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Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Grizzly 45

Picked this up on an FB page from a local group of Munster deer hunters.So treat this as TOTALLY UNCONFIRMED..

As we know the newbies applying for a deer license for Jan 2018 season, will be required to do the HCAP or similar to be considered for a deer hunting license, and the rest of us will apparently have to do the HCAP within a fixed date within the next five years or so.This will be decided apparently by some sort of lottery system applied by NPWS. Don't do the HCAP within a certain timeframe, no deer hunting license for you lad/lady!

Considering this is coming from a state body that has been caught out on makey up law on things like; No Semi-autos are legal for deer hunting, You need 100 acres plus for a license, and .223 is perfectly legal for deer hunting here... You gotta ask is this legit or even plausible.The lad who posted this "claims" to have written an email to the dept and was informed that it's the ministers intent and will to follow this thru on a recommendation of the deer interest groups.:(: mad:

So , has anyone had this blip on their radar ?Or anything of the like? Can we get confirmation or denial of hostile intent?Going by my experience this year, I'd say the hostile intent is very possible, if not plausible.And if so, can we mount a campagin against this before January?

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ayagerard

there is no doubt it is the same mayfainers stirring the same **** pile with a new stick, i only hope our minister isn't wearing a winkers to be lead up the garden path by this shower ,looks like it is time to resend all those emails again ,make a few phone calls , every time these guys put there heads up they will gain ground if we let them , all we have to do is show them for what they are , question there history , what gain they have in all this ,and show who benefits from these new rules, regulations , courses,
what they should be doing is providing these free to get people into the sport mabe the minister will provide grants to assist new intrents in dealing with the soaring costs involved by hunters in there initial out lay ,
but again it is only there own interests they serve , history is on our side here and we must highlight it , ironically they voted themselves in and we didn't think much of it , but they need sorting out now, they certainly don't represent me and will be making no money from me , it is the generations to come that will lose out if they get there way , all the laws that are needed are in place we don't need any more , if we do private enterprise must not be allowed to benefit from it , what have they done with all of the money they have got so far

cavan shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Something is stirring again...This was in Agriland,the indos online paper for farmers.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/first-time-applicants-for-deer-hunting-licences-may-have-to-undergo-training/

FFS..... cant they just back off a while. Bet a certain man is up there lobbying like **** to bring it in........:mad:

Grizzly 45

Something is stirring again...This was in Agriland,the indos online paper for farmers.

http://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/first-time-applicants-for-deer-hunting-licences-may-have-to-undergo-training/

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

"Qualified" no doubt by the "we were here first,and wrote the rule book" law:rolleyes:Coilte will determine it no doubt on that basis as they were the ones who instigated this whole requirement and it is/was a buddy.buddy deal, with no official dept approval.

So in short, they're not qualified.

Yet they categorically state that it is the HCAP or nowt.For a lease application,not for hunting in the woods with whomever.

I read, or rather skimmed over, the Coilte manual but can you show me where it states specifically that only the HCAP will suffice. If memory serves it actually said "HCAP or equivalent".

Not much of a difference then..And is that for the entire course or just per module?Remember anyone like BASC ,etc are going to have to travel, bring materials, etc,so that's going to add to their cost of the course.

I've no idea, the info i gave is only stuff i've found in relation to your point about the cost.

As for other expenses, who knows. No point in speculating. Way too early in the game for that.

It's now an umbrella group that calls itself DAI/HCAP as it is another alphabet soup of initials, a lot of old-timers still know it as WADI/HCAP:)

I know who the groups are. Deer Alliance, WDAI, Wicklow deer crowd, NPWS, and one or two others according to the proposal.

Wasnt there alot of grumbling at the time of the price of the game handling course?450 euros sticks in my mind...?Hence the low uptake.

It started of expensive alright. Not sure it was €450, but it wasn't cheap. However the price dropped to €240 or so i believe. The problem i heard of is the way it was ran. 20 or 30 lads doing it, with say €9,000 taken in monies, then told the course is not paying for itself.

So tell me how a one day course that takes in thousands can create a loss? There were mutterings about the conditions of the place it was held and the lunch provided but that is secondary to the actual monetary issues.

Do NOT be surprised if some wise arse [we know who] and pals decide to try and add this string to his bow.

Swear to Christ if i see their name coming close to it, i'll finally throw the rule book out the window, and let loose. Everything everyone is afraid to say for fear of reprisals won't matter a sh*t.

But I cant see it happening too easily with possible Brexit complications in qualifications and STG/Euro in the future exchange rates.

