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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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ixoy

deezell wrote: »

Just connect the Nest wirelessly to its heatlink box and sit it in the Living room, powered by it's little mains adapter. Later, ( radiator restored) if you wish you can wall mount it where the old stat was and reuse the old stat wires to power and connect the nest back to the heatlink box.

Thanks - the heatlink box was the piece I was missing in my head.

The deal for these on Electric Ireland seems far better than any online deal - am I missing something? Are they using an older model?

deezell

ixoy wrote: »

Thanks - the heatlink box was the piece I was missing in my head.

The deal for these on Electric Ireland seems far better than any online deal - am I missing something? Are they using an older model?

You'll have to ask E I. The generation 2 nest doesn't have the HW relay in the heatlink box, so your HW will still be controlled just by the CTC timer and cylinder stat if you have one. Gen 3 allows the nest to time the HW as well as heating, no big deal. This notion of turning on the HW by phone just on your way home sounds like a Des Bishop sketch. (DONT LEAVE ON THE IMMERSION!!!)

Great deal as it includes install. Is it free if you change over to EI?

deezell

punisher5112 wrote: »

Is the nest 3rd gen at £149 good???

Would seem to be but see post re Electric Ireland €130 offer

Ush1

I got an ember system with two zones. Anybody know if this can be controlled with Google home?

matrim

Ush1 wrote: »

I got an ember system with two zones. Anybody know if this can be controlled with Google home?

Not directly. If you have home assistant I've written a component for the ember. You can the go google home -> home assistant -> ember

Pique

Ush1 wrote: »

I got an ember system with two zones. Anybody know if this can be controlled with Google home?

Just got the controls installed yesterday and collecting the gateway tomorrow. How do you find it?

matrim

Pique wrote: »

Just got the controls installed yesterday and collecting the gateway tomorrow. How do you find it?

Functionally it all works fine for basic time and thermostat controls (with an app frontend) but it doesn't look great and judging from the look of the API / software, I wouldn't be confident of future updates to add integrations into things like google home. I would also have preferred smart TRVs for some of my radiators but my plumber talked me out of them, which I regret now.

I also found the gateway a bit of a pain to setup. The instructions are simple, but the light never changed to "paired" mode when I was configuring the wifi. The only reason I knew it was connected was because I checked my router and could see it there.

Pique

matrim wrote: »

Pique wrote: »

Just got the controls installed yesterday and collecting the gateway tomorrow. How do you find it?

Functionally it all works fine for basic time and thermostat controls (with an app frontend) but it doesn't look great and judging from the look of the API / software, I wouldn't be confident of future updates to add integrations into things like google home. I would also have preferred smart TRVs for some of my radiators but my plumber talked me out of them, which I regret now.

I also found the gateway a bit of a pain to setup. The instructions are simple, but the light never changed to "paired" mode when I was configuring the wifi. The only reason I knew it was connected was because I checked my router and could see it there.

Hhmmm. Well TBH, GH integration isn't on my list, so as long as the app and stats work, I'll be happy. I assume you can set a prefered temp and the zone opens when necessary and closes when reached?

Do EPH do smart TRVs?

The pairing I can play with. It'll give me something to do over the weekend.

Thanks for the info.

matrim

Pique wrote: »

Hhmmm. Well TBH, GH integration isn't on my list, so as long as the app and stats work, I'll be happy. I assume you can set a prefered temp and the zone opens when necessary and closes when reached?

The pairing I can play with. It'll give me something to do over the weekend.

Thanks for the info.

You can set 3 time frames (per zone) for the boiler per day and then have a thermostat that controls if / when the boiler fires in those times. So from that perspective it all works fine. If you install the app now, they have a "demo" setup that lets you see what you can do.

But it would have been nice to be able to set a temperature per time frame, e.g. in the morning set it to 20C and in the evening 21C.

Pique

matrim wrote: »

But it would have been nice to be able to set a temperature per time frame, e.g. in the morning set it to 20C and in the evening 21C.

