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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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deezell

Ush1 wrote: »

That would only work with wired stats though correct?

Yes to a point. If the legacy system is wired it's very easy. If the stat(s) is wireless to it's receiver which is then wired to the controller, you either wire back to this point or use the smart stat's own wireless receiver, extension kit for tado, relay box for Netamo, heatlink for Nest (which is the only way Nest can connect) . If the legacy system is wireless from the stat straight into the controller, like some EPH systems, then the controller and stats are redundant and you just wire the different link boxes of the smart stats to their respective zone valves or straight to the boiler.

sharkman

Is there any difference between the Ikea Bridge and the Philips ?

bren2001

sharkman wrote: »

Is there any difference between the Ikea Bridge and the Philips ?

I assume you're asking about lights and not heating...

Ikea bridge controls ikea lights and accessories.
Philips bridge controls philips light and accessories. Ikea bulbs can be linked but that means you cannot use ikea accessories or the ikea bridge.

Philips has been out a good while longer so has a lot more functionality but that comes at a price.

deezell

sharkman wrote: »

Is there any difference between the Ikea Bridge and the Philips ?

This thread is full of internet lighting chat and deals.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057677323&page=71

sharkman

bren2001 wrote: »

I assume you're asking about lights and not heating...

Ikea bridge controls ikea lights and accessories.
Philips bridge controls philips light and accessories. Ikea bulbs can be linked but that means you cannot use ikea accessories or the ikea bridge.

Philips has been out a good while longer so has a lot more functionality but that comes at a price.

Sorry , Yes I should have been more specific . I should have asked if the Philips bridge gives you more than the Ikea . Or are they simply a tool to connect to lights/heat ect .

bren2001

sharkman wrote: »

Sorry , Yes I should have been more specific . I should have asked if the Philips bridge gives you more than the Ikea . Or are they simply a tool to connect to lights/heat ect .

Both bridges only connect to lights. If you want something to control both, Hive might be worth a look. They have their own lights and control heating but I've no experience with it.

viperlogic

Looking for some guidance, have a new build, that has 3 zones (hot water, downstairs, upstairs) and is controlled by a EPH R37-HW. The boiler is not a combi. There are 15 rads in the house, all have “dumb” TRV's. While the house holds the heat v well as a new build, I would like some granular control of living room and 3 bedrooms in the eve and night time without having to heat the rest of the house as its quite open plan. Currently there are two stats in the house, one in the hall and one in the main bedroom.

What is the best way of going about this? Putting smart motorised TRV’s on the living room and 3 bedroom rads, set the manual TRV’s to a comfortable setting e.g. 2.5 and leave the boiler to always on for the upstairs and downstairs zones for eve and night and so the smart TRV’s with a controller set the heating accordingly? Or am i over complicating it!

If I go with evohome, do I need 2x BDR91’s wireless relays, one for each zone or ?

Pique

Do you have the wireless (RF) stats with the EPH setup for upstairs and downstairs? I do and just set the temp required using the EPH app. You need the EPH gateway which allows communication between the controller and the internet so that you can control the system using your phone. It would work if you have the stat in one bedroom and are happy to have all bedrooms the same temp.
Otherwise you could look at the Netatmo Smart TRVs and just replace the existing ones with those and forget about it. I think the starter pack comes with 2 so you could leave the EPH stat in one bedroom, the Netatmo TRVs in the other 2 bedrooms and you're set. yes it's 2 apps on your phone and EPH isn't supported by Alexa or whatever but it could be a nice cheap setup for your current situation.

viperlogic

Pique wrote: »

Do you have the wireless (RF) stats with the EPH setup for upstairs and downstairs?

Unfortunately no, its the mechanical ones, EPH-CM2

I do and just set the temp required using the EPH app. You need the EPH gateway which allows communication between the controller and the internet so that you can control the system using your phone. It would work if you have the stat in one bedroom and are happy to have all bedrooms the same temp.
Otherwise you could look at the Netatmo Smart TRVs and just replace the existing ones with those and forget about it. I think the starter pack comes with 2 so you could leave the EPH stat in one bedroom, the Netatmo TRVs in the other 2 bedrooms and you're set. yes it's 2 apps on your phone and EPH isn't supported by Alexa or whatever but it could be a nice cheap setup for your current situation.