Won't pretend to know or understand all the ramifications of Brexit, but i cannot see how it'll have any effect on a course other than the exchange rate which frankly cannot be as bad as i was a few years back when it was 70p to the Euro.

It would be probably the most logical and cheapest way of doing things no doubt.We don't lengthy months of instruction on the basics of shooting a deer safely.But of course once a govt dept gets involved logic and common sense goes out the window...

The trend with shooting and the government is to set the standard and have us police ourselves. So i cannot, or hope not to, see too much interference. Famous last words though.

The deer license and tags haven't gone away you know.

I know.

However one step at a time. We need to manage the way any future course will take shape, who will run the courses, the fees and all the important stuff that will alow the sport to continue. Then the finer details of tags, selling meat, etc. can be addressed.

I met my FCP rep over the Christmas and asked him to make it a priority in relaying information about the deer side of things as soon as he gets it. I don't like playing catch up and definitely not against something that was done 18 months ago and only released for public consumption 3 months ago.

Grizzly 45

[*]Who are Coilte to determine that the current HCAP and those that run it are qualified?
[*]If a new course is produced and must abide by a regulated standard as set out by the Government then are all past courses/certificates valid as they were run without SOPs to abide by?

"Qualified" no doubt by the "we were here first,and wrote the rule book" law:rolleyes:Coilte will determine it no doubt on that basis as they were the ones who instigated this whole requirement and it is/was a buddy.buddy deal, with no official dept approval.

Very good question,if the IDS courses were sold as the be and end all, were they sold under false pretence as well??Or is this the ambiguous "or equivalent" certification they are on about??

The HCAP was run without so much as a look see by anyone UNTIL they stuck their head above the parapet. By doing so they have brought up the questions above not to mention every other question that has appeared on this thread about data protection, certification, recognition, authority, etc, etc.

Yup, They drew fire upon themselves thru not thinking this thru properly and thinking it was all in the bag because they had some NGO and dept approval while running roughshod over procedure for a offical govt contract,for which there has never even been a tender.IOW shifty dealings.

They appear to be the architect of their own demise.

Hear the smallest violin in the world playing for them??:p

I don't believe Coilte have any right to refuse any sort of certification whether that is the HCAP, DSC1/2, or any of the European equivalents. They only ask for proof of compentency and any of those courses would show it

.

It is a given that anything European would be more of a qualification than HCAP.Even the US hunter safety course trumps it.Yet they categorically state that it is the HCAP or nowt.For a lease application,not for hunting in the woods with whomever.

As for others well if you have completed an acceptable course then you are free to apply for tender like everyone else.

Any one can once they meet whatever standards the Dept. set out. So it doesn't have to be a deer-specific crowd

.

True,but since there is no tender it's moot at this point .

I see a price of £160 which is €180. The current HCAP costs a minimum of €185.

Not much of a difference then..And is that for the entire course or just per module?Remember anyone like BASC ,etc are going to have to travel, bring materials, etc,so that's going to add to their cost of the course.

The WDAI? No range, but could do the MCQ and hire a range. However, as they are signatories on the proposals from the deer crowds i wouldn't like to see it.
HCAP. Not sure who this is, but i think you mean the Deer Alliance. Same as above.

It's now an umbrella group that calls itself DAI/HCAP as it is another alphabet soup of initials, a lot of old-timers still know it as WADI/HCAP:)

Possibly. They already are the only ones that have authorisation for the game meat handling course. They have no range but can hire one and combine both courses for a weekend seminar.

Wasnt there alot of grumbling at the time of the price of the game handling course?450 euros sticks in my mind...?Hence the low uptake.

ABSOLUTELY F**KING NOT

Do NOT be surprised if some wise arse [we know who] and pals decide to try and add this string to his bow.

Prices seem similar, but the course appears to be much better, more comprehensive, and they could do what is currently being done and hire a range for each shooting part of the test process.

It is better, seeing HCAP stole bits from it and from the German hunting course...But I cant see it happening too easily with possible Brexit complications in qualifications and STG/Euro in the future exchange rates.

The one key group, that someone mentioned earlier in the thread, that could run such a course are the ranges themselves.

They have the buildings/facilities to host the school part and the range to do the shooting part. So a course would only take a day and the range don't need to take a share/fee and so could reduce the price of the course significantly.

Any range with 100 yards could run their own course and once signed off on by the Minister's office when these standards are set out its all done in-house. If they saw fit they could also apply to the FSAI and get the meat handling "license" and run that too.

