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Child Item

Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

Nekarsulm

News this morning....

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/05/10/4139761-body-of-alan-hawe-being-exhumed-this-morning/

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BarryM

34 pages in this thread, several from today and yesterday.
It is an appalling tragedy, why not leave it at that. Voyeurism is not needed.
There is a word for the rush to print, like stopping to view road accidents, ghouls.

kunst nugget

demfad wrote: »

Clodagh's Mother said only that there was no physical abuse. She is revealing that Hawe had her fooled with everyone else. After the relative came out (was anonymous for a good reason) the Mother and sister clearly understood.

They changed from the priests prompting of 'good man who snapped' to the actuality of a master manipulator as the sister described him. Violence is only one tool in domestic violence to achieve the end of control.

An effective jailer does not have to use violence to keep a person jailed. Only when the person is about to break through the jail door are the extreme measures used. That's why most domestic violence murders and family annihilations occur just before family breakups or fall from graces. Alan Hawe was a text book example.

I get you now. They're saying that based on what happened, he must have been manipulating and abusing his wife and children for years even though they never saw it or realised it at the time. I think that's almost a certainty.

So, couldn't the same be said about him suffering from depression or another mental illness. If he was able to shield his abuse from the family around him, wouldn't he have kept any depression or feelings of inadequacy from others to try and maintain his perceived status?

kunst nugget

Charmeleon wrote: »

Is that ‘definitive’ British study not the same one posted months ago that turned out to be a group discussion on newspaper clippings?

Tbf, the sample size is so small (thankfully) that it would be hard to be in anyway definitive I would have thought.

kunst nugget

BarryM wrote: »

34 pages in this thread, several from today and yesterday.
It is an appalling tragedy, why not leave it at that. Voyeurism is not needed.
There is a word for the rush to print, like stopping to view road accidents, ghouls.

The actual event happened over a year ago. People are commentating on the public inquest. I'd hardly call that ghoulish.

tayto lover

Why did this evil man not just go and hang himself in private and allow his family to live?
I think it's because control and ego meant everything to him. He couldn't bear them living because there was something he was hiding and which he was ashamed of. He didn't want them to find out and maybe didn't want them to suffer the disgrace he feared. Either way he was a vile and evil man. Odd that those two words are anagrams of each other but they're very fitting imo.

Nekarsulm

For many of us who live in Cavan, it was particulary galling that at a memorial service for Hawe in his native Kilkenny and with five Priests present, the leader of the worship give thanks that Hawe had left his native county and moved to Cavan.

kunst nugget

Nekarsulm wrote: »

For many of us who live in Cavan, it was particulary galling that at a memorial service for Hawe in his native Kilkenny and with five Priests present, the leader of the worship give thanks that Hawe had left his native county and moved to Cavan.

Did that really happen? That is beyond awful for a priest to say…

iamwhoiam

Reading the statements from both families I feel a deep sadness for them all . Grandparents on both sides lost 3 grandsons and a daughter and a son
The pain on both sides must be unbearable and for Alan family a horrendous legacy
They are all in my thoughts today

Lollipop95

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don't actually understand what you mean but this is exactly the kind of thing younger when you ask for a definition of evil. Vague and 'tou know it when you see it yourself, like'.
Let me ask the question another way. Is there any advantage to sing the word 'evils that isn't covered by he other disciplines I mentioned above?

For me, the two kids who murdered James Bulger, a 2 year old and the way they carted it out. To me, that's evil.

Interestingly, I watched a video on Facebook of a man who forgave his son's killer. The man (part of a gang) admitted to beating his son to death. When asked how he could forgive him (and even hug him after the tria) the father replied something along the lines like "It was the devil that did this, he got into his mind so I feel pity for him. That's why I forgive him". I can't remember the name of the video but it's an extraordinary watch and makes you realise the extreme faith some people possess

Lollipop95

kunst nugget wrote: »

Did that really happen? That is beyond awful for a priest to say…

I might be wrong but I remember reading that the priest may have been friends with him

[Deleted User]

What was this "fall from grace" that's being mentioned everywhere. And why can nobody say what it is?

BinLiner2

I'm skeptical of the worth and the purpose of admitting opinion from Professor Kennedy

I noticed that the parents of the perpetrator latched onto it in their statement too

JupiterKid

The Hawe massacre, whilst utterly awful, wasn't the only murder suicide of a family on Ireland. Not by a long shot.

Anyone remember the murder suicides in Monageer and Clonroche in Wexford around 2007?

And in previous decades I suspect it was covered up by the authorities as something else.

demfad

kunst nugget wrote: »

I get you now. They're saying that based on what happened, he must have been manipulating and abusing his wife and children for years even though they never saw it or realised it at the time. I think that's almost a certainty.