If I go down the smart TRV route, is it a case of letting the boiler on for the upstairs and downstairs zones, and in the case where all the TRV's are closed as temp is reached, does the boiler turn off as a certain water temperate is reached by the boiler and is not being dissipated by the rads or does it actually need a thermostat to flip the relay to off?

deezell

viperlogic wrote: »

Unfortunately no, its the mechanical ones, EPH-CM2

If I go down the smart TRV route, is it a case of letting the boiler on for the upstairs and downstairs zones, and in the case where all the TRV's are closed as temp is reached, does the boiler turn off as a certain water temperate is reached by the boiler and is not being dissipated by the rads or does it actually need a thermostat to flip the relay to off?

That's how its done with a Smart TRV solution. set the old timer on permanent, Each TRV closes as temperature is reached, the master control device (Evohome, Tado stat), will call the boiler for any TRV that is open. When they are all closed it will cut the boiler ( unless the HW circuit or the Tado stat/Evohome controller stat is calling for heat).
It's probably not that efficient to have no call for heat to the boiler and have the boiler just cycling on off using its own stat, but this is often the case when the TRVs are partially closed and the boiler will idle having reached its set internal temperature. The important difference is that there is still a circuit to the rads because the zone valves are open. Having the boiler idling with all three zone valves closed is not a good idea.
As you currently have two stats calling 2 zones, the Smart stat relay will need to replace both of these, so when it's live it opens both motorised zone valves. the call for the boiler comes from the actuators of the valves, you probably have three if you have a HW zone also. These can be left wired to the boiler, you will just need to interject the smart relay box in place of one the EPH stats, and wire the return switched live back to both valve actuators. Currently each motorised valve is fed from its own stat.

viperlogic

deezell wrote: »

That's how its done with a Smart TRV solution. set the old timer on permanent, Each TRV closes as temperature is reached, the master control device (Evohome, Tado stat), will call the boiler for any TRV that is open. When they are all closed it will cut the boiler ( unless the HW circuit or the Tado stat/Evohome controller stat is calling for heat).
It's probably not that efficient to have no call for heat to the boiler and have the boiler just cycling on off using its own stat, but this is often the case when the TRVs are partially closed and the boiler will idle having reached its set internal temperature. The important difference is that there is still a circuit to the rads because the zone valves are open. Having the boiler idling with all three zone valves closed is not a good idea.
As you currently have two stats calling 2 zones, the Smart stat relay will need to replace both of these, so when it's live it opens both motorised zone valves. the call for the boiler comes from the actuators of the valves, you probably have three if you have a HW zone also. These can be left wired to the boiler, you will just need to interject the smart relay box in place of one the EPH stats, and wire the return switched live back to both valve actuators. Currently each motorised valve is fed from its own stat.

Thanks deezell, its beginning to make sense.

If I don't want to go down the route of changing the wiring at the boiler end (eg one stat driving both zone valves) I take it smart stats can be paired to just some smart TRV's eg downstairs TRV's paired to downstairs stat and likewise upstairs?

I see evohome and Tado mentioned, is Netatmo an option also, eg people have a good experience with them?

BoardsMember

Anyone care to recommend smart TRVs? Thinking of going the NEST route, and want to add some room specific turn on/off rads control. Have a Google Home, and Hue lights, other than that its a pretty dumb home!

viperlogic

Am I missing something here…looking at Tado site, the “Smart Thermostat starter kit v3” is €249 yet the Thermostat on its own is €129, meaning the bridge is €120? The “Smart Radiator Thermostat - Starter Kit” is €199 yet 2x Smart Radiator Thermostats are 2x €79 for a total of €158, meaning bridge is €41.

deezell

viperlogic wrote: »

Thanks deezell, its beginning to make sense.

If I don't want to go down the route of changing the wiring at the boiler end (eg one stat driving both zone valves) I take it smart stats can be paired to just some smart TRV's eg downstairs TRV's paired to downstairs stat and likewise upstairs?