It would be probably the most logical and cheapest way of doing things no doubt.We don't lengthy months of instruction on the basics of shooting a deer safely.But of course once a govt dept gets involved logic and common sense goes out the window...

.

I remember lads complaining about having to pay for a deer license yet when the notion was floated with a price tag of between €10 - €30. Now they'll all have to pay hundreds in course fees that would pay for any hypothetical license for nearly a decade

The deer license and tags haven't gone away you know.
The IDMF still have that as one of their concrete proposals to fund them for their "research "[of staying in a cushy NGO number]Like the property tax, it will stay "reasonable" for a few seasons, I'd say all of one season, and you can add a zero to each of those tags then..Why do you think they had those specific questions on that form they sent out last year at the beginning of the license season? They wanted to see will we be allowed to be fleeced on this stupid idea, along with this nonsense of recording on an app where we shot our deer.

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Just my own opinion..As HCAP was set up to be a CYA exercise for a semi-state body who owns forestry.That's all it will ever be and revert back to being. IOW back to its original remit...And ASFAIC fine too,as its Coilte property and they can dictate whatever on their land.

Let me ask you this.

Who are Coilte to determine that the current HCAP and those that run it are qualified?
If a new course is produced and must abide by a regulated standard as set out by the Government then are all past courses/certificates valid as they were run without SOPs to abide by?

The HCAP was run without so much as a look see by anyone UNTIL they stuck their head above the parapet. By doing so they have brought up the questions above not to mention every other question that has appeared on this thread about data protection, certification, recognition, authority, etc, etc.

They appear to be the architect of their own demise.

So that leaves now two options. Anyone who wants to shoot outside Coilte IF this legislation ever comes to fruition or is even commenced.They sit another test like the rest of us and now can shoot on Coilte and private land.Which then raises the ugly head for HCAP of reciprocity of shooting on Coilte lands as well.If HCAP was going to be good enough outside Coilte, why shouldn't the new test be not good enough for a Coilte application?

I don't believe Coilte have any right to refuse any sort of certification whether that is the HCAP, DSC1/2, or any of the European equivalents. They only ask for proof of compentency and any of those courses would show it.

As for others well if you have completed an accepted course then you are free to apply for tender like everyone else.

Other questions and double-edged swords is this.Who is going to run it?

Any one can once they meet whatever standards the Dept. set out. So it doesn't have to be a deer specific crowd.

As this is a limited market here a are groups like UK BASC going to want to run it here as their prices already are ridiculous in the UK?

I see a price of £160 which is €180. The current HCAP costs a minimum of €185.

I see maybe 6 contestants
WADI/HCAP

The WDAI? No range, but could do the MCQ and hire a range. However as they are signatories on the proposals from the deer crowds i wouldn't like to see it.

HCAP. Not sure who this is, but i think you mean the Deer Alliance. Same as above.

NARGC

Possibly. They already are the only ones that have authorisation for the game meat handling course. They have no range, but can hire one and combine both coruses for a weekend seminar.

Sports Collation

ABSOLUTELY F**KING NOT.

It comprises of :

The NASRPC who have no ties to deer hunting
Fishing crowd - Self explanatory
Bullseye crowd - Again no ties to deer hunting and are an association
Silhouette crowd - Same as the others above
IFDA - One or two dealers the SC made up to bolster their ranks
ROAI - Again one range, possibly two that were split off from the main association to bloster SC numbers.

BASC

Prices seem similar, but the course appears to be much better, more comprehensive, and they could do what is currently being done and hire a range for each shooting part of the test process.

That crowd that offers many courses.Run from around Harbour House

Don't know who you are talking about here.

Unknowns

The one key group, that someone mentioned earlier in the thread, that could run such a course are the ranges themselves.

They have the buildings/facilities to host the school part and the range to do the shooting part. So a course would only take a day and the range don't need to take a share/fee and so could reduce the price of the course significantly.

Any range with 100 yards could run their own course and once signed off on by the Minister's office when these standards are set out its all done in house. If they saw fit they could also apply to the FSAI and get the meat handling "license" and run that too.

All with different proposed methods of extracting money out of us in some shape or form using the same tired methodology and formulae to teach us...

As i said above none of this was an issue until the Deer Alliance started making noise. Now a course of some kind will be coming and so its only a matter of how much it'll cost. You can thank the deer alliance for that.

I remember lads complaining about having to pay for a deer license yet when the notion was floated with a price tag of between €10 - €30. Now they'll all have to pay hundreds in course fees that would pay for any hypothetical license for nearly a decade.

