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Child Item

Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

Nekarsulm

News this morning....

http://www.anglocelt.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/05/10/4139761-body-of-alan-hawe-being-exhumed-this-morning/

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jobbridge4life

demfad wrote: »

https://www.irishnews.com/news/republicofirelandnews/2017/12/19/news/alan-hawe-was-troubled-depressed-and-severely-mentally-ill-in-the-months-before-murder-suicide--1214775/

Professor Kennedy's testimony is at odds with the testimony of Hawe's psychotherapist and doctor.

From his doctor: "Mr Hawe did not have any overt psychological or mental problems leading up to the events on August 29"

That statement is also contradicted by the fact he had been attending counselling in the preceeding period. Furthermore the comments of the Professor Kennedy addressing the difference in accounts is highly relevant: 'Hindsight is always a very unfair advantage'

tayto lover

Lollipop95 wrote: »

See, I accept that he may have had a mental illness and I don't mean to be graphic but if he was that gripped by it, he surely would have given himself the same death he gave his poor family. The fact he chose an arguably less horrendous way to die himself suggests to me he can't have been in a hugely psychotic state

His meticulous planning is what causes confusion.
He wanted to spare certain people the horror of seeing his handiwork yet he butchered his poor wife and kids. The notes he left also give rise to wanting to look look "caring".
They can label him psychotic, mad or whatever they like but murdering bast*** with huge ego is still what I think.

Stuckforcash

suicide_circus wrote: »

Interesting. Mental illness has got a lot of sympathetic press in recent times but it's hard to reconcile it when we see an atrocity like this play out. As for rotting in hell, if he was in the grips of a depressive state so profound that he was able to butcher his own wife and children then we can safely assume that he was living in his own private hell for some time. There but for the grace of god.

Reminds me of a quote from a movie about jack the ripper when the ripper's reluctant assistant is questioning what they are doing:

Jack the Ripper: There, there Netley. I shall tell you where we are. We're in the darkest region of the human brain, a radiant abyss where men go to find themselves.

Netley: I don't understand, sir.

Jack the Ripper: Hell, Netley. We are in hell.

Too many people think of mental health problems as depression, claim to care and yet want to wash their hands of anything other aspects of the whole spectrum when it becomes apparent that there are many potentially harmful or dangerous conditions people can suffer.

Writing this off as the acts of an evil man on an ego trip was always just a simplistic way of brushing it under the carpet for people that simply don't understand the power of the mind.

El_Duderino 09

Carry wrote:

I consider it simply wrong if some Professor makes an assessment after just looking through medical records and at the suicide note. It seems to me that this is an easy way out. Declare the man mentally ill and all is explained.

I think that only applies to living people.
I'd say it's normal to get a professional forensic opinion in an inquest. To review the whole body of evidence objectively

Declaring him mentally ill isn't the end, it's the beginning of the investigation. The lay person will never know the intricate details because they wouldn't understand them anyway. But establishing mental illness opens he door to investigating the actual cause.

Lollipop95

See, I accept that he may have had a mental illness and I don't mean to be graphic but if he was that gripped by it, he surely would have given himself the same death he gave his poor family. The fact he chose an arguably less horrendous way to die himself suggests to me he can't have been in a hugely psychotic state

demfad

https://www.irishnews.com/news/republicofirelandnews/2017/12/19/news/alan-hawe-was-troubled-depressed-and-severely-mentally-ill-in-the-months-before-murder-suicide--1214775/

Professor Kennedy's testimony is at odds with the testimony of Hawe's psychotherapist and doctor.

From his doctor: "Mr Hawe did not have any overt psychological or mental problems leading up to the events on August 29"

Mr Hawe's GP Paula McKevitt told the hearing that she last saw him in her surgery on June 21 last year.

Mr Hawe had been to see a psychotherapist David McConnell on the same day.

The counsellor said the vice-principal had wept when he said to him: "'People think of me as a pillar of the community'. He paused and said 'if only they knew'."

Mr McConnell said Mr Hawe gave no indication that he would harm himself or others. Dr McKevitt said Mr Hawe attended her surgery complaining about a sore toenail.

He also told her he had washed his feet in bleach. The GP said he was a little stressed about work and had not been sleeping.

"His focus was clear and his behaviour was normal," Dr McKevitt said. "Nothing in the consultation raised any concern about his mood that day." She added: "Mr Hawe did not have any overt psychological or mental problems leading up to the events on August 29."