I see evohome and Tado mentioned, is Netatmo an option also, eg people have a good experience with them?

Simplest solution that avoids wiring in and around the zone valves is to mount smart stats which have switched live contacts in place of the old stats. you will need two, though. These then act as the trigger for the boiler when you put TRVs in the SAME zone. Tado stat can be triggered by its own thermostat or by a linked TRV. The TRV can act as the stat for it's room, calling the boiler for the zone as a whole. The area with the stat will obviously call the boiler for the radiator in that area, this rad can have a TRV also, but can use the main stat as the measuring device. This means the rad where the stat is located can be satisfied and closed while the stat which controls it's TRV will still act to call the boiler for other TRVs in that zone, so the area doesn't get overheated. You can also mix standard TRVs which act as upper limits for rooms, but not in the area with the main stat, as it might never be satisfied if its rad is turned off before it reaches target.

NO TRV - Room will heat in accordance to the main stats set temperature
Normal TRV - As above but the room will have an upper limit on Temperature
Smart TRV - As above but may also be able to call the boiler to initiate heating, Plus remote operation of time/temperature schedule.

Tado, Netamo, Honeywell Lyric and a few others can be wired as direct replacement, and I think the Netamo behaves the same as the Tado regarding the addition of smart TRVs. I don't think the honeywell Lyric smart stat can respond to TRVs, I think they only work as part of the Evohome controller/stat, which can be wall mounted but requires a wireless relay back at the valves to fire the boiler. Nest can't talk to TRVs, and requires its relay box to be situated back at the valves/boiler. Again if you dont tie the zones together you will need two main stats. The Evohome can operate two relays tied at installation, which are then wired in place of the wall stats( back at valves) creating a single zone, but it's no different than than joining the stat live returns to a single relay as I suggested in the previous post.

deezell

viperlogic wrote: »

Am I missing something here…looking at Tado site, the “Smart Thermostat starter kit v3” is €249 yet the Thermostat on its own is €129, meaning the bridge is €80? The “Smart Radiator Thermostat - Starter Kit” is €199 yet 2x Smart Radiator Thermostats are 2x €79 for a total of €158, meaning bridge is €41.

So stat kit with 2 TRVs is €407
Stat only with TRV kit is €328, a saving of €79 or an extra TRV

viperlogic

Netatmo and Tado coming in around the same price for what I want (Stats and TRV's). Any feedback on to choose one over the other? I will be using Alexa with it.

viperlogic wrote: »

Netatmo and Tado coming in around the same price for what I want (Stats and TRV's). Any feedback on to choose one over the other? I will be using Alexa with it.

I've Netatmo and I'm very happy about it, but given the above, I think I'd go with Tado for the following reasons:

- It has the extra option/flexibility of supporting a hot water zone. You might not be use it at the moment, but might be needed in future.

- Netatmo's physical thermostat has a weakness with it's physical button, I think the Tado Thermostat physical design is probably better and maybe more reliable.

judeboy101

Just installed 3 netatmo trv's and find them very easy to use.

enfant terrible

judeboy101 wrote: »

Just installed 3 netatmo trv's and find them very easy to use.

Can you now just set the temperature you want it that room and the trv will keep the room at that temperature?

viperlogic

Anyone using Tado in a house with ducon ceiling/floors? I ask as I see its using RF to communicate and wondering if have anyone has connectivity issues as wifi is very poor and hence have powerline fed wifi access points throughout the house.

deezell

viperlogic wrote: »

Anyone using Tado in a house with ducon ceiling/floors? I ask as I see its using RF to communicate and wondering if have anyone has connectivity issues as wifi is very poor and hence have powerline fed wifi access points throughout the house.

Mine works well though 150mm solid concrete internal walls if thats any help. The carrier protocol and radio frequency used to connect stats/ trvs to the bridge is very different to Wi-Fi, it's more resilient, and believe it or not Tado support can push an rf power level setting increase to you stats if you experience dropout. Probably at the expense of shorter battery life.