Grizzly 45

Just my own opinion..As HCAP was set up to be a CYA exercise for a semi-state body who owns forestry.That's all it will ever be and revert back to being.IOW back to its original remit...And ASFAIC fine too,as its Coilte property and they can dictate whatever on their land.

So that leaves now two options.Anyone who wants to shoot outside Coilte IF this legislation ever comes to fruition or is even commenced.They sit another test like the rest of us and now can shoot on Coilte and private land.Which then raises the ugly head for HCAP of reciprocity of shooting on Coilte lands as well.If HCAP was going to be good enough outside Coilte, why shouldn't the new test be not good enough for a Coilte application?

Other questions and double-edged swords is this.Who is going to run it?As this is a limited market here a are groups like UK BASC going to want to run it here as their prices already are ridiculous in the UK? I see maybe 6 contestants
WADI/HCAP
NARGC
Sports Collation
BASC
That crowd that offers many courses.Run from around Harbour House
Unknowns

All with different proposed methods of extracting money out of us in some shape or form using the same tired methodology and formulae to teach us...

Cass

Three reasons for bumping this.

1) I have gotten some information relayed to me by another member that is as interested as the rest of us in finding out the details of this debacle, but am awaiting ok from the legal dept before allowing it to be published. Just so lads don't think this has been forgotten about.

2) I see 47 people have been listed as eligible for the MCQ part of the "course". The numbers break down like this:

13 - People who applied in 2016 or 2017 but never sat the course.
28 - People who applied in 2017 after the last date for testing.
6 - People who applied this year.

Other than the possible data protection issues, this brings me onto some observations on each category.

The 13 people that applied in 2016 and 2017 who never sat the MCQ have handed out €150 and now have to hand out another €50 to re-sit it.
The 28 people that are listed as applying in 2017, after the last testing, most likely done so after the false announcement about the course being mandatory. Wonder if they will get the option of a refund and cancellation now that it's been shown to be false.
The 6 people that applied for the course this year. Do they intend to shoot Coilte land or are they still working under the impression its' mandatory.

3) Not sure if we covered this but it's been playing on my mind recently. We have already been told (by the Minister's dept) this course is not mandatory and that no group are recognised as being the authorised (or sole) provider of training. They also said they have received applications from other interested parties in running a similar type of course.

We know now that a course off some kind will be coming. So my question is this. What happens to the previous;y issued licenses? If the current course is not recognised, registered, etc. but a forthcoming curse will be (regardless of who runs it) then where do the lads that have done the HCAP stand.

Don't forget there was a course before the HCAP and the lads that doen that were promised this would serve them forever, but fond that to not be the case when the newer, current HCAP, was introduced. So what is to say the old HCAP will be worth the paper its written on when any coming course is introduced?

ayagerard

1.2: The Hunter Competence Assessment Programme (HCAP) was latmched in April 2005
following four years of careful development which included the production of a Stalker
Training Manual.
1.3: Since HCAP's introduction in 2005, some 1200 licensed deer hunters have undertaken
the Programme on a voluntary basis and at the time of writing approximately 1000 candidates
have been HCAP-Certified.
1.4: At the time of writing, a revised Training Syllabus is under consideration by the Deer
Alliance Assessment Committee, with a view to introduction early in 2012. The revised
Training Syllabus will comprise a set number of hours training and preparation, to include a
new Food Safety Module under development in conjunction with the Food Safety Authority
of Ireland.
2: DEER ALLIANCE POLICY ON ASSESSMENT, CERTIFICATION AND THE
ISSUE OF DEER HUNTING LICEDNCES.
2.1: It is the policy of Deer Alliance HCAP that HCAP certification (or equivalent) should be
a prerequisite for all holders of or applicants for any licence to hunt wild deer in Ireland.
2.2: Deer Alliance HCAP has actively promoted this policy to the National Parks & Wildlife
Service and to successive Ministers since inception in 2005 and is committed to achieving
this objective within the Hfetime of the current Govemment. Deer Alliance HCAP is
optimistic that this objective will finally be achieved within this stated time frame.
3: DEER ALLIANCE HCAP PARTICIPATION IN FORMULATION OF DEER
MANAGEMENT POLICY
3.1: It follows from Point 2.1 and 2.2 above that as and when a requirement for mandatory
certification is adopted by NPWS, the framework within which a majority of deer hunters
operate will change radically. At the time of writing, approximately one in four licensed deer
hunters are HCAP-Certified, and have undergone some level of training and a measurable
level of assessment as to competency. A further substantial number of licensed hunters,
totalling 3000 or more, will need to become HCAP-Certified over a lead-in period expected
to take three to five years e.g. all new licence applicants to be certified before grant of
licence, and all existing licence holders to become HCAP-Certified with a three to five year
period (to be decided).

