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Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

Foxhound38

Just as the title says really.

I notice that online at least (and I know that online isn't exactly a good representation of people in general) even mild skepticism over the benefits of a United Ireland invites immediate accusations of "west-brit" etc.

Is general support for a United Ireland a red line for being a good citizen or republican?

I happen to believe strongly in citizenship and a republican form of government. I also think that a United Ireland would be an unmitigated disaster for people living on both sides of the border from a political, economic, health and security point of view. I do think that a path for unification should be open pending a vote firstly in the north and then in the republic, but as things stand I would vote against it.

What do you reckon?

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fritzelly

SeanSouth wrote: »

A United Ireland will never happen and should never happen. Its an incompatible alliance that cannot work socially, economically or culturally. The solution is a Britain and Ireland federation.

Yep, the UK needs somewhere for their rejected asylum seekers to go

maryishere

The UK and Ireland should work together, just as the islands of Japan work together.

Europe will not allow us to be the tax haven for multinationals in Europe for ever. Germany and France will suit themselves, just as they did during our celtic tiger, when they set interest rates to suit themselves, not our economy.

SeanSouth wrote: »

A United Ireland will never happen and should never happen. Its an incompatible alliance that cannot work socially, economically or culturally. The solution is a Britain and Ireland federation.

Correct. That is the most patriotic solution given how the world will probably evolve in the coming decades.
It is in our interests to stick with our neighbours, a G7 country, just as it is in Tasmanias interest to stick with Australia, their nearest neighbours.

SeanSouth

Ireland has been a net recipient of EU funds since accession to the EEC in 1973 however in recent years (since 2014) it has become a small net contributor.
After Brexit, its likely that the contribution will be larger. I would much prefer to see Ireland aligning itself with the UK rather than the EU. i think our very light-weight government has completely misjudged that. The EU is about Germany and France. No one else matters. Playing the small pawn in such an arrangement leaves us very exposed.

fritzelly

maryishere wrote: »

The UK and Ireland should work together, just as the islands of Japan work together.

But they can't, everything has to go through Europe
Ireland can't be making their own arrangements with outside governments - can't be trusted to be doing that

As for the tax - they already want to control all the taxes, just a matter of time before it happens and then Ireland is truly screwed (ahhh but sure we'll get a little exemption to give time to adjust to it)

end of the road

SeanSouth wrote: »

And why is it important that Ireland is a free independent country. I'm genuinely interested. In my view thats just emotive nonsense that will not put food on the table for future generations.

The fact is that Ireland is a very small country and whereas we can keep our heads above water at the moment through the knowledge economy, the gap is closing and countries like India and China will shut us down eventually if we dont develop some serious survival strategy for the future. A credible strategy would be to align ourselves stongly with a serious player such as the UK. Our government is so light-weight that it cant see around the next bend!! Just my own observation.

we are an independant country. we are perfectly fine. we trade with the uk, that is enough interaction with them. we will remain an independant country. if you don't like that, that's okay, but you can live in britain. ireland won't be part of britain again as there will be plenty of us to insure it.

Donald Trump

maryishere wrote: »

All other groups of islands in the world find the best strategy is to be united with each other.

Tasmania with Australia.
The Canary islands.
Sicily with Italy
The islands of Japan
North and south island New Zealand.

I agree "A credible strategy would be to align ourselves strongly with a serious player such as the UK." We have much more in common with them than anyone else.

Oh rock on Rockall you'll never fall

For Britains greedy hands

Or you'll meet the same resistance

Like you did in many lands

kingchess

And the Falklands with Argentina ????

dok_golf

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Just as the title says really.

I notice that online at least (and I know that online isn't exactly a good representation of people in general) even mild skepticism over the benefits of a United Ireland invites immediate accusations of "west-brit" etc.

Is general support for a United Ireland a red line for being a good citizen or republican?

I happen to believe strongly in citizenship and a republican form of government. I also think that a United Ireland would be an unmitigated disaster for people living on both sides of the border from a political, economic, health and security point of view. I do think that a path for unification should be open pending a vote firstly in the north and then in the republic, but as things stand I would vote against it.