Stoner

Lightwaverf can respond to a TRV too. At least they use to, then they stopped it, then added it again. Not sure now

I had it that any stat could call the boiler.

I've 2 smart TRVs upstairs and 5 down stairs. I skipped toilets ( they don't suit the rads) I've none in my bedroom or the dining room either.

I've none in the dining room just a regular TRV as it's open plan with a living room and I've a smart one (large) on that rad in the dining room

All these units regardless of who makes them are loud imo. I've removed all the gen 1 Smart TRVs due to loudness.

My house is all the one cct. I don't mind the bathrooms always having heat when the boiler is on as it's not the worst place to keep warm and the damp away.

I bought good quality rechargeable batteries for my TRVs.

TBH on my set up I had a lightwaverf main stat and all the 7 Smart TRVs could call in a rad.

That was 8 schedules thankfully they've added soft zones now. But 8 items capable of calling the boiler was a nightmare for me anyway, it was too much control.

So when lightwaverf disabled it I was almost happy. They change in response to forum requests

I broke the lightwave stat. I've a netamo that I've never used, but I'm testing a SONOFF ATM it's working fine

I'm thinking of getting the Nest from electric Ireland now, unless there's a catch.

The stats I have on the rads are more or less independently controlling the rads in the rooms.

Rather than relying on something to guess my movements I've applied some basic logic to rooms I do and don't use much.

Spare bedrooms, office etc are all dialed down, door closed,. If someone needs them there's a boost button on the rad or I'll dial it up.

If the boiler turns in I'll always have a load, hot water etc but it's not the end of the world we use the bath for the kids anyway.

So I might try the nest just for the sake if it, but with about 90 percent of my rad load on smart TRVs with their own schedules something as simple as a SONOFF on my basic boiler set up , using the internal stat is working for me.

I'll add a smart TRV to the attic next.

judeboy101

enfant terrible wrote: »

Can you now just set the temperature you want it that room and the trv will keep the room at that temperature?

Yes, for example as I speak now, I'm downstairs heating just came on. Up stairs ive set heating on rads for ten mins just to take edge of cold but then they stop so no heating upstairs as why bother heating upstairs when everyone downstairs. At night ive heating set to 3 diff temps depending on preferences of kids (think goldilocks zone)

BoardsMember

Stoner wrote: »

Lightwaverf can respond to a TRV too. At least they use to, then they stopped it, then added it again. Not sure now

I had it that any stat could call the boiler.

I've 2 smart TRVs upstairs and 5 down stairs. I skipped toilets ( they don't suit the rads) I've none in my bedroom or the dining room either.

I've none in the dining room just a regular TRV as it's open plan with a living room and I've a smart one (large) on that rad in the dining room

All these units regardless of who makes them are loud imo. I've removed all the gen 1 Smart TRVs due to loudness.

My house is all the one cct. I don't mind the bathrooms always having heat when the boiler is on as it's not the worst place to keep warm and the damp away.

I bought good quality rechargeable batteries for my TRVs.

TBH on my set up I had a lightwaverf main stat and all the 7 Smart TRVs could call in a rad.

That was 8 schedules thankfully they've added soft zones now. But 8 items capable of calling the boiler was a nightmare for me anyway, it was too much control.

So when lightwaverf disabled it I was almost happy. They change in response to forum requests

I broke the lightwave stat. I've a netamo that I've never used, but I'm testing a SONOFF ATM it's working fine

I'm thinking of getting the Nest from electric Ireland now, unless there's a catch.

The stats I have on the rads are more or less independently controlling the rads in the rooms.

Rather than relying on something to guess my movements I've applied some basic logic to rooms I do and don't use much.

Spare bedrooms, office etc are all dialed down, door closed,. If someone needs them there's a boost button on the rad or I'll dial it up.

If the boiler turns in I'll always have a load, hot water etc but it's not the end of the world we use the bath for the kids anyway.

So I might try the nest just for the sake if it, but with about 90 percent of my rad load on smart TRVs with their own schedules something as simple as a SONOFF on my basic boiler set up , using the internal stat is working for me.