well folks i am kinda slow when it comes to finding my way around a computer or a web site like woody-wood -pecker he was in my eara the computers didn't come for 15 more years till i seen one in school , with the above statement i have a couple of questions by their own admission,
570,000 euro from 3000 proposed 100,000 collected +10,000 from repeats what proposals recommendations have the put forward with regard to all that money from a nonprofit enterprise, is it not time the other stake holders raised their heads and recognised this shower for what they are , or is this what has happened ????? no meeting since 16-6-2015 and a minister that flushed them down the loo for 2 more years and stated for new applicants only , hoping the smell would go away , no one but this lot is pushing this crap it serves no purpose on private ground and the the only purpose it then serves is money, (for who ???) what have they or any deer organisation in the history of the state done for deer , wildlife ,hunters, research , to date no one can say how many deer are on the ground are the numbers up or down with ,the harsh reality being they don't care, i would love to be at the next meeting of the idmf when ever that will be, never i hope as it is not fit for purpose , biased to vested private interests, with all this **** floating around i would wounder who would be paying for dinner and who could swallow it ( sorry lads this money is ours we're keeping it ,get your own)

Grizzly 45

Well spotted sir...I thought they were 3 meetings over three different years!:o:o
Ok, in reading thru these submissions from the top down 1,3[very important],12,16,19 are the important ones.

Paul Cullen's submission is well worthwhile reading as he is obviously writing as a stalker,not a beuracrat,or organisation or white coat. He hit the nail squarely, stating that the "deer societies" have been around for 30 plus years and basically done SFA in that time and that the non Coilte/HCAP hunter has no representation at these conferences is an extremely valid point.
So the summation I can get so far from a once over lightly reading of this sofar is....
2012 hysterical panic about massive deer numbers, Dept and NPWS puts out draft proposals with lots of beuracy and regulatory proposals that verge on the point of lunacy and comedy.With of course the stalkers paying for everything, as usual
[Thank fuk for the recession at the time] Tags at 100 euros for stags and having to join local Deer management Units are some of the crackpot ideas.
[2012] a QUARTER of deerstalkers are in Coilte forests according to our friends of;
Irish Deer Society
Wild Deer Association of Ireland
Wicklow Deer Management & Conservation Group
Countryside Alliance Ireland
Deer Alliance HCAP Joint report
Although CAI issue their own as well yaying for HCAP too.
In fairness to the collective them; they do tell the Govt where to get off on alot of issues and money-spinning ideas.

So a lot of paperwork, talk and noise ensues and then.........Crickets[to the public eye]........Until 21017 annual deer license renewals....

To sum it up and compare it to the target shooting scene.It seems there are some agendas going on here in our shooting and farming organisations..both on the hunting scene and the Govt dept... IOW Situation Normal For Ireland ..All Fuked up![SNFIAFU]

ayagerard

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Posted back on this thread the meetings from 2014 to 15.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/forestservicegeneralinformation/deermanagement/irishdeermanagementforum/
Oh deer hunters were represented alright, but by people with no remit from the majority of Non-Coilte stalkers.As for what the NARGC were doing is unknown as Mr Doris was absent in 2015. So NARGC is somewhat complicit in this mess too.

Found this in their policy document 2nd draft on the same website as above...Intresting ....

5.4 Policy must ensure that appropriate training for hunters must satisfy the needs of
recreational hunting, and should also be of sufficient standard to be capable of satisfying
the needs of professional operators. Training and assessment must be independent, and
subject to accredited certification. Those providing the training must be suitably
qualified and accredited to do so.

