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Does opposing a United Ireland automatically make you unpatriotic?

Foxhound38

Just as the title says really.

I notice that online at least (and I know that online isn't exactly a good representation of people in general) even mild skepticism over the benefits of a United Ireland invites immediate accusations of "west-brit" etc.

Is general support for a United Ireland a red line for being a good citizen or republican?

I happen to believe strongly in citizenship and a republican form of government. I also think that a United Ireland would be an unmitigated disaster for people living on both sides of the border from a political, economic, health and security point of view. I do think that a path for unification should be open pending a vote firstly in the north and then in the republic, but as things stand I would vote against it.

What do you reckon?

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Your Face

Wanting to keep the North out of the Republic is smart.

Smart and patriotism don't mix.

end of the road

Ronaldinho wrote: »

And Unionists be damned? Is it fair to say that you don't seem to have much regard for their perspective on the issue?

i want the unionists to come join us and build this great nation, and i think they will one day see that we are the country that actually does care about them and want to look out for their interests unlike britain who doesn't care and who have kept them in a situation where their communities aren't growing and prospering. so yes, i actually do care about them, but i believe they have no future as part of britain.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

diomed

end of the road wrote: »

yes, i believe an irish person opposing a united ireland not only makes them unpatriotic, but anti-irish and a traitor as well. one of the fundamental principals of the founding of the irish state is reunification with the north and opposing that is opposing the irish state's existence. reunification is vital going forward to build a better healthier country and the reality is it is the end goal and it will be realised.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkADiJCYS2k

Ronaldinho

end of the road wrote: »

i want the unionists to come join us and build this great nation, and i think they will one day see that we are the country that actually does care about them and want to look out for their interests unlike britain who doesn't care and who have kept them in a situation where their communities aren't growing and prospering. so yes, i actually do care about them, but i believe they have no future as part of britain.

Fair enough - but I think they would have to be totally on board to make it work. And I don't think that is likely to happen for several generations. But what's 50-70 years really in the scheme of things.

I remember as a kid seeing the reporting of the troubles on TV - used to scare the sh1t out of me! And then the Omagh bombings - the first time I was old enough to understand the significance of it. We shouldn't take the progress that has been made through the Peace Process for granted. I've been kind of surprised and a little aghast to be honest at all the talk of unification since the Brexit talks kicked off. Not because I'm necessarily opposed to the idea over the long term, but I think it's too soon for it to happen. I would worry that it could spark a return to sectarianism and set us back decades.

SeanSouth

I think the two islands should unite...................

The republic has shown over and over again that its politics are too immature to regulate itself properly. A united british isles is in everyones interests and if there wasnt so much emotion and bad history surrounding the subject, it would be a great way to go. It doesnt mean that we lose our identity or our irishness (like the Scots or the Welsh) it just means that we have a common administration which would serve all our interests better.

Small farms, Small businesses and Small countries will not survive well in the future. Just my opinion

Greyfox

end of the road wrote: »

yes, i believe an irish person opposing a united ireland not only makes them unpatriotic, but anti-irish and a traitor as well... reunification is vital going forward to build a better healthier country and the reality is it is the end goal and it will be realised.

I think this is the most riddiculous post of the decade. If your against a united Ireland it just means your intelligent are live in the real world. Northern Ireland is lovely, full of great people but it's not my country. Im patriotic and proud to be from the rep of Ireland, some people need to put the history book down. People who live in the past just have a negative impact on society.

bear1

SeanSouth wrote: »

I think the two islands should unite...................

The republic has shown over and over again that its politics are too immature to regulate itself properly. A united british isles is in everyones interests and if there wasnt so much emotion and bad history surrounding the subject, it would be a great way to go. It doesnt mean that we lose our identity or our irishness (like the Scots or the Welsh) it just means that we have a common administration which would serve all our interests better.

Small farms, Small businesses and Small countries will not survive well in the future. Just my opinion

So you are seriously suggesting that we simply return to British rule?
Now what a slap in the face that would be to our history.
Small countries don't survive? May want to literally rethink that.

Jawgap

SeanSouth wrote: »

I think the two islands should unite...................

The republic has shown over and over again that its politics are too immature to regulate itself properly. A united british isles is in everyones interests and if there wasnt so much emotion and bad history surrounding the subject, it would be a great way to go. It doesnt mean that we lose our identity or our irishness (like the Scots or the Welsh) it just means that we have a common administration which would serve all our interests better.

Small farms, Small businesses and Small countries will not survive well in the future. Just my opinion

Really? Us? Too immature?

Maybe......but at least we would never be mad enough to pull a stunt like Brexit, not even as a joke

end of the road

Greyfox wrote: »

I think this is the most riddiculous post of the decade. If your against a united Ireland it just means your intelligent are live in the real world. Northern Ireland is lovely, full of great people but it's not my country. Im patriotic and proud to be from the rep of Ireland, some people need to put the history book down. People who live in the past just have a negative impact on society.

northern ireland is part of your country whether you like it or not.

