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Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Grizzly 45

Picked this up on an FB page from a local group of Munster deer hunters.So treat this as TOTALLY UNCONFIRMED..

As we know the newbies applying for a deer license for Jan 2018 season, will be required to do the HCAP or similar to be considered for a deer hunting license, and the rest of us will apparently have to do the HCAP within a fixed date within the next five years or so.This will be decided apparently by some sort of lottery system applied by NPWS. Don't do the HCAP within a certain timeframe, no deer hunting license for you lad/lady!

Considering this is coming from a state body that has been caught out on makey up law on things like; No Semi-autos are legal for deer hunting, You need 100 acres plus for a license, and .223 is perfectly legal for deer hunting here... You gotta ask is this legit or even plausible.The lad who posted this "claims" to have written an email to the dept and was informed that it's the ministers intent and will to follow this thru on a recommendation of the deer interest groups.:(: mad:

So , has anyone had this blip on their radar ?Or anything of the like? Can we get confirmation or denial of hostile intent?Going by my experience this year, I'd say the hostile intent is very possible, if not plausible.And if so, can we mount a campagin against this before January?

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Grizzly 45

http://nargc.ie/press-release-1st-december-2017/

Grizzly 45

Good.Then at least we know what we are dealing with, a hardass, or one thats trying to build a reputation of one.However, she claims to be a mediator as well,so then she is going to have to listen intently to both sides of the table.
So we had better have some very straight and to the point points to hit her with,and we also need some solutions that are mostly in our favour as well.

So who is going to go do the talking for us ?After all these organisations we have just shot down are supposedly the lot representing us? NARGC....? Frying pan ,fire,springs to mind on that.
So whats the next step?Tempus is fugiting as they say...

gunny123

I live in madigans constituency. She has a reputation that makes margaret thatcher seem like a drippy leftie, which is hardly surprising seeing as veruca appointed her.

garrettod

ezra_ wrote: »

We are in a de facto run up to an election.

Orders from on-high will be to not rock the boat.

While I think you may be right, I very much doubt that it applies to the shooting community, after all ... we're the bad guys ! :mad:

ayagerard

[QUOTE=Cass;

I hope Minister Madigan has previous knowledge or experience as it may actually help us. She'll see the need for better implementation of such courses and changes. I, with bated breath, welcome her to the position. Only time will tell how it goes.[/QUOTE]

i honestly think we know more about the planet mars than mrs madaigan knows about deer conservation , but Bambi every one knows Bambi we see her on tv , mrs madaigan wil be like a puppet for a while til she gets her feet under her and sees how things work internally in the department with a lot of advice , some recommendations and others stating mandatory certification imminent ,puppets will always bow to who ever pulls the string the hardest, with a new minister we must be very careful not knowing which side of the fence she is sitting yeat ,but by all means keep a very tight pull on the rope even if it is tied to a winkers as it is the only way of keeping control of this vehicle
what we need now is along with having our vice heard first , we need to show the minister how dis-functional the the idmf really is how disconnected from the average man on the ground they are, with only their own self benefit being sought, all the proposals put forward in 2015 have not met in 2 years nods and winks phone calls absent members , non profit, organizations , groups, alliances, all these people want is money , easy money ,
which of the proposals put forward by the above mentioned , will be of benefit to the following issues, safety, conservation, poaching , implementation, what benefit to the npws , the answer is a very creditable nought, nothing, zero, common sense is getting very scarce on our little island ,every thing has to be over engineered,to its own determent what we need is more rangers with resources to implement the laws they have, count the deer so as we all know what is on the ground , prosecute poachers with fines up to 10,000 but what chance of that when you see cattle rustlers getting off on suspended sentences ,with all proceeds going back to the npws and wardens moved around to the different counties on a regular bases a couple of weeks at a time nothing permanent , now if a minister wanted to do some good these would be a good starting point if she had a minute to spare due to her other pressing work

ezra_

Cass wrote: »

With no due respect at all, she couldn't know less.