So now it can be ligitametly asked here..Who has trained the trainers of HCAP?Also Devil is in the details...
"Policy must ensure that appropriate training for hunters must satisfy the needs of recreational hunting" So what do we as recreational hunters" Need" in training?? Seriously...What do you folks think we need in training?? Or better put what would be the bare minimum you would accept to be classified as a stalker here?

so the 3 meetings were held on the following dates march 31, may 5, june 16 , 2015 correct yes/ no , and these were the only meetings held by this group the idmf , yes /no, well mr norris shows as been in attendance in all 3 meetings , it was suggested that he was missing absent https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/forestservicegeneralinformation/deermanagement/deermanagepolicyvision2nddraft/ these are the submisions put forward , if any one has a day to spend in doors

Grizzly 45

ayagerard wrote: »

is there any way to find out who was sitting around the table when these proposals were voted on, to be put forward, which members were present , who voted ( yea ) and who voted (na ) what percentage /17 was it unanimous , or was it 3 in attendance motion carried unanimously ,what other suggestions or recommendations have they put forward for the betterment of the wild deer , ?????????????, this latest stunt only highlights to what end they will go for money , the cant be still in denial they have thought about this ,this shows intent ,:o

Posted back on this thread the meetings from 2014 to 15.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/forestservice/forestservicegeneralinformation/deermanagement/irishdeermanagementforum/
Oh deer hunters were represented alright, but by people with no remit from the majority of Non-Coilte stalkers.As for what the NARGC were doing is unknown as Mr Doris was absent in 2015. So NARGC is somewhat complicit in this mess too.

Found this in their policy document 2nd draft on the same website as above...Intresting ....

5.4 Policy must ensure that appropriate training for hunters must satisfy the needs of
recreational hunting, and should also be of sufficient standard to be capable of satisfying
the needs of professional operators. Training and assessment must be independent, and
subject to accredited certification. Those providing the training must be suitably
qualified and accredited to do so.

So now it can be ligitametly asked here..Who has trained the trainers of HCAP?Also Devil is in the details...
"Policy must ensure that appropriate training for hunters must satisfy the needs of recreational hunting" So what do we as recreational hunters" Need" in training?? Seriously...What do you folks think we need in training?? Or better put what would be the bare minimum you would accept to be classified as a stalker here?

Damoeire33

https://www.facebook.com/groups/197338737265837/permalink/557801864552854/?comment_id=557962297870144&reply_comment_id=558028621196845&notif_id=1513256420763107&notif_t=group_comment

Their still not giving up on this money making racket

ayagerard

Cass wrote: »

Make no mistake with a new Minister the deer forum will make another run at this. A course will most likely become necessary at some point but i sure as chips don't want to see it in the hands of a private group that has made these dealings in secret along with other so called deer groups to privatize a sport they have and should never have any control over.

a crowd of chancers, the scraping of a burnt pot would be better ,preaching what is best for the wild deer when in practice all the are worried about is their own gain in monetary value ,money
the irish deer forum was set up to make (suggestions and recommendations ),
beyond that they have no power, but these guys are judge jury & executioners ,for their self gain , any minister with any credibility or self respect would distance her self from these vultures
time and time again they have highlighted what their interests are ,with no or little money now to be made from this they would drowund a nation to keep them selves a float :mad:
is there any way to find out who was sitting around the table when these proposals were voted on, to be put forward, which members were present , who voted ( yea ) and who voted (na ) what percentage /17 was it unanimous , or was it 3 in attendance motion carried unanimously ,what other suggestions or recommendations have they put forward for the betterment of the wild deer , ?????????????, this latest stunt only highlights to what end they will go for money , the cant be still in denial they have thought about this ,this shows intent ,:o

Grizzly 45

Of course, they will make another run at this...This is why I keep saying We ourselves need to be in the running and sitting at the ministerial table giving a counterproposal or course.But seeing that there was no original govt tender for this or what was requirements for the course content with govt approval.It is kind of hard to put together anything.

From a reply, I got to the or other " and EU qualifications
not being acceptable if you live in Ireland

[QUOTE, However, under
current provisions hunters permanently resident in Ireland are required to
hold HCAP or equivalent as it can easily be seen that the hunting
framework, including legislation affecting wildlife and firearms ownership
and usage, differs substantially from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. This
point hardly needs expansion at this time.[/QUOTE]

IOW No matter how good your qualification is, so much that you could be teaching us, we insist on you doing our course.

Conspiracy theory time
I wonder is their trump card the threat of withdrawing all HCAP registerd stalkers from Coilte and providing a paying and free culling service if they don't get their way with this?

Cass

Make no mistake with a new Minister the deer forum will make another run at this. A course will most likely become necessary at some point but i sure as chips don't want to see it in the hands of a private group that has made these dealings in secret along with other so called deer groups to privatize a sport they have and should never have any control over.

Cass

They were not impressed that a few others wrote to them using my format above. It was mentioned in their reply that they were replying to me and others at the same time as the wording of our e-mails were idnetical for, in their own words, "Whatever reason".

