uptherebels wrote: » wow....you know that's not 100% effective..?
Sweetemotion wrote: » Well then pull the feck out.
Sweetemotion wrote: » I wouldn't trust my brakes if I knew I did something that might make them fail or I wouldn't trust my fridge if I left the door open.
Kiwi in IE wrote: » I don't think we need to delve too deeply into that analogy. People trust that brakes, contraception, fridges, etc will work as intended. Sometimes they don't and unwanted consequences occur.
Thirdfox wrote: » You see that I addressed the age to vote time limit arbitrariness in my paragraph already? Mainly goes back to - missed the voting age by a day - the world isn't going to end (in all likelihood)...missed the abortion cut off date by a day/week/whatever leeway they give it - it could be the end of the foetus (or not). No need for a capital L in lawyer - the profession isn't a proper noun - and indeed the only alternative to arbitariness is an even more unappealing subjectiveness i.e. at the discretion of the consulting physician or by some other arbitrary "human" definition - has the foetal heart started beating, brain activity etc. But you may have missed my point which is I cannot distinguish when a human should be legally protected from abortion and when it should not - and that is one of the main reasons I am unable to vote for its legalisation. And I should clarify - abortion obviously is already legal in Ireland (under the terms of the X case), but I currently cannot support the expansion of abortion.
Joeytheparrot wrote: » What? Are you not fully aware of the X Case at all?
Consonata wrote: » You do realise you cannot take the MAP after every sexual activity. That isn't remotely healthy.
Sweetemotion wrote: » If I had known my brake line could have been the night before, do you think I would trust the brakes? Would you?
Consonata wrote: » Because we need to set arbitrary time limits in order to legislate effectively. For the age to vote for example, nothing meaningful has changed between 17 and 18. Its just thats the time when you can vote. As a Lawyer, How do you propose to legislate for abortion if not by an arbitrary time limit?
Sweetemotion wrote: » The point is I know it could have because of something I did.
Thirdfox wrote: » What's hard to understand? The girl was in the UK already - the Gardai had no power to make her return to Ireland. We must have different definitions of clearly indeed - isn't the fact that the X case came up a clear example that the 8th amendment (as understood by the SC in the X case) is unenforceable? The girl had already travelled to the UK so how does this show anything other than the unenforceability of the SC's interpretation of the 8th amendment? The 8th didn't prevent the girl from travelling to the UK and the X case only went up to the SC because the family travelled back to Ireland voluntarily. Is it clearer to you now?
Flying Fox wrote: » Seriously, how is this so hard to understand?
Consonata wrote: » The point is you don't know if its been broken.
Sweetemotion wrote: » It is. I'm not driving my car in the morning knowing my brakes are defective. That would be stupid.
Kiwi in IE wrote: » Just as ridiculous as saying that a pregnant woman who had used contraception that failed, should have taken the morning after pill if she didn't want to be pregnant, even though she likely didn't know that the contraception had failed until she did the pregnancy test.
Flying Fox wrote: » It's really not. Suggesting the use of emergency contraception on a regular basis is though.
Specialun wrote: » they have access to the pills no. ie they can get them. i didnt say legally accessible
Sweetemotion wrote: » That's just being ridiculous.
Flying Fox wrote: » Because protection works the vast majority of the time. Take an example of a woman on the pill, in a relationship and having sex around twice a week. You're suggesting she should take the MAP every time she has sex just because there is slight chance her contraception will fail. A slight chance means roughly 1% chance of failure over the course of a year. Do you have any idea how unsafe it would be to take the MAP eight times a month? Or should she just keep her legs closed, wait til marriage and then pump out a baby a year til the menopause?
Kiwi in IE wrote: » Car brakes don't always work either, but it'd be a bit silly to blame someone who'd been in an accident because of failed brakes and say "well you should have taken the bus this morning".
NuMarvel wrote: » What's hard to understand? The girl had been raped, she and her parents wanted to get an abortion, and they'd ask the Gardaf doing so would jeopardise any criminal case. It's completely understandable why they'd comply with the Gardan that instance. We must have different definitions of clearly, because you haven't shown that at all. The relevant SC judgement was that the 8th could be used to prevent travel. How have you shown that this judgement was "clearly unenforceable"?
Thirdfox wrote: » And I too have tried to look at it from a scientific (with a humanist bent) view - spiritual doesn't fact in the argument at all in my household. The scientific view is one that throws up 1 of my 2 key problems with abortion - that of imposing an arbitrary limit on the availability of abortions. As I've posted on the humanities side of boards (I'm not usually found perusing AH to be honest!) while as a lawyer, I understand the need for arbitrary time limits on certain activities - drinking age, driving age, voting age, age of consent etc. for human life - I find this arbitrariness highly troubling. Why is a 12 week 0 day 0 hour 0 minute 1 second foetus "unabortable"? What has intrinsically changed from 1 second ago that made this "thing" deserving of legal protection and not 1 second ago? For the drinking age - you can say bad luck, come back next year when you're old enough...for the time of determining when life is deserving of legal protections how do we decide, what are the distinctions (other than arbitrary) and do I trust the Irish politicians to be able to make that decision?
Sweetemotion wrote: » You've just said "Protection doesn't always work" that looks black and white to me, from your own words. Why are all these people who don't want to get pregnant not getting pregnant?
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