How a Minister thought she could give a "nod" to a private body to run a mandatory course with no tender, no data protection, no license, no regulation, no background check, no planning, no foresight, and most importantly no change to legislation is beyond belief.

In case anyone is still of the mind that she could ask yourself why she immediately pushed the date back. She knew she messed up and had to do some serious back peddling and the fact the deer crowd were so pissed means they got no heads up.

I hope Minister Madigan has previous knowledge or experience as it may actually help us. She'll see the need for better implementation of such courses and changes. I, with bated breath, welcome her to the position. Only time will tell how it goes.

We are in a de facto run up to an election.

Orders from on-high will be to not rock the boat.

Cass

With no due respect at all, she couldn't know less.

How a Minister thought she could give a "nod" to a private body to run a mandatory course with no tender, no data protection, no license, no regulation, no background check, no planning, no foresight, and most importantly no change to legislation is beyond belief.

In case anyone is still of the mind that she could ask yourself why she immediately pushed the date back. She knew she messed up and had to do some serious back peddling and the fact the deer crowd were so pissed means they got no heads up.

I hope Minister Madigan has previous knowledge or experience as it may actually help us. She'll see the need for better implementation of such courses and changes. I, with bated breath, welcome her to the position. Only time will tell how it goes.

garrettod

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Just in lunchtime news

Mr Varadkar promoted high profile backbench TD Josepha Madigan, of Dublin Rathdown, to take over from Ms Humphreys at the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

Well, sorry folks it definitely looks like back to the drawing board for anymore and one chancing their arms with fiendish plots.:p

I would have concerns that Ms. Madigan knows no more about hunting than Ms. Humphreys did.... which means, fear the worst my friend !

Grizzly 45

Just in lunchtime news

Mr Varadkar promoted high profile backbench TD Josepha Madigan, of Dublin Rathdown, to take over from Ms Humphreys at the Department of Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht.

Well, sorry folks it definitely looks like back to the drawing board for anymore and one chancing their arms with fiendish plots.:p

ayagerard

Hunter456 wrote: »

funny thing is some lads have being hunting deer way before these idoits got their grubby hands on to these organisations and they still expected them to sit a course makes me laugh anyway. they got their answer so they will move on to the next plan to screw the ordinary shoot in the ass

the more the merrier

**** them will leave a lot head scratchers asking why did we get into this, ! who said this was a good idea, where, where, where, is all the money! we were sa post make, like the alliance if they are stupid enough to put all their eggs in this basket they are deserving of what they get ,the scum always rises to the top of the soup when it starts to boil what bothers me all of these dimwits have companies dating back to 2015 knew this **** was coming down the line and we were just lucky enough to find out before it was rushed, or pushed, through behind our backs,. where a chosen few are trying to DICTATE to all for their own profit this can never again be allowed to happen dictatorship has no place in democracy

Hunter456

funny thing is some lads have being hunting deer way before these idoits got their grubby hands on to these organisations and they still expected them to sit a course makes me laugh anyway. they got their answer so they will move on to the next plan to screw the ordinary shoot in the ass

Walter Mittys Brother

Cass wrote: »

Here, and not to sound like a snowflake, but i got tongue lashed and raked over the coals for even asking why such a place is being set up (and it was a genuine curiosity at the time, given the proposals from the so called coalition).

Thanks for finding that thread

I reckon the reason for it has become all too clear :eek:

solarwinds

Is that the same Declan Keogh on the NASRPC thread listed as a committee member of same?

Isn't he sitting on FCP too?

Anything in this country on conflict of interest ?.
Its a bit irish that a person sets up a company for the purposes of training shooters who also sits on a panel who are doing their best to get mandatory training for shooters enacted.
Hhmmm vested interest.

gunny123

Cass wrote: »

Here, and not to sound like a snowflake, but i got tongue lashed and raked over the coals for even asking why such a place is being set up (and it was a genuine curiosity at the time, given the proposals from the so called coalition).

The usual motivation behind most things Cass, money.