The reason is simple, i want as many people as possible to know what you are doing and if that means sending the same query then so be it.

I was once again told the law, section 28 of the 1976 act, demands competence be shown. However this wrong, or at least the way they interpret it. Section 28 makes no such demands, but section 37 of the 2000 amendment act, which amends section 28 does so they might have a point but i won't let them away with anything however pedantic it may seem.

Section 37 of the 2000 act says:

An Applicant may, before the granting of any such licence or the granting or renewal of any such certificate, be required to supply satisfactory evidence that the applicant is a competent person to hold such a licence.

(b) The evidence required under paragraph (a) of this subsection shall include the ability to identify certain species of fauna and to have a satisfactory knowledge of the relevant provisions of the Wildlife Acts, 1976 and 2000, and of any instruments made under those Acts.

So first off the section says "may" be required not is required.

Secondly when applying for a firearm which i deem a far more serious thing than a deer license you can show competence to An Gardaí via four methods:

Training license
Previous firearm experience
Written support from current firearm holders
Competency course

So why is the hcap the supposed only way to show competence? Surely i could do so with:

Being a currently licensed deer stalker for however many years
Previous stalking experience (from years ago, but not recent)
Written letters of support from currently licensed deer hunters having attended stalks with them for a few years before going "solo".
Stalking experience and qualification from another country which includes a superior "hcap" style testing having been completed.

The law still does not say i must have a course done and the Deer Alliance's insistence that no law needs changed or written to enact such a course is wrong.

If there is no law requiring me to have a mandatory course done then i cannot be refused a license for not having done such a course.
If caught out deer stalking without a course done there would be no punishment under any law/act.
It would essentially be set of best practice guides rather than a legal requirement.

So to make it an offence the primary legislation needs to be amended which cannot be done with an SI (secondary legislation).

Cass

I received a reply to my e-mail which says they "inadvertantly" put up that information. Having checked the website this morning that section was removed, but is now replaced with an almost similar section.

In it they claim almost the exact same thing but instead of saying you must have the hcap they now say a hcap will be required but "not necessarily" on january 1st.

This is essentially the same hyperbole. Unless they have met with, and secretly agreed with the new Minister on a plan to enact such a course they cannot say with any certainty that a course will be due shortly into the new year

6034073

Cass

Sent to the Minister's office:

Dear Sir/Madam.

Could you please clarify the current status/validity of the statement made by Minister Humphries on the 21st November 2017 regarding the implementation of a training course for anyone wishing to gain a license for deer hunting by 2020.

https://www.npws.ie/news/statement-minister-certification-licensed-deer-hunters

Does this position still hold true?

My reason for seeking clarification is because the Deer Alliance who run the current HCAP course are posting, as recently as December 11th 2017, on their website that anyone seeking a deer hunting license (DHL) from January 1st 2018 onwards MUST have a HCAP certification even if they do not intend to shoot on Coilte lands.

This assertion will undoubtedly lead people to believe their course is a requirement for new entrants to the sport and force them [the new applicants]
to take a course they believe to be mandatory when in fact it is NOT. They [the deer alliance] not only seen the Minister's statement form November 21st 2017, but also replied to it on their website, so there is no doubt they knew the current standing.

http://deeralliance.ie/blog/2017/11/

I have contacted the Deer Alliance asking for them to clarify their statement, correct the contents of the statement, or if necessary remove it entirely. While awaiting a reply, if one is forthcoming, i thought it prudent to also confirm that the previous position of the Minister [Humphries] as linked to above still holds true.

I very much look forward to your reply.

Thanking you in advance.

Feel free to copy and send it yourself or something similar.

Cass

Sent to the Deer Alliance:

To whom it may concern.

Can you please explain why you are STILL stating that the HCAP is mandatory for all persons, and not just those intending on using Coilte lands, as and from January 1st 2018 when the Minister made it perfectly clear in her statement on November 21st 2017 (link below) that no such mandatory course is required?

https://www.npws.ie/news/statement-minister-certification-licensed-deer-hunters

She [the Minister] made it perfectly clear that a course may/will be introduced by no later than 2020 however no current course is mandatory in January or anytime in the near future, and that includes the HCAP.

To continue to publish articles and make statements to the contrary is wrong and misleading people into believing that if they don’t take the HCAP they will not be able to gain a license from January 2018 on.

I have contacted the Minister’s office, accompanied by a screenshot and link to the notice on your website, asking her office to clarify if her statement on November 21st still holds true and if so why you [the Deer Alliance] are continuing to spread word to the contrary.