Gotcha. Yeah, that's nearly a 'must have' nowadays.
Maybe email them and ask. I know I'll do that and you never know, they might think 'oh yeah, that's a good idea' and implement it.
Can't hurt.

mickdw

Typical old firebird.
Adding Climote controller.
Electrician proposed just basically running the main live feed through the climate so the boiler will be dead completely when climote doesnt call for heat.
Currently running off its own timeclock on front panel, the mains light stays on on the boiler regardless of whether its actually running or not. Is it ok the way the electricianhas suggested or can the setup in attached photo have a feed from the climote connected in to make it behave exactly like it does now, that is with mains light on even when timer shuts off.
Electrician is the type that runs in and is gone again in a flash and no doubt he is going the quickest and easiest way for him.
Any advice?

deezell

mickdw wrote: »

Typical old firebird.
Adding Climote controller.
Electrician proposed just basically running the main live feed through the climate so the boiler will be dead completely when climote doesnt call for heat.
Currently running off its own timeclock on front panel, the mains light stays on on the boiler regardless of whether its actually running or not. Is it ok the way the electricianhas suggested or can the setup in attached photo have a feed from the climote connected in to make it behave exactly like it does now, that is with mains light on even when timer shuts off.
Electrician is the type that runs in and is gone again in a flash and no doubt he is going the quickest and easiest way for him.
Any advice?

You are right, electrician is just being a tosser. If I'm not mistaken the loop wire on the bottom of the right hand terminal block is the Switched live from the timer etc. to the burner. Remove this loop and the boiler will cut off even when the timer is on or switch is on constant ( if it has such a switch). Interpose the climote relay in this loop and it will control firing of the boiler. Some burners need power after the call for heat is off to allow the fan to run for a bit to purge exhaust gasses.

mickdw

Thanks.
OK so was having a quick look at this myself this morning.
Using its own timeclock or constant on from own front panel, power comes down to one side of that little loop and obviously loop allows power back up the other side... established this by removing loop for a minute and testing with multimeter. With own timer off, there is no power down to loop.
I therefore figured that if I remove loop, set burner to constant on and put switched feed from climote into one side of loop all would be good. That would mean power was coming down to one side of loop and stopping there. Switched live from climote was sending power up the other side so boiler will run when switching on climote and it does however when climote is off, the boiler panel switch being at constant means there is some stuff still running in the boiler like fans etc at all times so that is clearly no good.
Setting it's own timer to off and constant switch to off and putting climote switched feed up both sides of loop position makes it run ok but I don't know if that would be wise.

deezell

mickdw wrote: »

Thanks.
OK so was having a quick look at this myself this morning.
Using its own timeclock or constant on from own front panel, power comes down to one side of that little loop and obviously loop allows power back up the other side... established this by removing loop for a minute and testing with multimeter. With own timer off, there is no power down to loop.
I therefore figured that if I remove loop, set burner to constant on and put switched feed from climote into one side of loop all would be good. That would mean power was coming down to one side of loop and stopping there. Switched live from climote was sending power up the other side so boiler will run when switching on climote and it does however when climote is off, the boiler panel switch being at constant means there is some stuff still running in the boiler like fans etc at all times so that is clearly no good.
Setting it's own timer to off and constant switch to off and putting climote switched feed up both sides of loop position makes it run ok but I don't know if that would be wise.

Last option not wise. First option where you take switched live from the climote is ok, but if the live from the climote is coming from a different fuse board breaker than the boiler live then it's not ideal. If one of the lives is via the ELCB ( residual current breaker, which protects virtually all sockets) and the other is not, usual for hard wired earthed appliances, then the ELCB will trip as both live and neutral must come from the same elcb socket. If the boiler and climote are on different circuits, you should wire both terminals from the loop back to the climote and connect to the volt free contacts, 1 and 3.

deezell

Actually just read your post again, missed the bit about fans running. You definitely need to connect both terminals to 1 and 3 on the climote, don't take live from the climote.

mickdw

Thanks. If that's what it needs, I will just tell electrician I want it done that way.

Just from what I discovered this morning re how power runs to that loop, wouldnt switch on panel still have to be put to constant on?
When I did that without loop, fans run. Surely fan will still then run if connecting both sides back to climote and climote is not calling for heat?

deezell

mickdw wrote: »

Thanks. If that's what it needs, I will just tell electrician I want it done that way.