Cass

cavan shooter wrote: »

Somewhere in the world of boards did we not discuss at length under I think the Sports Coalition of vested interests thread this same training academy?? I must say even inspector clusoe could draw some parallels and conclusions here.

Here, and not to sound like a snowflake, but i got tongue lashed and raked over the coals for even asking why such a place is being set up (and it was a genuine curiosity at the time, given the proposals from the so called coalition).

Walter Mittys Brother

cavan shooter wrote: »

Somewhere in the world of boards did we not discuss at length under I think the Sports Coalition of vested interests thread this same training academy?? I must say even inspector clusoe could draw some parallels and conclusions here.

It rings a bell alright.

cavan shooter

Somewhere in the world of boards did we not discuss at length under I think the Sports Coalition of vested interests thread this same training academy?? I must say even inspector clusoe could draw some parallels and conclusions here.

Walter Mittys Brother

gunny123 wrote: »

From solocheck.ie :

rish Firearms & Hunter Training Academy Limited was set up on Wednesday the 6th of May 2015. Their current address is Co. Dublin, and the company status is Normal. The company's current directors Albertus Hanekom Valentyn and Declan Keogh have been the director of 1 other Irish company between them.

Is that the same Declan Keogh on the NASRPC thread listed as a committee member of same?

Isn't he sitting on FCP too?

gunny123

Walter Mittys Brother wrote: »

There's already a setup here based out of Courtlough https://ifhta.ie/ offering some of that stuff.

Country Sports Ireland, isn't Midlands range tied in with them. Seen an announcement that JP got an appointment with them.

From solocheck.ie :

rish Firearms & Hunter Training Academy Limited was set up on Wednesday the 6th of May 2015. Their current address is Co. Dublin, and the company status is Normal. The company's current directors Albertus Hanekom Valentyn and Declan Keogh have been the director of 1 other Irish company between them.

Walter Mittys Brother

There's already a setup here based out of Courtlough https://ifhta.ie/ offering some of that stuff.

Country Sports Ireland, isn't Midlands range tied in with them. Seen an announcement that JP got an appointment with them.

cavan shooter

Resistance is futile wrote: »

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1937378139915534&id=1937363159917032

The race to be the king of the hill has just started . A group across the border are leading the race see link above

I would bet thats Country Sports Ireland, they have been very active in the last year or so they apparently were down south canvassing for members, don't quote me but they have a "guest speaker" at a few of the events and if my mate is right that same "Guest Speaker" was absolutely destroyed in Cork, for a while they were rumored to become the new NARGC again allegedly.

Resistance is futile

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1937378139915534&id=1937363159917032

The race to be the king of the hill has just started . A group across the border are leading the race see link above

.243

solarwinds wrote: »

Quote:including the different deer organisations such as the Irish Deer Society and the Wild Deer Association of Ireland, which have done far more for deer and for deer hunters than any other shooting organisation over the last forty years.

Absolutely nothing for me or the deer i shoot.

Me neither of the 20+ yrs of hunting them

solarwinds

Quote:including the different deer organisations such as the Irish Deer Society and the Wild Deer Association of Ireland, which have done far more for deer and for deer hunters than any other shooting organisation over the last forty years.

Absolutely nothing for me or the deer i shoot.
Again this has no relevance at all except to the few in these organisations who want to shoot coillte lands.

Grizzly 45

Cass wrote: »

So were the NARGC present at these meetings, who was there as a rep for the NARGC and what involvement did they have?

If they were involved in any amount they have the same questions to answer such as why not inform your membership. I'm getting a little tired of these groups making submissions and acting on the agenda of the few people at the meeting which usually is in stark contrast the best interests of the sport. If the NARGC had a hand in it, time to come clean as it'll come out at some point. A simple FOI request for the minutes of all meetings will identify the people and groups involved.

Going by the minutes of the meetings published on the forum that are public the NARGC rep was at two of them in the foundation and at the 2nd meeting. So what was Mr Doris doing in the meantime for NARGC?It seems this is another place of trilouges all right.With working groups publishing stuff internally.

"

or equivalent" is part of the Coilte handbook and has no basis in law so meaningless to non Coilte shooters.

