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Nightclubs- any duty of care?

Roger Hassenforder

So there we were last night in a late bar/nightclub establishment proximal to the GPO in Cork, on our Christmas night out.

No one really drunk, except at the end of the night one of our group was rather suddenly in very poor shape, and i dont recall her knocking back the gat like some of us. (Maybe her drink might have been spiked, maybe she was just wasted, i dunno).

Anyway, while we were minding her and formulating a plan to get her home, over come the bouncers, rather forcibly push us out of the way, lift her outside and deposit her on some kegs. And walk off.

I was struck by how little they seemed to give a sh1t, and if we werent with her, (not that they knew who we were, and whether we were with her), she was in serious trouble. In fairness, a lot of patrons were asking if she was ok, which is appreciated.

Notwithstanding the whole "responsible drinking" and personal reaponsibility for owns own actions, have such bars/clubs any duty of care or responsibility towards their customers.
In 30 years of drinking, i never someone so wasted treated this badly.

Thoughts?

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Beechwoodspark

Isn't it illegal for bars to serve someone who is drunk? Always thought it's a law that is more or less ignored.

falinn merking

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Isn't it illegal for bars to serve someone who is drunk? Always thought it's a law that is more or less ignored.

Look your better off going to a bar to drink in a SUPERVISED establishment.

That girl would have had nobody to fook her out into the street at home.

[Deleted User]

WhiteRoses wrote: »

There's a lot to be said for personal responsibility.

If someone is in a condition where they are a danger to themselves or to others, they have a right to remove them from the premises. They are open to all sorts of liabilities by keeping the person in there.
While the establishment are obliged not to serve anyone who is severely intoxicated, they can't be expected to know every single punters tolerance - in a lot of cases, people are fine and the next minute they're blotto.
Staff can't be expected to know where the tipping point is.
People being worse for wear and needing to be asked to leave is a regular occurrence and if they spent the night babysitting every person they threw out, they'd spend their whole nights outside minding people.

I'm guessing the bouncers saw that you and other friends were with her and thought ye were minding her and she was ok.
If not, I wouldn't be darkening their door again for abandoning a woman in that condition again.

Either way you can't blame them for removing her from the premises when she was in no fit state to be there.

I'd be of the opinion that if you are selling the public a dangerous drunk for profit then you also have a big duty of care to them.

SusieBlue

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'd be of the opinion that if you are selling the public a dangerous drunk for profit then you also have a big duty of care to them.

No one is being forced to buy the alcohol that is for sale though, it isn't poured down anyone's necks.
While the premises has a responsibility not to serve anyone extremely intoxicated, it can't be denied that in a lot of situations, someone goes from handling their drink ok, to being absolutely demented in a matter of minutes.
At that point the onus is on the premises to remove that person for their own safety and the safety of the other patrons.
I agree it's bad form to throw someone out by themselves unaccompanied, and that shouldn't happen.
But ultimately it's up to the person themselves then to decide when they've had enough.
The barman can't be responsible for knowing when a person is close to their limit when each persons threshold for alcohol varies so much.

dxhound2005

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Isn't it illegal for bars to serve someone who is drunk? Always thought it's a law that is more or less ignored.

From this part of the original post, I took it that it was not caused by drink.

No one really drunk, except at the end of the night one of our group was rather suddenly in very poor shape, and i dont recall her knocking back the gat like some of us. (Maybe her drink might have been spiked, maybe she was just wasted, i dunno).

darkdubh

From OPs description think I know which place this is. Never had any problems there but one Eastern European bouncer there is a dour b@llocks.

gctest50

soups05 wrote: »

Many years ago, due to the increase is allegations of spiking, some government body undertook a study. The results were startling, out of something like 613 reported times when young "ladies" reported to A&E having been spiked, there was not one single time where blood tests revealed anything other than alcohol in their systems.....

and it was a complete waste of time n money ( imagine dat ! )

DrIndy wrote: »

............

I have seen a few drink spikings with non-alcohol substances - and they range from completely comatose to intermittent twitching. Drug tests in ED will not show most of these up as they are analogues of other substances (like GHB) so are useless. But what we do is make sure they are safe until they recover enough to go home.

Snotty

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Cant really disagree with anything there , shes responsible for her state. Its the actual removal itself, but chiefly the post removal abandonment thats leaving a sour taste. I doubt they knew she was with us. If a clubs staff did that to my daughter, it would be closed a few months for rebuilding.

Youre correct also. I wont be back.