What do you reckon?

For what died the sons of Roísín, was it fame?

dd972

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'll go one better, the solution is an independent reunified Ireland, an independent Scotland and a little England with no nuclear weapons or seat on the UN Security Council, also forced to rejoin the EU, this time under Schengen and the Euro.:pac::pac::pac:

donegal_man

end of the road wrote: »

.............. ireland won't be part of britain again as there will be plenty of us to insure it.

Ireland (with a capital I) was NEVER a part of Britain.

As far as the question posed in the OP goes while my own view is that a united Ireland will eventually happen I don't believe it to be "unpatriotic" to be opposed to it.

Irish Guitarist

I'm old enough to remember how terrifying news reports of the IRA were. When I was eleven Dessie O'Hare (The Border Fox) cut off John O'Gradys fingers and left them in Carlow Cathedral, which was a five minute walk from my house. I kept thinking what's to stop him kidnapping my father or someone else I know next.

If there were a 'united Ireland' the same shit would happen. There would be different terrorists with a different cause, but they'd still be scumbags killing innocent people for absolutely no reason.

Being able to say Northern Ireland isn't part of Britain isn't that important to me. It's more important another generation of people don't have to grow up living in fear of murderous scum.

[Deleted User]

Your birth on this piece of land was a random event, and its history has nothing to do with you. Be proud of what we are now if you like, but harking back to some nonsense before you were even born is a hobby for people who have none.

Gwynplaine

No way. The brits can keep it. A nation of people who annoy each and can never agree on anything. Meetings and discussions and talks and more meetings. Dreadful accents.

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

the 1916 heroes fed nobody any lies. the people of ireland wanted to be free and we are free. we do not want to be part of britain. when we were part of britain, it was against our will. no more will we be colonised. if people want to be part of britain they are free to go and live there.

The people who took part in 1916 were a minority of a minority of a minority. (A minority of tne Irish volunteers, who were a minority of the original volunteers after the split, who were a minority of the Irish people)

They had very little public support.

It was the actions of the British post the rising that turned support, but even then it was a group of political elites that were the driving force, most ordinary people wanted to get on with their lives.
The war of Independence and civil war brought a lot of hardship on ordinary people just trying to get on with life.

But if the men of 1916 looked back would they think that it was all worth it, seeing as after I post this I'm going to watch Sky TV for a while and then see if there is anything left in the sales in Next or Debenhams.

markodaly

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Being opposed to a United Ireland in principle is unpatriotic by definition. For example, how could a Scottish person be patriotic if he supported the annexation of Scotland? Goes against the definition of patriotism. Of course, there are those who are 26 county nationalists, so they would see themselves as patriots of the "Republic of Ireland". Clowns in otherwords

How so? Ireland was never united in the first place under some Irish king or ruler, so why is the concept of not wanting a united Ireland unpatriotic by principle.

It is a subjective term used in a nostalgic and romantic way to stoke up notions of patriotism.

tomwaterford

markodaly wrote: »

How so? Ireland was never united in the first place under some Irish king or ruler, so why is the concept of not wanting a united Ireland unpatriotic by principle.

Surly it's unpatriotic to go againest the wishes of the constitution??

Skylinehead

tomwaterford wrote: »

Surly it's unpatriotic to go againest the wishes of the constitution??

So it's unpatriotic to oppose the 8th, for example? That's in the constitution too.

markodaly

tomwaterford wrote: »

Surly it's unpatriotic to go againest the wishes of the constitution??

Wasn't this taken out for the Good Friday Agreement?

Gay marriage was not in the constitution, yet we changed it.

tomwaterford

Skylinehead wrote: »

So it's unpatriotic to oppose the 8th, for example? That's in the constitution too.

If people don't want a united Ireland. ...perhaps they should campaign to have the aspirations for one removed from the constitution???

Nothing wrong with wanting to change the constitution like??....one look at how ridedly Americans stick to it and won't contemplate change to see how ridcolus it is to not seek to update it for modern means

tomwaterford

markodaly wrote: »

Wasn't this taken out for the Good Friday Agreement?

Gay marriage was not in the constitution, yet we changed it.