They are saying that they now recognise his actions as those as of a manipulator and abuser. Talking his word for things they now know not to be true, seeing how he isolated her, controlled her and the children etc.
They witnessed it, they just did not recognise it for what it was at the time.

So, couldn't the same be said about him suffering from depression or another mental illness. If he was able to shield his abuse from the family around him, wouldn't he have kept any depression or feelings of inadequacy from others to try and maintain his perceived status?

Neither his family, nor his doctor or counselor maintain this in retrospect.
The only 'evidence' for this is a 'more likely than not' hypothesis.

Where was the hypothesis from an expert in family annihilation or domestic violence. These would have carried more weight surely as evidence and testimony, and previous cases supports this.

reap-a-rat

JupiterKid wrote: »

The Hawe massacre, whilst utterly awful, wasn't the only murder suicide of a family on Ireland. Not by a long shot.

Anyone remember the murder suicides in Monageer and Clonroche in Wexford around 2007?

And in previous decades I suspect it was covered up by the authorities as something else.

There was another one in Mayo last year as well. A local pillar of the community murdered his wife, tried to murder his son and then committed suicide. The inquest was about a month ago. It's just such a horrific thing to do.

Shurimgreat

I'd question the mental illness diagnoses given that Hawe's GP saw nothing amiss for the previous years.

Far more likely as a motive was the fear his marriage was about to collapse and also this mysterious fall from grace which was about to happen.

There was a significant amount of planning gone into the murders. He knew what he wanted to do and how he would do it.

This was not a case of a nice guy gone mad, far from it.

Nekarsulm

Sergio Georgini wrote: »

What was this "fall from grace" that's being mentioned everywhere. And why can nobody say what it is?

I don't know. My friend lives in the parish, and as you can imagine the shock and incredulity at the time was immense.
One story told to him by a person involved in his (Hawes) GAA club was that Croke Park sent an official down to the club the day after the news broke, and brought all the financial paperwork and accounts etc back to Headquarters for financial analysis.

I never heard if this was confirmed to be true or not.
For people locally, it was as if the summer was wiped out.
Everything they had done, holidays taken, trips to the seaside, days out with their kids, all vanished in the enormity of the the 4 murders.
What it was like for children at the school, and in the boys classes, is hard to imagine.

demfad

tayto lover wrote: »

Why did this evil man not just go and hang himself in private and allow his family to live?
I think it's because control and ego meant everything to him. He couldn't bear them living because there was something he was hiding and which he was ashamed of. He didn't want them to find out and maybe didn't want them to suffer the disgrace he feared. Either way he was a vile and evil man. Odd that those two words are anagrams of each other but they're very fitting imo.

And his family were about to leave him. Not believing a family should have a life separate to his own is a core belief of someone like Hawe. That is why most of these atrocities are triggered by the partner finally having enough and deciding to leave. Exact same motives as femicide, just takes the kids too.

Shurimgreat

reap-a-rat wrote: »

There was another one in Mayo last year as well. A local pillar of the community murdered his wife, tried to murder his son and then committed suicide. The inquest was about a month ago. It's just such a horrific thing to do.

True, and there was a recent case in the UK of a guy who murdered his wife and daughter and probably intended to kill his sons too. His surviving sons called him a terrorist who bullied and threathened them for years.

Nice guys don't suddenly flip and become monsters. Their actions have been brewing for years. Monsters are often nasty people to begin with who progressively become worse.

keith_sixteen

JupiterKid wrote: »

And in previous decades I suspect it was covered up by the authorities as something else.

Any particular cases or evidence for this?

I am sick of people blaming the gubbernment and authorities for all of societies ills. See the current homeless "crisis" for a good current example of this.

People need to remember, we are all (or should be) active members of the society we live in. No doubt there was covering up of all sorts in the past, but it was not just the authorities who were at it.

freshpopcorn

This is just a sentence taken out of The Sun.I'm not sure if it was posted here already.

Dr McKevitt said Mr Hawe was concerned about an issue in work.

“He was concerned about a conflict that had arisen with a colleague and he reported feeling isolated as a result,” she told he inquest.

https://www.thesun.ie/news/1951143/mum-and-sister-of-clodagh-hawe-claim-alan-hawes-imminent-fall-from-grace-triggered-him-to-execute-his-family/

kunst nugget

demfad wrote: »

And his family were about to leave him. Not believing a family should have a life separate to his own is a core belief of someone like Hawe. That is why most of these atrocities are triggered by the partner finally having enough and deciding to leave. Exact same motives as femicide, just takes the kids too.

