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Child Item

We need more Prisons

hurler32

The Government announce Capital Investment programmes for Time, Im sure im not alone when I say we need a new prison or 2. The hard facts are we have no prison space hence hundreds are on Bail at any given time free to commit more crime like that poor Elderly Mans ordeal in Terenure this week. Others like those cousins in Limerick where the man dies as his house was been burgled get micky mouse sentences.
Dublin has lost count of the weekly shootings where as many parts of Rural Ireland are just burglary after burglary with no consequence . Extra Jails /Prison Space might help the lawlessness out there?

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scopper

We have a model for what a prison society looks like, the US, and that model tells us that prison generates a wider criminal culture. Of course they are important, but it's something to consider cautiously.

corner of hells

spindex wrote: »

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Roughly 60% of inmates re-offend upon release, so I'd say, it probably, overall, wouldn't do much. Out of sight, out of mind isn't working. Time to try something different

Put them up again a wall, one bullet, bang bang. All over

Bang , bang , is that not two bullets or an echo ?

splinter65

MrPudding wrote: »

Yeah. It's working great in the UK. :rolleyes:

MrP

It is actually. It’s staggering the amount of lone patents in the UK that suddenly found 16 hours work per week to beat the benefits cap.

splinter65

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

But what happens if the mother goes and has 5 kids, and she can't afford to look after them, starving etc? Do we just let them die?
I agree these idiots shouldn't be having loads of kids, but it's not the children's fault they were born so should they really have to suffer based on their parents poor choices?

First if you’ll find that if she knows she’s not going to get any more money she’ll suddenly discover contraception, or she’ll suddenly find herself at work, supporting her own children.

Potential-Monke

The problem with rehabilitation is that the offender has to be willing to try it. From my experience, very few want to be rehabilitated. Also, if it's not working, why do 'some' criminals change their ways, but not others? Because they don't want to, that's why. The idea of a normal job with wages is foreign to them.

Roger Hassenforder

begbysback wrote: »

Pity we haven't actually gotten round to attempting genuine rehabilitation in this country then

True
We're not punishing effectively IMO either.

Roger Hassenforder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not implying you were against abortion.

I'm asking you (for the thrid time):

"Have more kids, support them yourself" only works if you can be 100% sure neither the parents nor the kids will resort to crime out of desperation if nothing else because the State isn't supporting them. Can you be sure of that?

"There will not be a fourth" - Hans Gruber.

Soz
I thought id answered you.
Theres no certainties or guarantees in life.

Now your turn to reciprocate!

begbysback

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Where attempted genuine rehabilitation has failed, thats an option all right in my book.

Pity we haven't actually gotten round to attempting genuine rehabilitation in this country then

server down

Victor wrote: »

Preventing crime in the first place is much more important than locking people up.Or, having attended prison, they have learned from others and become high-level burglars.

That’s all a failure of rehabilitation. It means that the prison service isn’t working in its secondary capacity of rehabilitation. The primary function is putting people away.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

What are you asking me?

Allow abortion? Go for it.
If someone finds themselves with a pregnancy and they're either unable/incapable/unwilling to support the child, im ok with it. Particularly where theyre unable. (Id prefer they adopt the child, but thats just an opinion)
Youre barking up the wrong tree with your "repeal 8th". Im not against abortion.

Anythehow, How do the current state supports ensure they dont turn to crime?

Not implying you were against abortion.

I'm asking you (for the thrid time):

"Have more kids, support them yourself" only works if you can be 100% sure neither the parents nor the kids will resort to crime out of desperation if nothing else because the State isn't supporting them. Can you be sure of that?

"There will not be a fourth" - Hans Gruber.

Roger Hassenforder

backspin. wrote: »

We need a landfill for anyone with more than 10 convictions.

Where attempted genuine rehabilitation has failed, thats an option all right in my book.

Roger Hassenforder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

My "menality" is covered in original post: allow abortion.

Now, you want answer the question posed in the post you replied to or accept your idea won't work?

"Have more kids, support them yourself" only works if you can be 100% sure neither the parents nor the kids will resort to crime out of desperation if nothing else because the State isn't supporting them. Can you be sure of that?

What are you asking me?

Allow abortion? Go for it.
If someone finds themselves with a pregnancy and they're either unable/incapable/unwilling to support the child, im ok with it. Particularly where theyre unable. (Id prefer they adopt the child, but thats just an opinion)
Youre barking up the wrong tree with your "repeal 8th". Im not against abortion.

Anythehow, How do the current state supports ensure they dont turn to crime?