So you were all standing around this girl debating what to do with her and you don't think a sober bystander who is paid to obverse the crowd wouldn't know you are with her?
What happened was, he seen a bunch of idiots standing around not helping when the girl needed to be taken outside and got some air, so he did it.

Roger Hassenforder

Snotty wrote: »

So you were all standing around this girl debating what to do with her and you don't think a sober bystander who is paid to obverse the crowd wouldn't know you are with her?
What happened was, he seen a bunch of idiots standing around not helping when the girl needed to be taken outside and got some air, so he did it.

Interesting take, as for "standing around not helping", you obviously were not in Cork last night!
She was already "outside" within the club. Does this cause you to review your conclusion?
He didnt just take her out, they effectively just dumped her on some kegs.

21Savage

In Canada, the ****ing server is responsible for how drunk you get :O Personal responsibility not even once. There was a case whereby a server kept bringing drinks to a table and the person ended up dying in a crash on the way home and the server was punished.

corner of hells

Snotty wrote: »

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Cant really disagree with anything there , shes responsible for her state. Its the actual removal itself, but chiefly the post removal abandonment thats leaving a sour taste. I doubt they knew she was with us. If a clubs staff did that to my daughter, it would be closed a few months for rebuilding.

Youre correct also. I wont be back.

So you were all standing around this girl debating what to do with her and you don't think a sober bystander who is paid to obverse the crowd wouldn't know you are with her?
What happened was, he seen a bunch of idiots standing around not helping when the girl needed to be taken outside and got some air, so he did it.

And most likely is there tonight again as well and probably has a pain in his hole looking at drunks unable to look after themselves or each other as well deal with rows , lost coats , handbags etc. yet ultimately in a way he's at fault of perceived indiscretion.

ArtSmart

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I've been a regular clubber since 2008 and I tend to get on very well with bouncers and appreciate the difficult job they do, and I'll be the first to say that a small minority of them are absolute scumbag assholes who should not be allowed to work in a field which involves interacting with and exercising authority over customers. End of story. The same kind of people who shouldn't be allowed to become Gardai, teachers, etc - nasty mindset / attitude to other humans.

The bouncers described in the OP are most certainly in the latter category. In the clubs I frequent, when somebody is clearly incapacitated in this manner, the bouncers take those people aside and make sure they're ok health wise before asking them to leave. What they did in this case is inexcusable behaviour.

I seen what the Op described myself, except in my case they literally dumped the girl on the wet pavement outside the nightclub, then closed the doors. The girls friend, who i knew, ran out to help her, and I also helped.

It was truly astounding. Thing is, these were the 'creme de la creme', bouncers, ran by a 'professional' company, complete with certificates etc. This was 10 or 11 years ago in Galway, a nightclub in Eyre Sq

To add, the girl in question was not 'wasted'. However she did trip in the nightclub. 2 of the bouncers were female.

I would be interested to know the legality surrounding this type of action by bouncers. Again, if was truly shocking, from beginning to end. The bounchers gave NO consideration as to whether the girl had friends with her or not. We had to follow them and be asked to be let out to help her.

Ave Sodalis

ArtSmart wrote:

To add, the girl in question was not 'wasted'. However she did trip in the nightclub. 2 of the bouncers were female.

Similar happened to a friend of mine. I was giving her my packet of polos and they dropped. She bent down to pick them up and a bouncer grabbed her and dragged her out, with enough force to leave bruises. I was sober and she wasn't too drunk.
Same night club I was refused into despite having two IDs with me. Apparently I didn't look like me. Bouncers were just on a power trip.

Usually have no problem with bouncers. I even befriend them if I can. I can't imagine it's always a pleasant job, but there's no denying there's more than a few twats in that profession.

Snotty

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Similar happened to a friend of mine. I was giving her my packet of polos and they dropped. She bent down to pick them up and a bouncer grabbed her and dragged her out, with enough force to leave bruises. I was sober and she wasn't too drunk.
Same night club I was refused into despite having two IDs with me. Apparently I didn't look like me. Bouncers were just on a power trip.

Usually have no problem with bouncers. I even befriend them if I can. I can't imagine it's always a pleasant job, but there's no denying there's more than a few twats in that profession.

Definitely some twats in the profession but remember they deal with drunk twats exclusively and when someone tells me their "bouncer" story, I'll usually side with the bouncer, as I've had plenty of years of pub and club experience, I've been drag out of places by bouncers, but I can savely say, if they dragged me out I deserved it. If I had a good night without acting the bollox or chatting when I should have been listening, I won't interact with them.