I very much look forward to your reply.

ayagerard

ezra_ wrote: »

Well if wishes were horses... Luckily for the rest of us, what they say carries as much weight as my left foot.

I also like how they seem to have published the names of people who own deer calibre rifles on their blog...

i wouldn't be to happy with that a few names on there that wouldn't be to hard to track down but i suppose they cant afford to be sending out texts or posting letters, at least i wont be having nightmares about seeing my name on there ,
i also hope these guys doing their ( exam ) know they only need this on coillte leases

Cass

ezra_ wrote: »

Well if wishes were horses... Luckily for the rest of us, what they say carries as much weight as my left foot.

Not as many as you think.

In the last week i've found three people and two groups/clubs posting about the "mandatory" course in January. The word has not spread far enough.

I also like how they seem to have published the names of people who own deer calibre rifles on their blog...

Always found that odd. Goes back to the Data protection issue. They do it every year before each test and will publish a new list for those doing the range test. So now you know people and where they'll be with firearms on a set date.

ayagerard

DA/HCAP Blog

those lovely people that were counting all our money, i hope they can afford some gravy to go with the turkey as it looks kinda of dry from where i am standing , no man as blind as the man that dont want to see springs to mind , but they acknowledged the statement made by minister humph fries at the time so what are they playing at now with it kicked down the road for 2 years at least are they that dishonest :mad:

ezra_

RossiFan08 wrote: »

The Deer Alliance, new post on their blog stating the above.

http://deeralliance.ie/blog/

Second paragraph

Well if wishes were horses... Luckily for the rest of us, what they say carries as much weight as my left foot.

I also like how they seem to have published the names of people who own deer calibre rifles on their blog...

RossiFan08

ezra_ wrote: »

Who is they in this case?

The Deer Alliance, new post on their blog stating the above.

http://deeralliance.ie/blog/

Second paragraph

ezra_

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

They are STILL trying it on!:mad: Dec11th 2017 post. Got some thick necks is all I can say.

HCAP Certification is required for all Coillte Licensees and all Coillte Nominated Stalkers and from 1st January 2018 HCAP certification will be required for all NEW first-time Deer Hunting Licence (DHL) applicants regardless of whether they are hunting on Coillte forest property or on private land. Existing DHL holders hunting on private land will have a grace period of five years from 1st January 2018 to obtain HCAP Certification.

What do they not understand in this"Your remit is Coilte forests.Not the entire countryside."

Who is they in this case?

Grizzly 45

They are STILL trying it on!:mad: Dec11th 2017 post. Got some thick necks is all I can say.

HCAP Certification is required for all Coillte Licensees and all Coillte Nominated Stalkers and from 1st January 2018 HCAP certification will be required for all NEW first-time Deer Hunting Licence (DHL) applicants regardless of whether they are hunting on Coillte forest property or on private land. Existing DHL holders hunting on private land will have a grace period of five years from 1st January 2018 to obtain HCAP Certification.

What do they not understand in this"Your remit is Coilte forests.Not the entire countryside."

Cass

ezra_ wrote: »

Orders from on-high will be to not rock the boat.

Nope.

We don't register on their radar most days and barely a blip others. Just a case of a previous Minister overextending her authority. Like when Fitzgerald said she could ban guns without a compensation system in place. Didn't understand the basics between ownership and licensing.

So Ministers are not infallible.

gunny123 wrote: »

I live in madigans constituency. She has a reputation that makes margaret thatcher seem like a drippy leftie, which is hardly surprising seeing as veruca appointed her.

The ball has been set rolling on a general election. We'll most likely see one by March even with Fitzgerald doing her "placating" resignation.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So who is going to go do the talking for us ?After all these organisations we have just shot down are supposedly the lot representing us?

Everyone.

The Wild Deer Association of Ireland, Deer Alliance, Irish Deer Society, Wicklow Deer Society, Coilte and NPWS were the ones that invented this and tried to push this mandatory HCAP on us.

So while we might not know who can represent us yet, we should be mindful of who exactly it was that tried to shaft us.

Birdnuts wrote: »

I wonder what the new Ministers approach to all this will be?? - not many deer in D4!!;)

She doesn't need to know much or anything as long as she is more willing to hold open discussions and not just listen the bias of the invested groups. Self appointed groups at that. IOW a few lads that got together and set up a group.

Birdnuts

I wonder what the new Ministers approach to all this will be?? - not many deer in D4!!;)

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

http://nargc.ie/press-release-1st-december-2017/

And long may it continue that way.