Where does it say that his family was going to leave him? You make a lot of definitive statements without backing it up.

jobbridge4life

demfad wrote: »

He had been controlling and manipulating her for years. As with all murders and mass murders it is debatable if the killer is ever 'sane' by normal standards during the act. He is sane during those years of abuse and he is sane when he plans the final terminal act in that abuse.

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/remember-clodagh-not-him-relative-8776750

The article you linked does not provide a basis for making the assertions you have above. The annonymous relative had no more knowledge of the inside of that marriage it seems than any of the rest of us, and I quote them:

“We don’t know why he did what he did.

"Maybe she decided to leave him.

"Maybe she got sick of her life with him.

"I suppose the boys were that bit older and maybe she saw a way out.”

I've asked already on this thread, people keep referring to Hawe as abusive and controlling, can someone link to an article where this is set out or alledged in a concrete way?

demfad

kunst nugget wrote: »

Where does it say that his family was going to leave him? You make a lot of definitive statements without backing it up.

I already have. Representative of the family states clearly that the marriage had broken down.

"They were executed in a manner which rendered them unable to cry out for help", added Liam Keane, speaking on behalf of Clodagh's mother Mary Coll and sister, Jacqueline Connolly.

"The inquest does not address why Alan Hawe committed this savagery but his counsellor said that he was concerned about his position as 'a pillar of the community' and we are aware that he was concerned at his imminent fall from that position and the breakdown of his marriage.
"While a psychiatrist has attempted a retrospective diagnosis based on notes and records, his GP who knew him for five years said he never displayed any signs of depression."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42412964

demfad

jobbridge4life wrote: »

The article you linked does not provide a basis for making the assertions you have above. The annonymous relative had no more knowledge of the inside of that marriage it seems than any of the rest of us, and I quote them:

“We don’t know why he did what he did.

"Maybe she decided to leave him.

"Maybe she got sick of her life with him.

"I suppose the boys were that bit older and maybe she saw a way out.”

I've asked already on this thread, people keep referring to Hawe as abusive and controlling, can someone link to an article where this is set out or alledged in a concrete way?

I have already linked to where a relative of Clodagh says this and articles where her Mother and Sister concur. The other people who would most likely know are all dead now.

jobbridge4life

demfad wrote: »

I already have. Representative of the family states clearly that the marriage had broken down.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42412964

Where was this stated? On what basis?

jobbridge4life

demfad wrote: »

I have already linked to where a relative of Clodagh says this and articles where her Mother and Sister concur. The other people who would most likely know are all dead now.

Yet there are articles where they talk about how she never felt in danger, and that she would have left if she felt in danger. They recall seeing him the night before, that there was no sign of anything untoward and that Clodagh seemed happy. It is said he was looking forward to a family holiday in Italy?

Where is the evidence that the marriage was going to collapse?

kunst nugget

jobbridge4life wrote: »

The article you linked does not provide a basis for making the assertions you have above. The annonymous relative had no more knowledge of the inside of that marriage it seems than any of the rest of us, and I quote them:

“We don’t know why he did what he did.

"Maybe she decided to leave him.

"Maybe she got sick of her life with him.

"I suppose the boys were that bit older and maybe she saw a way out.”

I've asked already on this thread, people keep referring to Hawe as abusive and controlling, can someone link to an article where this is set out or alledged in a concrete way?

"He looked like the ideal husband, but he was a controlling kind of person," Mary said. "I would ask Clodagh if she would like to go shopping in Dublin she would have to run it by him first. He could be as controlling with his silence as he could be with his words."

That's the most I can find from a named source.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/exclusive-alan-hawe-was-about-to-experience-a-fall-from-grace-clodaghs-family-believes-36070710.html

tayto lover

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Where was this stated? On what basis?

Under the second picture -

"The inquest does not address why Alan Hawe committed this savagery but his counsellor said that he was concerned about his position as 'a pillar of the community' and we are aware that he was concerned at his imminent fall from that position and the breakdown of his marriage.
"While a psychiatrist has attempted a retrospective diagnosis based on notes and records, his GP who knew him for five years said he never displayed any signs of depression."

jobbridge4life

tayto lover wrote: »

Under the second picture -

"The inquest does not address why Alan Hawe committed this savagery but his counsellor said that he was concerned about his position as 'a pillar of the community' and we are aware that he was concerned at his imminent fall from that position and the breakdown of his marriage.
"While a psychiatrist has attempted a retrospective diagnosis based on notes and records, his GP who knew him for five years said he never displayed any signs of depression."

But where is the claim that the marriage was going to breakdown coming from? It was not something the family were aware of at the time of this horrific murder? What evidence has emerged that the marriage was breaking down?