated the taxi industry many years ago, so although the €6,300 fee is stupid and unwarranted it is not as bad as those elsewhere like in NY, or London or Sydney, where a taxi licences costs up to $500,000. These were the markets that Uber wanted to crack and crack they did.

However, my main point was that innovation originated by the likes of Uber, Lyft and developers in myTaxi/Halio. The Irish taxi industry just piggy backed on this.

Put it another way, was the NTA or the Irish Taxi Federation or whomever they are called involved back in 2009 or 2010 in developing an app like myTaxi or Halio?

Fine, but don't give them credit for innovating in their industry when it was forced on them by the PD's in the 2000 and spoon feed to them by the tech revolution.

Manner of the old heads are still crying about it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/taxi-drivers-face-multimillion-euro-legal-bill-in-deregulation-case-1.2506103

You're just moving the goalposts on every single point here. I'll leave to argue with yourself, as I smell some vested interests/bitterness here that I can't be arsed with.

end of the road

markodaly wrote: »

Do you have a source for this? I can understand a certain % but all? No taxi industry in the world has this requirement as far as I know.

i said it's likely to become mandatory. not that it will definitely be come mandatory.

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, €170 is fine, until you realise you need a wheelchair accesable car to avail of it. Which would be €20,000 min.

yeah it's a non-issue. the fee is low as an incentive to buy a wheelchair accessible car. a good car suitable for a high quality taxi is going to cost around 15-20000 euro anyway so you may as well buy a wheelchair accessible one and be fully accessible and future proof. any taxi driver is going to have to buy a car anyway whether it's replacing their old taxi or buying a car specially for taxiing in the first place as they are starting out.

ted1

stonebob wrote: »

Just back from London where I used Airbnb and Uber with great success......Uber was half the price of a taxi and there seemed to be one around every corner ..everyone loves them ..I know there's an argument about regulation of drivers but there's a lot of dodgy taxi drivers too just read the papers ...the drivers were polite ..spotless cars..and they don't tap on..

I used them to Malaysia, 3 people 6km 25c. It’s business model is s race to the bottom. Half the price of taxis , with similar overheads and about 30% of the fate going to UBER. There is no way a driver could support a family.

end of the road wrote: »

i said it's likely to become mandatory. not that it will definitely be come mandatory.

So, you just made that up then. OK

yeah it's a non-issue. the fee is low as an incentive to buy a wheelchair accessible car. a good car suitable for a high quality taxi is going to cost around 15-20000 euro anyway so you may as well buy a wheelchair accessible one and be fully accessible and future proof. any taxi driver is going to have to buy a car anyway whether it's replacing their old taxi or buying a car specially for taxiing in the first place as they are starting out.

A wheelchair accessable taxi, €35,000 please
http://www.freedommobility.ie/viewanad.php?ad_id=1852433

Yea, its a non issue of course. Claiming that anyone can become a taxi driver for €170, when you have to fork out €35,000 in capital to avail of it.
What is your next point of economic wisdom? Claiming we already pay for water? :rolleyes:

howiya wrote: »

Uber doesn't have this covered since any uberwav you get in Ireland will also be a taxi. But sure let's pretend they are the ones responsible.

If you can't see how making new entrants buy a wheelchair accessible vehicle over a normal vehicle would help wheelchair users then I don't know how to explain it any clearer.

I doubt the NTA would have introduced the restriction or the grant aid to help people buy wheelchair accessible vehicles if they didn't have data to support their policy.

You give too much credence to the NTA then. The NTA are a public body, would they not release this data or maybe they have no data to begin with.

markodaly wrote: »

So, you just made that up then. OK

A wheelchair accessable taxi, €35,000 please
http://www.freedommobility.ie/viewanad.php?ad_id=1852433

Yea, its a non issue of course. Claiming that anyone can become a taxi driver for €170, when you have to fork out €35,000 in capital to avail of it.
What is your next point of economic wisdom? Claiming we already pay for water? :rolleyes:

So now you've gone from €20,000 to €35,000...

Throw wheelchair accessible into a search on the likes of carzone and you don't have to spend that much money

https://www.carzone.ie/search/result/cars/keyword/wheelchair%2520accessible

You also conveniently ignore the fact you can get up to €10k grant aid towards your wheelchair accessible vehicle

markodaly wrote: »

You give too much credence to the NTA then. The NTA are a public body, would they not release this data or maybe they have no data to begin with.

As they are a public body you can send them a FOI request if you want the data.

How would they not have data? They licence each taxi, so they know whether a vehicle is wheelchair accessible or not. They know how many taxis are licensed. Simple percentage calculation.

Then there's this survey we do called a census which tells public bodies information about the country's population.

I don't think I'm giving the NTA too much credence at all. It's not rocket science.

end of the road

markodaly wrote: »

So, you just made that up then. OK

A wheelchair accessable taxi, €35,000 please
http://www.freedommobility.ie/viewanad.php?ad_id=1852433

Yea, its a non issue of course. Claiming that anyone can become a taxi driver for €170, when you have to fork out €35,000 in capital to avail of it.
What is your next point of economic wisdom? Claiming we already pay for water?

wo, wo, wo. hold on there a second. a few minutes ago it was 20000. now it's 35000, talk about shifting the goalposts when you got caught out.
the fact is, buying a good car is going to cost, a taxi is an investment for those who are serious about entering the industry. so if you are going to have to buy a good car, it may as well be a wheelchair accessible one, as it's going to cost the same as a number of other top brands. so it's a non-issue.
and yes we do pay for water via general taxation.