SeanSouth

As long as people are willing to use emotive and derisory language like "British Rule" we will never move forward.
Did it ever strike you that there might be a reason why 60 million people in the UK are quite happy to be British ? Did it ever cross your mind
that the British might not be the green eyed monsters that De Valera and Collins made them out to be. Did it ever cross your mind that maybe our great leaders might have had their own and very personalised agendas ? Did it ever cross your mind that the leaders of 1916 might have had their own egotistical reasons for becoming "great men' of a new irish republic. As far as Im concerned, the irish people were fed a crock of sh*t one hundred years ago. The leaders of that age would have done us a lot greater service to unite the British Isles than to separate it. Do you really think it makes sense to be more patriotic to one piece of land rather than another. I'm as Irish as the next man. I feel its very important that we celebrate our Irishness and preserve our language and culture. Do we need to have a separate country to do that ? Not at all. It only serves as a niche gravy train for a privileged few. That was the case then and is still the case today. Unfortunately we have an entrenched mindset, "the fighting Irish" "with O'Leary in the grave". I'm very confident that our highly educated young people will kick all that nonsense to touch sooner rather than later. Amen to that

OldMrBrennan83

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ohnonotgmail

end of the road wrote: »

northern is part of your country whether you like it or not.

that you dont even know what a country is means that all your posts on this topic are best ignored

Greyfox

end of the road wrote: »

northern ireland is part of your country whether you like it or not.

Hmmm different laws, different currency, that very clear border...

end of the road

SeanSouth wrote: »

As long as people are willing to use emotive and derisory language like "British Rule" we will never move forward.
Did it ever strike you that there might be a reason why 60 million people in the UK are quite happy to be British ? Did it ever cross your mind
that the British might not be the green eyed monsters that De Valera and Collins made them out to be. Did it ever cross your mind that maybe our great leaders might have had their own and very personalised agendas ? Did it ever cross your mind that the leaders of 1916 might have had their own egotistical reasons for becoming "great men' of a new irish republic. As far as Im concerned, the irish people were fed a crock of sh*t one hundred years ago. The leaders of that age would have done us a lot greater service to unite the British Isles than to separate it. Do you really think it makes sense to be more patriotic to one piece of land rather than another. I'm as Irish as the next man. I feel its very important that we celebrate our Irishness and preserve our language and culture. Do we need to have a separate country to do that ? Not at all. It only serves as a niche gravy train for a privileged few. That was the case then and is still the case today. Unfortunately we have an entrenched mindset, "the fighting Irish" "with O'Leary in the grave". I'm very confident that our highly educated young people will kick all that nonsense to touch sooner rather than later. Amen to that

the 1916 heroes fed nobody any lies. the people of ireland wanted to be free and we are free. we do not want to be part of britain. when we were part of britain, it was against our will. no more will we be colonised. if people want to be part of britain they are free to go and live there.

SeanSouth

People werent "free" after independance. If you know the economic history of Ireland, you will know that the Irish people suffered untold poverty and emigration after that, apart from a brief respite in the 1960s. And as for the thousands who had to emigrate...... Where do you think they emigrated to ? They emigrated to Britain and most of them were very successful and content there. And what about the great leaders who engineered that fine mess. They suffered neither poverty or emigration. When are we going to take off the blinkers. We cant be that stupid. Brain washed, yes. Stupid, no..

Cee-Jay-Cee

I guess I’m unpatriotic too as I never want to see a united Ireland. First of all, I don’t want the staunch bigoted idiotic Unionists from NI being part of this country. Equally I don’t want the staunch republican thugs and criminals from NI being part of this country.

Apart from the above we can’t afford it, the country would be crippled within months.

Even if there was 100% agreement from every single citizen for both Ireland and Northern Ireland, it is never going to happen as the logistics of transferring social, medical, educational services, policing, county councils, etc etc would be an impossible task which would topple government after government in their efforts to knit everything together. This is the thing that puzzles me most, we have politicians on both sides of the border who have talked about a united Ireland many times recently but clearly none of them have given the actual unification process a minutes thought because if they had they’d shut their mouths and forget totally about it.

It will never ever ever happen and with Britain leaving the EU, it’s made it even more impossible.

Jimbob1977

East Germany cost West Germany a lot of money.

But unification was in the heart of almost every German.

Some things, like your nation's integrity, can't be boiled down to cash.

Unification should be the aspiration of every Irish person. Peacefully of course.

P_1

SeanSouth wrote: »

I think the two islands should unite...................