Alkers

Personally I think it crazy that an establishment can have one person employed to make the judgement that you're fit to buy another drink and a different person fit to turf you out after you've had it. If a business is going to sell you an intoxicant they should well be required to keep you safe in the aftermath, particularly in the case of a middle age woman who is so drunk that she would be almost defenceless, other than her colleagues were nearby. In this case, to me, the act of the bouncer throwing her out into public from the (relative) safety of the bar, far outweighs the barman who sold her her last drink.

Snotty

Simona1986 wrote: »

Personally I think it crazy that an establishment can have one person employed to make the judgement that you're fit to buy another drink and a different person fit to turf you out after you've had it. If a business is going to sell you an intoxicant they should well be required to keep you safe in the aftermath, particularly in the case of a middle age woman who is so drunk that she would be almost defenceless, other than her colleagues were nearby. In this case, to me, the act of the bouncer throwing her out into public from the (relative) safety of the bar, far outweighs the barman who sold her her last drink.

Complete and utter rubbish, we are moving closer and closer to a society so stupid they take no responsibility for their own behaviour and blame everyone else for their own bad decisions. Once you become an adult, either act like one or expect consequences to your actions.

Alkers

I agree within reason but then you have an establishment which is selling an intoxicant. At what precise point does the liability pass from the drinker to the person who's drinking?

B.A._Baracus

soups05 wrote: »

Many years ago, due to the increase is allegations of spiking, some government body undertook a study. The results were startling, out of something like 613 reported times when young "ladies" reported to A&E having been spiked, there was not one single time where blood tests revealed anything other than alcohol in their systems.

some reported having one or two drinks while the tests showed twice the legal limit. I have often been in the company of people who down many drinks, then swear they were spiked when it goes sideways.

before spiking, it was called having a bad pint. tough guy puking? last pint was sour, that's what done it.

do clubs/pubs have a duty of care, fk no. its called personal responsibility.

Yup. A lot of people like to claim spiking rather than just accepting they drank to much or drank on an empty stomach.

Thing is most of the time you will know if you got spiked... Like having two beers and suddenly on the floor? Think that's a give way.

spurshero

I think there's a bit of responsibility on both sides . When people are practically falling down at the counter no way should they be served . But also drinkers have to me accountable as well for there own actions . It's too easy to blame others . And also as somebody who has spent a fair amount of time working behind a bar it can sometimes be hard to tell if somebody is drunk or had enough to drink . You will know 95 percent of the time but from time to time u will be dealing with people with speech problems or different facial movements etc and it can be hard to judge .

end of the road

Snotty wrote: »

when someone tells me their "bouncer" story, I'll usually side with the bouncer

usually siding with one group just because they have some little bit of power is a bit ridiculous, given you said yourself that there are twats working in the industry.

Snotty wrote: »

I've been drag out of places by bouncers, but I can savely say, if they dragged me out I deserved it.

maybe you didn't. a bouncer dragging you out doesn't make the bouncer right. they very may well be but it's not automatic that they are.

Snotty wrote: »

Complete and utter rubbish, we are moving closer and closer to a society so stupid they take no responsibility for their own behaviour and blame everyone else for their own bad decisions. Once you become an adult, either act like one or expect consequences to your actions.

not really true. this is over exaggerated and blown out of proportion. personal responsibility is alive and well and still in the 99% majority.
however, when a night club simply throws someone who may not be with friends out on the street in a state, and washes their hands of it, someone else has to pick up the pieces. if the gards or other emergency services had been called to deal with the person, sure that's a different story and is fair enough. but simply dumping them out i think is a no no really. maybe i'm wrong.
but what does annoy me is the same club/pub owners turning around and expecting the government to implement protectionist policies that try and force custom back into them.
absolutely it's someone's own fault if they get to drunk, but at the same time it's not the job of randomers to pick up the pieces because someone who was happy to take their money wishes to wash their hands.
where the line is, if there is or should be one, on this exact issue, i don't know .
i certainly wouldn't want to go down the route of nightclubs getting shut down if any thing happens outside them involving patrons who have been in them, like i believe has happened in the uk. that's the complete extreme and i wouldn't support that.
but i do think the pubs and clubs get a little bit to much sympathy in relation to this and i do think they possibly get a little bit to much leeway.

TrustedApple

I think I know the place your on about in cork there is 2 late bars near the gpo and there not night clubs at all.

One is the old oak hate that place just a dogey crowd and they have kicked out same sex couples in there before for kissing each other......