I'll add a smart TRV to the attic next.

Can you let me know what smart trv's you're using, or would recommend?

How would they work in conjunction with the Nest, or why would you need a Nest when all rads have smart trvs? I'm thinking of going this route, and the way I would see it as working is that Nest determines if the boiler is on or not, and the smart trvs running on a schedule determine if they are open or not. Does this make sense as a way to approach it?

Stoner

I use lightwaverf units. I've full two way communication with them.

Unlike some iot kit I don't have different ones in my house set up. Many recommended what they have without acknowledging the competitions offering. So I'm going to avoid that

I can tell you my TRVs work. I had to change some of the connections on my rads not all of them just some.

The plastic kits these units give you to add to your rads to make their TRVs fit seem to be universally problematic. So a direct fit is best. This is a potential cost for most people to consider

The units I have are working independently and the app can group them into zones.

I find this works for me, I can then use whatever stat I want.

However if you want any TRV to call the boiler you'll need to match your stat with the TRVs.

This feature was not that important for me.

However it would be handy for things like the baby's room not dropping below 17 degrees at night, I've a rad in the Attic too, it would be useful to have it call in the boiler if it froze there.

But those room are well insulated in my house and it hasn't been an issue.

But that's my house not everyone's

I'd have to replace the lightwaverf stat to have a particular TRV call the boiler in.

Stoner

BoardsMember wrote:

Nest determines if the boiler is on or not, and the smart trvs running on a schedule determine if they are open or not. Does this make sense as a way to approach it?

That is my set up. Substitute the next in your text for

Lightwaverf stat
Netamo stat
SONOFF switch

I've used them all as you described

deezell

Nest can't talk to smart TRVs. Smart TRVs that can't fire the boiler can only control the temperature down, unless the hot water is circulating all the time. This would be normal enough in a guesthouse, school etc. In the Home we like to control the boiler absolutely. If the Nest is used it fires the boiler based on its location (i.e. Living room), then the TRVs will get their chance to bring their rooms up to temperature while the living room is heating. This is probably only marginally better than standard TRVs, in that with smart TRVs you can schedule different temperatures for TRVs to turn down to at different times, e.g bedrooms during the day. Every little addition helps, Nest followed by TRVs is an improvement on Nest alone, and you can always add the same brand stat or relay as the TRVs to get them to call the boiler. Tado TRVs would need a Tado stat somewhere and the extra wiring.With Tado it's possible to add TRVs to a zone and appoint one TRV as the measuring device for that zone. If you have four bedrooms with maybe 6-7 radiators because of ensuites etc. you really don't need to be creating 6-7 schedules ( as mentioned by Stoner above), so this method allows you to create a single bedroom Schedule which hopefully will heat all rooms evenly. I'm not sure if the non assigned TRVS will follow that schedule and depend on the assigned TRV to call the boiler, or whither they will control the temperature locally but depend on the assigned TRV to call the boiler. According to Tado support, if a TRV is attached to the main stat zone (TRV rad is in the same room as the stat), the wall stat opens and closes the TRV, not its own built in sensor.

Irish Gunner

judeboy101 wrote: »

Just installed 3 netatmo trv's and find them very easy to use.

Have 3 myself how are you finding them?

I have the thermostat downstairs and big rad and small rad downstairs and then one in main bedroom and one in Juniors. The open window option not working and I cannot turn the valve completely off. However good for adjusting the heat in each room. Also each valve has option of turning on the boiler so for the rads with no TRV heat up also so looking to buy more.

They do make noise but not loud as hear them when I am in bed turning on

deezell

Stoner wrote: »

........All these units regardless of who makes them are loud imo. I've removed all the gen 1 Smart TRVs due to loudness..........

I agree. My master bedroom smart TRV lasted exactly one night. On the half hour almost exactly it was whirring on and off as it called for a heat topup. SHMBO hopped out and wrenched it off. End of.

viperlogic

Stoner wrote: »

All these units regardless of who makes them are loud imo. I've removed all the gen 1 Smart TRVs due to loudness.

are they current tado TRV's deemed gen1?