Bit of a joke saying this, as they have been trumpeting for years that HCAP is THE only acceptable and recognised certification[for Coilte lets].

Cass

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

This recommendation was duly submitted to the Ministers concerned and confirmation of adoption of the recommendation was subsequently received by the Forum.

Not any more.

It is at best disingenuous to suggest that the NARCG were not party to consultations, which were exhaustive.

So were the NARGC present at these meetings, who was there as a rep for the NARGC and what involvement did they have?

If they were involved in any amount they have the same questions to answer such as why not inform your membership. I'm getting a little tired of these groups making submissions and acting on the agenda of the few people at the meeting which usually is in stark contrast the best interests of the sport. If the NARGC had a hand in it, time to come clean as it'll come out at some point. A simple FOI request for the minutes of all meetings will identify the people and groups involved.

In fact, as can be seen from the Recommendation, certification is not limited to Deer Alliance HCAP.

As can be seen from the LAW certification is not a prerequisite.

So far as Deer Alliance HCAP is concerned, “HCAP or equivalent” has always been and continues to be, the criterion for certification.

"or equivalent" is part of the Coilte handbook and has no basis in law so meaningless to non Coilte shooters.

By no means does mandatory certification place Deer Alliance (HCAP) “at the centre of what is a commercial venture

Yet they have scheduled 12 MCQs at 100 per test, with 6 range tests at 200 per test for 2018 alone. Guess that'll take a hit now.

Deer Alliance HCAP is a not-for-profit body, operating on a break-even basis and with full disclosure of all finances.

Then disclose them.

1,200 people they had planned to go through next year at €150 per head. That is €180,000 in one year. Please explain to me how 5 lads (because that is all that turn up at the range and i'm assuming the same at the MCQ) need €180,000 to run such a course.

I've done the math and being overly generous in costs for conference rooms, range fees, administration costs, website costs, wages/costs for the men attending (deer alliance only), etc. The best i can make up is €50,000. That leaves €130,000. So lets do something weird and double the cots of everything even things i know to be a certain amount. that is €100,000. So at best there is €80,000 left and on the higher end some €130,000 left.

HCAP des not consist of merely of “answering 30 multi choice questions and attending a range test”. Candidates must answer a minimum of forty questions correctly,

Right so it's 40, not 30. Big difference.

and then passing a rigorous test of firearms handling and marksmanship

This one i'll call out having been present for dozens of them over the years. I've seen lads fail to hit a 6 inch sighting disc at 100 yards, fail to hit an 8" heart lung area at 40 yards, and then repeat the test time and again until they passed, for an additional fee if i'm not mistaken. I've never seen one person leave without a cert. In the sake of fairness i'll say i have not attended all the tests, but i can speak to the ones i've attended.

........ or for denigrating a process of assessment and certification recognised as fit for purpose by Coillte Teoranta and National Parks & Wildlife Service;

But no one else. As in no one else recognises the course. Not the Gardaí, DoJ, Dept of A.H.G.RA, etc.

or for disrespecting the voluntary work of all those engaged in Deer Alliance HCAP,

Which volunteers? By their [lads from deer alliance] own admission from speaking to them on the range the lads present on each range test get, and the amount varies depending on who you talk to, paid for their day.

including the different deer organisations such as the Irish Deer Society and the Wild Deer Association of Ireland, which have done far more for deer and for deer hunters than any other shooting organisation over the last forty years.

Such as?

meathstevie

Only those who take part in optional training workshops achieve full marks ? Very interesting point that..What's the cost of one of those "optional" workshops ?

cavan shooter

I'd say your right but we need to ignore it and take it for what it is a major attempt to gain back lost credibility. As a group I'd say they are finished.
It doesnt really matter now, What matters is its kicked down the line the Minister has seen sense. You know what it didn't cost the NARGC a penny, no threats of court nothing....just a well thought out statement and I assume a letter. Wow how things have changed.