Crane lane is the other one and I do like the place but it's full of drugs. I have seen the bouncers getting so much crap in this pub. Glass bottle aimed at there head and just endless atticks from people if they refuse you in.

Cork I find the bouncers are assholes but sometimes they are right in what they do.

When I was in Waterford in college 2 nightclubs and the bouncers where assholes in one and the other called me by name. The one who where assholes used to follow me around the place and watch me none stop. While the other night club they where so nice to me let me skip the line and all

italodisco

As someone who has worked in clubs etc as a bouncer as a part time weekend job I can say that most bouncers will try to find the friends of the overly intoxicated person first and ask them to take her out.

I've never once seen any of the security throw someone out like the op has suggested unless the person has been aggressive

Mrcaramelchoc

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Must have been some kip if they keep kegs at the door

Really? Is that the general consensus.i didn't know that.

AudreyHepburn

They have a duty of care yes but that in no way absolves you or your friends of your personal responsibilities whilst there.

If some-one is too drunk to be there then they should absolutely have the right to remove them. Your friend was likely to be a danger to herself and others. They had no choice but to take action.

freshpopcorn

italodisco wrote: »

As someone who has worked in clubs etc as a bouncer as a part time weekend job I can say that most bouncers will try to find the friends of the overly intoxicated person first and ask them to take her out.

I've never once seen any of the security throw someone out like the op has suggested unless the person has been aggressive

I don't know have things changed a lot in Cork in the last few years but they bouncers in Cork do not do this!

Big Bag of Chips

OP, I'm confused. Were you as a group with her or not? On one hand you seem to say you were all there minding her, yet on the other she was thrown out and left alone?

Your question about duty of care is an interesting one. Although how many people were in the night club that night? And how many were over the legal drink-driving limit? How many stumbled home that night? Is the night club supposed to be responsible for each and every one? What if you in your slightly tipsy state stumbled off the footpath and injured yourself? Whose responsibility would that have been? Do the nightclub have a duty of care to make sure every person leaving is capable of leaving and unlikely to injure themselves/drive/start a fight?

If that's the case maybe the way forward is 2 two drink limit per customer. The bouncers, or establishment, can't be responsible for everyone after the fact, so maybe the only "duty of care" they have or can exercise is to limit the amount of drink they serve so it doesn't get to that point?!

whisky_galore

TrustedApple wrote: »

I think I know the place your on about in cork there is 2 late bars near the gpo and there not night clubs at all.

One is the old oak hate that place just a dogey crowd and they have kicked out same sex couples in there before for kissing each other......

Crane lane is the other one and I do like the place but it's full of drugs. I have seen the bouncers getting so much crap in this pub. Glass bottle aimed at there head and just endless atticks from people if they refuse you in.

Cork I find the bouncers are assholes but sometimes they are right in what they do.

When I was in Waterford in college 2 nightclubs and the bouncers where assholes in one and the other called me by name. The one who where assholes used to follow me around the place and watch me none stop. While the other night club they where so nice to me let me skip the line and all

Used to like the CL but it's become an epicentre of scum (the clientele that is) and I'd watch my stuff like a hawk in there.

I found the bouncers not to be too bad, but then again I don't lose control and I'm not of the demographic that looks for trouble. On the very very rare occasion we were refused at one door we simply used the other one.

Alkers

AudreyHepburn wrote:

If some-one is too drunk to be there then they should absolutely have the right to remove them. Your friend was likely to be a danger to herself and others. They had no choice but to take action.

What does kicking the person out and leaving them alone outside achieve?

Ave Sodalis

Snotty wrote: »

Definitely some twats in the profession but remember they deal with drunk twats exclusively and when someone tells me their "bouncer" story, I'll usually side with the bouncer, as I've had plenty of years of pub and club experience, I've been drag out of places by bouncers, but I can savely say, if they dragged me out I deserved it. If I had a good night without acting the bollox or chatting when I should have been listening, I won't interact with them.

Absolutely. I don't drink and still go out so I've had my fair share of what drunk people can be like and there's no way I would be a bouncer. This girl did absolutely nothing wrong except bend down to pick up the packet of dropped polos. There was also no reason to not let me in when my IDs were never a problem before that, or after that. Like I said, I'm completely sober 99% of the time so I was hardly causing any issues. The bouncers were just pricks in this place.

RasTa

The bouncers in England are trained and professional. The ones over here are jokers, been awhile since I've stepped inside a place in Ireland with bouncers so that might have changed.