Dr McKevitt said Mr Hawe was concerned about an issue in work. "He was concerned about a conflict that had arisen with a colleague and he reported feeling isolated as a result," she told he inquest.

El_Duderino 09

suicide_circus wrote:

Interesting. Mental illness has got a lot of sympathetic press in recent times but it's hard to reconcile it when we see an atrocity like this play out. As for rotting in hell, if he was in the grips of a depressive state so profound that he was able to butcher his own wife and children then we can safely assume that he was living in his own private hell for some time. There but for the grace of god.

There but for the grace of God indeed. I don't have to be sympathetic or angry about him because I'm untouched by his action. And I'm very grateful to be far removed from the situation.

For me it's most important to investigate the whole thing to learn from it and learn how to identify and prevent it happening in the future. Writing it off as evil is a cop out that precludes the need for investigation.

suicide_circus

C__MC wrote: »

Still deserves to rot in hell

Interesting. Mental illness has got a lot of sympathetic press in recent times but it's hard to reconcile it when we see an atrocity like this play out. As for rotting in hell, if he was in the grips of a depressive state so profound that he was able to butcher his own wife and children then we can safely assume that he was living in his own private hell for some time. There but for the grace of god.

Reminds me of a quote from a movie about jack the ripper when the ripper's reluctant assistant is questioning what they are doing:

Jack the Ripper: There, there Netley. I shall tell you where we are. We're in the darkest region of the human brain, a radiant abyss where men go to find themselves.

Netley: I don't understand, sir.

Jack the Ripper: Hell, Netley. We are in hell.

El_Duderino 09

jobbridge4life wrote:

Moreover it has now been established that it did play a role. Rather than acknowledging that, some people are now twisting things so as to continue their own narrative. That is perplexing.

I think it demonstrates an anxiety that People experience. Saying it's just evil creates a distance between Hawe and everyone else. Mental illness is something that can happen to anyone so it means it could happen to yourself or someone close to you.

Psychological investigation can shed light on the causes and as I said earlier, some people don't want to know what happened because it removes some of the distance between them and us.

It's also why it bothers people that he was outwardly such a good member of the community. It means he fooled the people in his community so he would have fooled you too so you could have fallen victim to him. The solution for some people is to ignore the evidence because the reality is uncomfortable.

tayto lover

Buer wrote: »

My point goes well beyond any sympathy for Alan Hawe. As I said, I've read back over this thread and it goes far beyond not exhibiting sympathy for him (which is something I could fully understand). That's not the same as people commenting with authority on the finer details of mental health and what impact they may have.

How about criticising the family's decisions on burial and funeral arrangements or claiming Hawe had impregnated another local woman? Not exactly helpful for the those who knew the family. The thread has been half sympathy and half salacious gossip.

I think that bit comes down to a certain Fr Felim Kelly who left the parish soon after the funeral whether by choice or otherwise.

demfad

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This is exactly the point. A lot of people actually don't know much about mental illness. People are bombarded with surface level information like 'if you're experiencing depression, talk to someone'. That's only the tip of the iceberg in psychological terms but it's all the public needs to know.

I think a lot of people mistake knowing all they need to know with knowing all there is to know.

The fact that these murder suicides are rare but have common traits means there's a connection which is most likely psychological. It definitely merits investigation.

It has been investigated in large US and UK studies. The common thread is a 'family ownership' world view. Depression is not uncommon with cases of domestic abuse (as revealed by the family). The anxiety/depression is sometimes brought on by worry over the ongoing situation or 'resistance' by the focus of the abuse.

Note the fact that Hawe suffered depression is not cited as a reason for the murders. The vast majority of people with depression do not control or wipe out their families. The common thread is domestic abuse and a patriarcal world view in all studies. The killer tries to regain control through the killing.

El_Duderino 09

Buer wrote:

It's a possibility and a likely one but you cannot, in good faith, claim it was obvious and I say this as someone who believed mental health was a factor.

I'm going a step further and claiming that familial murder suicide is a well documented phenomenon with common traits. So it, by definition, is a fairly clear indication of mental ill health.

I'd imagine that familial murder suicide absent mental illness would be very rare among these incidents.

Buer

Bambi985 wrote: »

What I find incredible is that you actually find it incredible that the general public automatically felt massive sympathy and deep distress at the murder of a young family in the most brutal fashion imaginable at the hands of one of the people closest to them and that overrided any sympathy they had for Alan Hawe. What's incredible about that?