Just from what I discovered this morning re how power runs to that loop, wouldnt switch on panel still have to be put to constant on?
When I did that without loop, fans run. Surely fan will still then run if connecting both sides back to climote and climote is not calling for heat?

Did you wait an see how long the fans run for? They should be on a seperate timer. That loop is generally where you install the thermostat. I recall on another old boiler I had in a previous house that when you threw the power to the boiler the motor started up for several minutes, then it would either fire if the stat was closed for heat, or else just turn off. Closing the stat would kick it off, motor would run and after a short time it would fire. Opening the stat while firing would cut the firing ( by closing the oil valve) but the motor would run on for a short while. This is known as pre and post purge, a feature of certain types of burner/ boiler without a hydraulic air gate. I'm thinking this is what you have. Power it up with the loop open but the timer or constant on. See how long the motor runs. It should stop after a while.

mickdw

Right.
Will investigate thanks.

Ush1

matrim wrote: »

Not directly. If you have home assistant I've written a component for the ember. You can the go google home -> home assistant -> ember

Thanks. Okay so I'll need to setup a raspberry pi with home assistant first?

ixoy

Back to Nest Thermostat:
EI will sell you 1 nest + installation for €130 which is a great price. The 2nd Nest Thermostat (for a 2nd zone) would be €270.
Is there any reason why I couldn't just take them up on their first offer and then do the 2nd zone myself, buying it much more cheaply on Amazon? I'm not sure how difficult it is to install a heatlink but not worth the €100+ extra EI would want.

deezell

ixoy wrote: »

Back to Nest Thermostat:
EI will sell you 1 nest + installation for €130 which is a great price. The 2nd Nest Thermostat (for a 2nd zone) would be €270.
Is there any reason why I couldn't just take them up on their first offer and then do the 2nd zone myself, buying it much more cheaply on Amazon? I'm not sure how difficult it is to install a heatlink but not worth the €100+ extra EI would want.

Have a go. Watch carefully what the ei installer does

deezell

Install is as simple as plugging in heatlink ( having wired a main's cable to it) beside the zone valve, disconnect the two wires going to that zone's old stat and reconnect them to the heatlink COM/NO terminals. The Nest will connect wirelessly to the heatlink. You can put it anywhere in the zone powered by it's little charger. Job done.
You can also mount it where the old zone stat was, and reuse the redundant wires going back to the zone valve to connect the nest to another pair of terminals on the heatlink. These power the nest at low voltage and carry the data between nest and heatlink so no wireless connection or charger required. This is handy if the heatlink is quite far from the nest, no wireless dropout.
That's it in a nutshell.

kave2

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kave2

Hi, received my first Google Home couple of days ago, ordered Hue Gu10 starter packs too. Now I'm thinking about smartening my heating. Need a bit of advice. I have 3 zones, upstairs, downstairs and hot water. There is this digital unit underneath the boiler
https://photos.app.goo.gl/EtqiaMHGllv8ShMc2

And these 2 thermostats on each floor
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VTsf0uNSCT1pn0kZ2

Did a bit of research, is Tado my only option? What exactly do i need? 2 thermostats? Is there a boost option available on them? Thanks a lot.

deezell

kave2 wrote: »

Hi, received my first Google Home couple of days ago, ordered Hue Gu10 starter packs too. Now I'm thinking about smartening my heating. Need a bit of advice. I have 3 zones, upstairs, downstairs and hot water. There is this digital unit underneath the boiler
https://photos.app.goo.gl/EtqiaMHGllv8ShMc2

And these 2 thermostats on each floor
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VTsf0uNSCT1pn0kZ2

Did a bit of research, is Tado my only option? What exactly do i need? 2 thermostats? Is there a boost option available on them? Thanks a lot.