The republic has shown over and over again that its politics are too immature to regulate itself properly. A united british isles is in everyones interests and if there wasnt so much emotion and bad history surrounding the subject, it would be a great way to go. It doesnt mean that we lose our identity or our irishness (like the Scots or the Welsh) it just means that we have a common administration which would serve all our interests better.

Small farms, Small businesses and Small countries will not survive well in the future. Just my opinion

A federation of the British Isles type situation could potentially work I guess. Fully devolved Leinster, Munster, Connacht, Ulster, Highlands, Lowlands, Wales, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia, Cornwall, Wessex and London with a population based senate overseeing the whole thing.

end of the road

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I guess I’m unpatriotic too as I never want to see a united Ireland. First of all, I don’t want the staunch bigoted idiotic Unionists from NI being part of this country. Equally I don’t want the staunch republican thugs and criminals from NI being part of this country.

Apart from the above we can’t afford it, the country would be crippled within months.

Even if there was 100% agreement from every single citizen for both Ireland and Northern Ireland, it is never going to happen as the logistics of transferring social, medical, educational services, policing, county councils, etc etc would be an impossible task which would topple government after government in their efforts to knit everything together. This is the thing that puzzles me most, we have politicians on both sides of the border who have talked about a united Ireland many times recently but clearly none of them have given the actual unification process a minutes thought because if they had they’d shut their mouths and forget totally about it.

It will never ever ever happen and with Britain leaving the EU, it’s made it even more impossible.

we can afford it. the idea that we can't is a lie with no evidential basis, that is perpetuated because all the other arguments failed. transfering all the services is very doable. there are no arguments against a UI. lots of lies which don't stack up however. a UI is going to happen.

P_1 wrote: »

A federation of the British Isles type situation could potentially work I guess. Fully devolved Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Lancashire, Yorkshire, Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia, Cornwall, Wessex and London with a population based senate overseeing the whole thing.

ireland can be counted out of this. ireland is a free independant country.

SeanSouth

And why is it important that Ireland is a free independent country. I'm genuinely interested. In my view thats just emotive nonsense that will not put food on the table for future generations.

The fact is that Ireland is a very small country and whereas we can keep our heads above water at the moment through the knowledge economy, the gap is closing and countries like India and China will shut us down eventually if we dont develop some serious survival strategy for the future. A credible strategy would be to align ourselves stongly with a serious player such as the UK. Our government is so light-weight that it cant see around the next bend!! Just my own observation.

maryishere

All other groups of islands in the world find the best strategy is to be united with each other.

Tasmania with Australia.
The Canary islands.
Sicily with Italy
The islands of Japan
North and south island New Zealand.

I agree "A credible strategy would be to align ourselves strongly with a serious player such as the UK." We have much more in common with them than anyone else.

OldMrBrennan83

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maryishere

end of the road wrote: »

i want the unionists to come join us and build this great nation,

Yeah? Last time more than a few were burnt out, it was made very uncomfortable in many ways, ne temere, Irish language requirements, state job discrimination etc. If there was a united Ireland there would be streets and statues named after Republican terrorists, pictures of "patriots" in the schools, a one sided view of history taught, stamps of Bobby Sands. They would be out, their numbers would be diminished, like last time.

fritzelly

Could we not just let Kerry get the independence they want and take on a different county in the north? Perhaps Fermanagh?

Win Win

Duckworth_Luas

Is their a Boards Loon Alarm that rings whenever one of these farcical threads is opened?

[Deleted User]

end of the road wrote: »

we can afford it. the idea that we can't is a lie with no evidential basis, that is perpetuated because all the other arguments failed. transfering all the services is very doable.

there are no arguments against a UI. lots of lies which don't stack up however. a UI is going to happen.

That seems very convenient. Unrealistic too. Any suggestion that Ireland cannot support the costs of maintaining the North is a lie. Useful, that.

I assume you mean the amount of investment that the UK has spent in the North has also been lies? Or we're all lying when we suggest that the Republic barely has the revenue to upgrade our own service/infrastructure, nevermind the costs involved with helping the North too after integration?

I don't suppose you have any research/analysis showing that a united Ireland is possible without destroying the Republics economy? (based on modern economy, not the boom years)

And no, a United Ireland is not guaranteed. There's plenty of people here in the Republic, and in the North, with no interest in a UI. We would say... for practical reasons. Perhaps you could prove how those practical concerns are inaccurate?

Charles Babbage

riffmongous wrote: »

Well at the time of the micro-entities a lot of other countries we take for granted now were also at the micro entity stage, and Ireland up until the arrival of the Normans was showing signs of moving towards a more centralised system.

Whatever microentities existed, it isn't a good reason to have a modern border on the outskirts of Clones, or between Belcoo and Blacklion.

SeanSouth

A United Ireland will never happen and should never happen. Its an incompatible alliance that cannot work socially, economically or culturally. The solution is a Britain and Ireland federation.

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.