Roger Hassenforder

MrPudding wrote: »

If you are one of the people that think we should bring back the death penalty, public floggings, slopping out, slavery for criminals, and longer sentences for any crimes, then you need to ask yourself if you are actually interested reducing crime and recidivism and improving society (as opposed to simply punishing people) because those things are not compatible.

MrP

A bit of both.
We've neither at the moment
And i dont think harsher sentencing and effective rehabilitation are mutually exclusive.
Im all for giving a guy a chance, but dont make a mug of me. But i also believe theres some crimes the perp forfeits any right to exist.

Roger

The Ging and I

Give Spike Island to Mr O Leary to be run as a private prison - he would make the crims pay ... and pay.... :-)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

It applies to everyone not on social welfare...
Your mentality is almost akin to paying them off, and still no guarantee they wont resort to crime!

When did we stop being responsible for our mickeys and vags?

My "menality" is covered in original post: allow abortion.

Now, you want answer the question posed in the post you replied to or accept your idea won't work?

"Have more kids, support them yourself" only works if you can be 100% sure neither the parents nor the kids will resort to crime out of desperation if nothing else because the State isn't supporting them. Can you be sure of that?

MrPudding

splinter65 wrote: »

No introducing a benefits cap will work fine.

Yeah. It's working great in the UK. :rolleyes:

MrP

Roger Hassenforder

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Eh... no, it won't.

"Have more kids, support them yourself" only works if you can be 100% sure neither the parents nor the kids will resort to crime out of desperation if nothing else because the State isn't supporting them. Can you be sure of that?

It applies to everyone not on social welfare...
Your mentality is almost akin to paying them off, and still no guarantee they wont resort to crime!

When did we stop being responsible for our mickeys and vags?

MrPudding

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I tbink i recall reading a report that mentioned the recidivism rate among offenders subjected to capital punishment was almost 0%.

Would it be sensible to perhaps look at other countries for guidance? We could look at the good old US of A. They have the death penalty, they have non-concurrent sentencing, they have 3 strike rules, they have chain gangs and they have high level of recidivism, over 70% within 5 years.

We could look at Norway too. Norway actually tries to rehabilitate its prisoners. First, it is very picky about what criminal it actually sends to prison and has various programmes to help convicted criminals, those sent to prison and those not sent to prison. The prisons are very, very cushy and their recidivism rate is around 20%.

So here's the thing. Study after study, and real world experience shows that most of the ideas being mooted in this thread don't actually do anything to rehabilitate criminals or reduce recidivism. If all you want to do is punish people and make them suffer, then perhaps they do that job, but if you are actually interested in improving society, rather than punishing individuals that commit crime, then moving more toward a model like Norway's is the better solution.

I suspect that in Ireland, like in the UK, any move towards a model like Norway's would be greeted by howls of protest. Any move that shows any kind of compassion or desire to help criminals is screamed down, even though, as Norway shows, it would be much more effective in rehabilitating criminals, reducing crime and improving society generally.

If you are one of the people that think we should bring back the death penalty, public floggings, slopping out, slavery for criminals, and longer sentences for any crimes, then you need to ask yourself if you are actually interested reducing crime and recidivism and improving society (as opposed to simply punishing people) because those things are not compatible.

MrP

Roger Hassenforder

Omackeral wrote: »

Death penalty is grand until you kill someone who's actually innocent. People are acquitted and have convictions overturned. Can't do that for a dead person.

True. So id reserve it for certain either particularly heinous crimes, or repeat offenders where theres incontrovertible evidence.

And im sure many victims would sleep better knowing their tormenter isnt up for parole next year.

Kimbot

wakka12 wrote: »

Why make spike island a prison again? its historic and interesting, leave it for the public. Theres plenty of land around to build some ugly looking modern prison to keep criminals in

Sure didnt they spend a fortune on land for thornton hall to build a prison.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/pac-to-investigate-spending-of-50m-on-thorton-hall-1.2102148

Roger Hassenforder

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Well, the way things are now it's inconvenient for educated hard working people to have kids but convenient for poor people on welfare to have kids. It looks like your Antos and Shania's will far outnumber Rossas and Sorchas in the future.

Do you not see something inherently wrong with the very people paying for all these Antos and Shanias, are unable to afford a Rossa for themselves because theyve already a Sorcha and Caoimhe, are up to their eyes in a mortgage, spending hours commuting past the very houses where Shanias auld man sleeps off his latest bout of drinking in the Rob and Kill Tavern, while Antos mother gets drilled by A.N.Other so she can get a bigger house for the trampoine and be nearer to her ma?

I love kids. We would love another one or two, despite my back and left knee being shot from piggybacks. We have all the Peppa pig stuff in the attic. Can we afford them? No. Is our house big enough for two more? No.
So what do we do? Act responsibility.