THis part of what was inserted

It is the firm will of the Irish nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means.

[Deleted User]

tomwaterford wrote: »

If people don't want a united Ireland. ...perhaps they should campaign to have the aspirations for one removed from the constitution???

Nothing wrong with wanting to change the constitution like??....one look at how ridedly Americans stick to it and won't contemplate change to see how ridcolus it is to not seek to update it for modern means

Because it's easier and cheaper just to ignore it, and assume that most people understand that a United Ireland is obviously more trouble than it's worth.

tomwaterford

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Because it's easier and cheaper just to ignore it, and assume that most people understand that a United Ireland is obviously more trouble than it's worth.

If people took this attitude any constitution changes like gay marragie,abortion etc would never get done

These will never affect me (seriously don't see pint of marriage anyway?) ,but deosnt stop me from taking an interest in them like??

Canis Lupus

I would have thought opposing a united Ireland was just sensible rather than unpatriotic.

markodaly

tomwaterford wrote: »

THis part of what was inserted

Yes, we got rid of our territorial claim on the North and accepted that if it was to come about it would be through democratic means only by the will of the people North and South.

So, where does it say that one is unpatriotic if they do not want a UI?

Jawgap

tomwaterford wrote: »

Surly it's unpatriotic to go againest the wishes of the constitution??

Seriously??

The Shinners doubtless regard themselves as the ultimate when it comes to patriotism and they tried for decades to subvert the Constitution!!!

Skylinehead

tomwaterford wrote: »

If people don't want a united Ireland. ...perhaps they should campaign to have the aspirations for one removed from the constitution???

Nothing wrong with wanting to change the constitution like??....one look at how ridedly Americans stick to it and won't contemplate change to see how ridcolus it is to not seek to update it for modern means

My point is taking the constitution as a barometer for "patriotism" is a pretty silly thing, it means different things to different people. You can have pride in your country without having to refer to a document.

tomwaterford

markodaly wrote: »

So, where does it say that one is unpatriotic if they do not want a UI?

It deosnt say this anywhere?

And I've not said it says such a thing....just wondered (as per title) if it's unpatriotic to not want a united Ireland while the constitution aspires for it??

Wheter you think it's patriotic to go againest the aspirations of constitution,while not wanting or working to change it...is up to yourself like,who am I to pass judgement on others

tomwaterford

Skylinehead wrote: »

My point is taking the constitution as a barometer for "patriotism" is a pretty silly thing, it means different things to different people. You can have pride in your country without having to refer to a document.

I can accept this...as there is an endless list of areas to measure patriotism in

We don't want end up like America and with an out of date but untouchable constitution...but surly anyone this dead set againest it,would propose changes to prevent it from happening?

FrancieBrady

_Kaiser_

It's impossible to have a rational discussion about this topic because of the emotion involved.

The reality is no, a United Ireland would be a very bad idea for what we know today as the Republic. Our "recovery" is built upon property dealings (once again!) and being able to sell our tax haven status to the US multinationals - neither of which are situations which are sustainable in the long term.

The North is an economic sinkhole, and seeing as we are barely breaking even on a day-to-day basis, can't even develop the infrastructure of one average-sized city (which the rest of the country absolutely financially depends on), have massive issues that continue to be unaddressed in the public sector (especially Health and Welfare), and a political class whose only driving goal is to milk the taxpayer for as much as and for as long as they can, then the notion that we can just take on NI is farcical.

Even if we did, the security and civil issues would be immense because the Unionists are unlikely to just shrug and say "oh well, never mind!" now are they? Do we really want a return to troops on the street (even if they are wearing Irish Army uniforms this time)

No, a United Ireland is a fundamentally bad idea but it does serve to distract from a lot of our other problems, and it makes the armchair Republicans (spouting lines and bile they know only from news archives and stories they were told by their older relatives) feel better I suppose, but for most people - on both sides of the current border - it would be a disaster IMO.

There is merit in closer ties with the UK (who we are far more naturally allied and aligned with than the rest of Europe or the USA), but that's even more unlikely so I suppose the status quo is probably the best we can hope for in the medium term.