My point goes well beyond any sympathy for Alan Hawe. As I said, I've read back over this thread and it goes far beyond not exhibiting sympathy for him (which is something I could fully understand). That's not the same as people commenting with authority on the finer details of mental health and what impact they may have.

How about criticising the family's decisions on burial and funeral arrangements or claiming Hawe had impregnated another local woman? Not exactly helpful for the those who knew the family. The thread has been half sympathy and half salacious gossip.

Carry

Professor Harry Kennedy, who carried out a report for the coroner based on Mr Hawes' medical records and suicide note, said he had progressed from a long standing depressive illness to a severe depressive episode with psychotic symptoms.

As far as I know it is not permitted and downright unethical to make a psychological diagnosis if the expert in question did never evaluate the patient in person and actually never met them.

What kind of medical records did he base his assessment on? Did Hawe have psychological treatment or was it just the stuff from his GP?

I consider it simply wrong if some Professor makes an assessment after just looking through medical records and at the suicide note. It seems to me that this is an easy way out. Declare the man mentally ill and all is explained.

El_Duderino 09

jmayo wrote:

You have fiddling this tune ever since the start.And as one poster said way back....

I have said the same thing because I think it's obvious that anyone who would do what he did is not in good mental health.
I find that comment so inane I'm shocked it needs response. Of course most people with mental illness don't do what Hawe did. This only highlights the ignorance of the breath of disorders and abnormalities covered by the term "mental illness".

jmayo wrote:

BTW I don't put much store in a lot of mental health professional experts as they often get it ar** ways and some of their diagnosis cockup have left a litany of victims in their wake.

This could only be said by someone whose blissfully unaware of how complex forensic psychology actually is. The harm that's prevented and repaired by those people is immeasurable. The stakes are so high that a mistake can have terrible consequences.

The idea that a lay person's musings and a professional's considered conclusions could be any way comparable, is laughable. Unless you feel you know more than the professionals I'd probably consider putting a bit more store in the experts opinions.

pc7

At the time this happened I had to stop reading papers, threads and watching/listening to the news. I found it so terribly awful and upsetting, I kept thinking of that poor woman and her babies. Their fear and upset that the person who is meant to love and nurture them could do this. I actually threw out a machete/chopper thing we had in the kitchen drawer as it kept reminding me of their case. Now with the inquest I just cannot imagine the pain their family and friends are going through. It’s bringing back all those sad thoughts again. I’ll be hugging my family tighter tonight.

I hope whereever Clodagh and the boys are, if there is something after here that they are together and at peace. That her poor family find the strength to keep going and surviving. As for him I hope he’s roaring (mental illness or not).

[Deleted User]

So mentally ill... does he go into the same bracket as the mentally ill Iraqi doctor that snuffed out her toddler son's life in Kimmage? Or what way are we to be outraged now. It's confusing.

Stuckforcash

jmayo wrote: »

You have fiddling this tune ever since the start.

And as one poster said way back....

Thousands of people
without mental health issues don't commit this crime either. Fairly weak point. What mental health issues are you referring to? Again "mental health" is a term just being bandied about, we're talking about an extreme psychotic illness here, not generalised anxiety disorder.

And you're seriously not going to pay much heed to the expert who has seen all the evidence just because you don't really take mental health issues seriously?

Though very rare, horrendous atrocities can be committed by seemingly upstanding citizens at any moment in their life due to serious psychotic episodes, the sooner it's talked about the better so we can try to prevent it. We can learn from these incidents, the only good we can get from this is to stop it happening again.

Buer

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's obvious in so far as familial murder suicide is not a sign of good mental health. I'd say it's obvious almost by definition.

It's a possibility and a likely one but you cannot, in good faith, claim it was obvious and I say this as someone who believed mental health was a factor.

Without going into hypothetical details, it easily could have been other personal circumstances which led to the actions. We've no idea.

None of us were any way placed to comment with any authority on a situation where we had the broadest of details at best.

Bambi985

Buer wrote: »

It wasn't obvious. It wasn't unlikely either. We had no real idea.

What I find incredible is how many people feel they are well placed to comment without ambiguity and huge judgement on this case with minimal information on the topic.

Reading back over this thread is bleak reading. Not just for the fact that such a shocking, distressing and tragic incident occurred but so many people felt they were well placed to definitively comment on it, repeating rumours and judge the deceased and remaining members of the family and community on the basis of little information.

What I find incredible is that you actually find it incredible that the general public automatically felt massive sympathy and deep distress at the murder of a young family in the most brutal fashion imaginable at the hands of one of the people closest to them and that overrided any sympathy they had for Alan Hawe. What's incredible about that?