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

But what happens if the mother goes and has 5 kids, and she can't afford to look after them, starving etc? Do we just let them die?
I agree these idiots shouldn't be having loads of kids, but it's not the children's fault they were born so should they really have to suffer based on their parents poor choices?

Existing kids need to be looked after by the state, no argument there. But at the moment these kids are also being lost.

whisky_galore

wakka12 wrote: »

Why make spike island a prison again? its historic and interesting, leave it for the public. Theres plenty of land around to build some ugly looking modern prison to keep criminals in

They tried rebooting Spike one time, it didn't end well.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/features/sparks-flying-on-spike-new-memoir-looks-at-infamous-riot-on-island-prison-453874.html

“Spike Island was a powder-keg. It could have gone up at any time. It was totally, totally unsuitable for prisoners.”

[Deleted User]

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I tbink i recall reading a report that mentioned the recidivism rate among offenders subjected to capital punishment was almost 0%.

Death penalty is grand until you kill someone who's actually innocent. People are acquitted and have convictions overturned. Can't do that for a dead person.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

splinter65 wrote: »

No introducing a benefits cap will work fine.
SW medical card HAP for you and your 2 kids.
Have more kids support them yourself.
Different rules for people left parenting alone by a bereavement.

Eh... no, it won't.

"Have more kids, support them yourself" only works if you can be 100% sure neither the parents nor the kids will resort to crime out of desperation if nothing else because the State isn't supporting them. Can you be sure of that?

Also, the youngest kids are the ones who are going to suffer and grow up resentful.

Wanderer78

hurler32 wrote: »

What's your solution ? Continue as is with criminals etc laughing at the law abiding ?

no clear solutions, but things such as poverty, inequality, inadequate social institutions that fail to deal with complex social problems and in some cases exberating them, certainly dont help

wakka12

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I've been saying it for years, and it's the one thing that annoyed me so much when I was a Garda. One of my early experiences in AGS was when we used to transport prisoners convicted in court to a custodial sentence. We would have bring the prisoner down to the jail, and return back to the station. Where I was based, this was usually at least 2 hours away. We brought one lad to Cork prisoner one afternoon after he was convicted to 3 weeks for a burglary (nothing taken, no damage, but previous convictions for the same). We got there at around 13.30. Dropped off the prisoner, got something quick to eat (as no lunch that day due to the escort), and were coming back into our station area, and there was pal walking back into the city from the train station. Stopped and asked him 'WTF!?', and he said they had no room, gave him €20 and a train ticket, and he was back the same time as us!

So yes, we should have at least 1 more prison. I wanted Spike Island re-opened for high profile criminals, but instead they made it into a tourist attraction. There is not enough room to keep repeat offenders in, and they end up back on the street and doing the same as usual, knowing that it will take a lot or something really serious to land actual prison time, so the lovely criminals of this country commit crime knowing this, and laugh at the Gardaí who are constantly arresting them over and over for the same things, even while out on bail.

So yes, more prisons should be a priority. I'd rather they be locked up and off the streets, rather than swanning around while on bail, still committing crime. It's a joke. And concurrent sentencing... There should be no such thing! Gowl the other day, out on bail for a serious offence, committed the same offence again, and got a concurrent sentence... I know rehabilitation is the key, but this country can't do that right yet, so until then, more prisons, longer sentences. Out of sight, out of mind is right in this case.

Why make spike island a prison again? its historic and interesting, leave it for the public. Theres plenty of land around to build some ugly looking modern prison to keep criminals in

hurler32

Wanderer78 wrote: »

and that solves our crime issues by????

What's your solution ? Continue as is with criminals etc laughing at the law abiding ?

Roger Hassenforder

Wanderer78 wrote: »

and that solves our crime issues by????

I tbink i recall reading a report that mentioned the recidivism rate among offenders subjected to capital punishment was almost 0%.

topper75

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Probably wouldn't do much to reduce crime rates, might even increase them

Leftist extremism seems to be rife these days in Ireland.

Clearly, even with the thieving crims banged up, Gardaí would still have their hands full.

Dr Crayfish

splinter65 wrote: »

No introducing a benefits cap will work fine.
SW medical card HAP for you and your 2 kids.
Have more kids support them yourself.
Different rules for people left parenting alone by a bereavement.

But what happens if the mother goes and has 5 kids, and she can't afford to look after them, starving etc? Do we just let them die?
I agree these idiots shouldn't be having loads of kids, but it's not the children's fault they were born so should they really have to suffer based on their parents poor choices?