These shower are now as damaged as the Sports Coalition of vested interests. They were blatantly trying to screw the ordinary shooting man over and they have been found out, also Look how quick country sports Ireland was bailing in behind them with training courses.....damage done to reputations and cards marked.

Grizzly 45

Blame others for your misfortune... Latest from our friends blog.

NARGC STATEMENT ON HCAP – MISLEADING OR JUST DISHONEST?
A statement has appeared on the website of the National Association of Regional Games Councils headed “Hunter Competence Assessment Programme (HCAP)”. That statement is at best misleading and at worse just plain dishonest.

The statement addresses the requirement for mandatory certification as a prerequisite for issue of a Deer Hunting Licence (DHL), which follows a recommendation from the Irish Deer Management Forum (“the Forum”). In March 2016, after exhaustive debate, the Forum unanimously adopted the following recommendation for submission to the appointing Ministers: “That the IDMF recommend to the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht and the Minister for Agriculture, Food & the Marine that Certification of Competency from an accredited source in knowledge of wild deer species, disease recognition, management, culling and safe methods of control, together with marksmanship and safe usage and storage of firearms, be a mandatory requirement before the grant of a licence to hunt wild deer; and that mandatory certification be introduced on a phased basis over a five year period commencing on the 1st day of January 2018 for existing holders of deer hunting licences, and with immediate effect from the same date for all new applicants for deer hunting licences”.

This recommendation was duly submitted to the Ministers concerned and confirmation of adoption of the recommendation was subsequently received by the Forum.

The NARGC statement asserts that “there was no consultation that we the NARGC were aware of and have this requirement forced upon us”. The NARGC have had a seat at the Forum table from Day One and were fully involved in all deliberations of the Forum, including representation on the Communications, Training & Best Practice Working Group which was responsible for framing the Recommendation. Training and certification for deer hunters was adopted as a priority objective for the Forum from date of appointment of the Forum and was dealt with in detail in numerous submissions made in the process of public consultation over a two-year period. It is at best disingenuous to suggest that the NARCG were not party to consultations, which were exhaustive.

In fact, as can be seen from the Recommendation, certification is not limited to Deer Alliance HCAP. So far as Deer Alliance HCAP is concerned, “HCAP or equivalent” has always been and continues to be, the criterion for certification. By no means does mandatory certification place Deer Alliance (HCAP) “at the centre of what is a commercial venture, with no viable alternatives open […]”. Deer Alliance HCAP is a not-for-profit body, operating on a break-even basis and with full disclosure of all finances. It is open to any third party to put forward a programme for training, assessment and certification, with HCAP as a valid benchmark for measurement of equivalency. HCAP has processed some 2400 candidates since 2005, when certification became a mandatory requirement for hunters wishing to hunt deer on Coillte forest property. HCAP des not consist of merely of “answering 30 multi choice questions and attending a range test”. Candidates must answer a minimum of forty questions correctly, and then passing a rigorous test of firearms handling and marksmanship. Both stages are demanding of ability and generally, only those candidates who engage in optional Training Workshops and careful study of the Deer Alliance Stalker Training Manual, and then show up for the Range Test with firearms correctly zeroed, safe to use and being capable of putting the requisite number of rounds onto the target on their first attempt, achieve maximum results.

It may be the case that internal dissension and seismic change interfered with the NARGC’s involvement with the different processes and debates engaged in by the Forum in recent months. That is no excuse for misleading their membership as to consultation, or for denigrating a process of assessment and certification recognised as fit for purpose by Coillte Teoranta and National Parks & Wildlife Service; or for disrespecting the voluntary work of all those engaged in Deer Alliance HCAP, including the different deer organisations such as the Irish Deer Society and the Wild Deer Association of Ireland, which have done far more for deer and for deer hunters than any other shooting organisation over the last forty years.

Resistance is futile

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1720302428004143&id=190104431023958
Just spotted this statement on the nargc facebook page and it's great to see at least one shooting/hunting organization standing by and up for its members instead of getting ready to sell us out to corporate management of our sport by so many other . Shame on you The Sports coalition of vested interests and the Far too deer societies .