To state the obvious, the vast, overwhelming majority of mentally ill people are not a danger to anyone except themselves if at all and do not think of, much less execute this kind of crime nor would it cross their minds in a million years. It's just not an option for most people, be they mentally sound or depressive or bipolar or schizophrenic or psychotic or whatever.

jobbridge4life

jmayo wrote: »

You have fiddling this tune ever since the start.

And as one poster said way back....

Pointing out that there was a possibility that mental health played a role in this monstrous crime is not fiddling a tune. Moreover it has now been established that it did play a role. Rather than acknowledging that, some people are now twisting things so as to continue their own narrative. That is perplexing.

As to the quote from the other poster, it is a canard. Thousands of people smoke and don't die from cancer, it doesn't mean smoking doesn't play a role in cancer.

jmayo wrote: »

BTW I don't put much store in a lot of mental health professional experts as they often get it ar** ways and some of their diagnosis cockup have left a litany of victims in their wake.

Any professional may make a mistake. Deliberately choosing to ignore evidence is just a bizarre reaction.

jmayo

yerwanthere123 wrote: »

The details of the inquest from today are a very tough read. I'd hoped that in the case of the children that perhaps they were killed in their sleep and possibly they knew nothing, but not to be.

Really hope the families involved will eventually find a way to move on.

They will never ever move on.
Their untimely slaughter will be an anchor around the necks of the surviving family till their last dying breaths.
At every supposed happy occasion there will always be a what if they were here.

That is even the case for families who lose a single loved one in much much less despicable awful circumstances, so just imagine how it must be when an entire family is wiped out like this.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

“The inquest into the deaths of a family in Co Cavan has heard that Alan Hawe, who murdered his wife and three sons before taking his own life, had been suffering from a severe mental illness.

Professor Harry Kennedy, who carried out a report for the coroner based on Mr Hawes' medical records and suicide note, said he had progressed from a long standing depressive illness to a severe depressive episode with psychotic symptoms.”
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1219/928436-hawe-family-inquest/

So we can stop saying there’s no evidence of mental illness.

You have fiddling this tune ever since the start.

And as one poster said way back....

s4uv3 wrote: »

Thousands upon thousands of people have mental health issues and manage to not murder their entire immediate family.

BTW I don't put much store in a lot of mental health professional experts as they often get it ar** ways and some of their diagnosis cockup have left a litany of victims in their wake.

El_Duderino 09

Buer wrote:

It wasn't obvious. It wasn't unlikely either. We had no real idea.

It's obvious in so far as familial murder suicide is not a sign of good mental health. I'd say it's obvious almost by definition.

Buer

Stuckforcash wrote: »

Yeah glad to see the obvious has finally been announced. Can't bury your head in the sand anymore now.

It wasn't obvious. It wasn't unlikely either. We had no real idea.

What I find incredible is how many people feel they are well placed to comment without ambiguity and huge judgement on this case with minimal information on the topic.

Reading back over this thread is bleak reading. Not just for the fact that such a shocking, distressing and tragic incident occurred but so many people felt they were well placed to definitively comment on it, repeating rumours and judge the deceased and remaining members of the family and community on the basis of little information.

wakka12

Not often I get tears in my eyes reading news stories. God love them.

C__MC

Still deserves to rot in hell

Mocha Joe

Hawe Inquest in Cavan hears Alan Hawe told counsellor: “People think of me as a pillar of the community; if only they knew.”

El_Duderino 09

“The inquest into the deaths of a family in Co Cavan has heard that Alan Hawe, who murdered his wife and three sons before taking his own life, had been suffering from a severe mental illness.

Professor Harry Kennedy, who carried out a report for the coroner based on Mr Hawes' medical records and suicide note, said he had progressed from a long standing depressive illness to a severe depressive episode with psychotic symptoms.”
https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2017/1219/928436-hawe-family-inquest/

So we can stop saying there’s no evidence of mental illness.

Stuckforcash

Hopefully now that it's confirmed this was a severe psychotic episode we can learn the signs and prevent this ever occurring again.

ohnonotgmail

McCrack wrote: »

No the coronial process is a public one - who was/were the deceased, what happened, when it happened and where it happened

The detail involved is given under oath in a public forum

There is a proper expectation that the facts are laid out - as repulsive, upsetting etc as they may be

whatever dirty little secret he was trying to hide would not form part of a coroner's enquiry.