Tado not the only option, 2 stats will do it, stats have manual boost via stat or app.

deezell

Just to add a bit more detail, the easiest solution is to just replace the stats with smart ones which have the zone relay internally. Tado or Netamo fit the bill. You then leave your EPH controller in situ, and program the two heating zones as constant or always on. The smart stats take over the timing function of the EPH. The HW zone can be left alone unless you really must have remote control of it's timing, which is unlikely to achieve any savings.
The Tado stat starter kit comes with a bridge device to connect to your router via an Ethernet cable, and a power supply for same. The stats connect wirelessly ( but not using Wi-Fi) to this bridge which then connects to the tado servers and from there to your pc/ phone app. The second stat uses the same bridge so is bought as a standalone device, costing less than a full starter kit.. IF you want app control of HW, you can buy an extension kit box which connects to the HW circuit of your existing controller and can control HW timing, but not temperature. HW temperature is controlled by a standard cylinder stat which you may already have on your current system. The ext. box if fitted, can also replicate the contacts of one of the stats, which can connect wirelessly to it, so you can locate one stat anywhere in it's zone and not just where the original stat was.
Other options are Nest, Honeywell and others. EPH have an internet/ wireless version of your current programmer called Ember, which is a plugin replacement on to the same baseplate, so no wiring, and the smart stats that come with it are wireless so no rewiring stats required. It has an internet bridge and app, but doesn't have the 'smarts' of the other brands in terms of functionality.

Ush1

If you have the eph ember system with 2 zones, could you just replace the eph stats with hive or a better g home integrated heating stat?

deezell

Ush1 wrote: »

If you have the eph ember system with 2 zones, could you just replace the eph stats with hive or a better g home integrated heating stat?

The ember stats are wirelessly bound to the ember controller. Afaik, there are no wired connections for the 3 stats on the ember controller, it would not pair wireless stats from another brand, and would have no knowledge of other smart stats were they to wired into the system externally to the controller. You can install other smart stats, but would need to wire their control relays into your existing system to fire the boiler. The ember controller, gateway and app would be redundant at this point.

kave2

deezell wrote: »

Just to add a bit more detail, the easiest solution is to just replace the stats with smart ones which have the zone relay internally. Tado or Netamo fit the bill. You then leave your EPH controller in situ, and program the two heating zones as constant or always on. The smart stats take over the timing function of the EPH. The HW zone can be left alone unless you really must have remote control of it's timing, which is unlikely to achieve any savings.
The Tado stat starter kit comes with a bridge device to connect to your router via an Ethernet cable, and a power supply for same. The stats connect wirelessly ( but not using Wi-Fi) to this bridge which then connects to the tado servers and from there to your pc/ phone app. The second stat uses the same bridge so is bought as a standalone device, costing less than a full starter kit.. IF you want app control of HW, you can buy an extension kit box which connects to the HW circuit of your existing controller and can control HW timing, but not temperature. HW temperature is controlled by a standard cylinder stat which you may already have on your current system. The ext. box if fitted, can also replicate the contacts of one of the stats, which can connect wirelessly to it, so you can locate one stat anywhere in it's zone and not just where the original stat was.
Other options are Nest, Honeywell and others. EPH have an internet/ wireless version of your current programmer called Ember, which is a plugin replacement on to the same baseplate, so no wiring, and the smart stats that come with it are wireless so no rewiring stats required. It has an internet bridge and app, but doesn't have the 'smarts' of the other brands in terms of functionality.

So in order to have full control, I need Tado starter kit, additional thermostat and extension kit? This would allow me to have full control over 2 zones and HW, am I right? The EPH unit would then be removed?

Other possibility is to keep EPH unit and replace the 2 thermostats. This solution doesn't limit me to Tado only, I can go with Nest, Hive, Netamo... HW will be controlled by the EPH unit.

I'm trying to wrap my head around it as I am completely new to this.

In general, is there any advantage of Tado vs Nest? Or any other ones? I do like the look of Nest. Thaks a lot.

deezell

kave2 wrote: »

So in order to have full control, I need Tado starter kit, additional thermostat and extension kit? This would allow me to have full control over 2 zones and HW, am I right? The EPH unit would then be removed?

Other possibility is to keep EPH unit and replace the 2 thermostats. This solution doesn't limit me to Tado only, I can go with Nest, Hive, Netamo... HW will be controlled by the EPH unit.

I'm trying to wrap my head around it as I am completely new to this.

In general, is there any advantage of Tado vs Nest? Or any other ones? I do like the look of Nest. Thaks a lot.

You don't need to remove the EPH for any solution, just set the zone to always on if you are changing the zone stat to a smart one. EPH is a timer, thats all. The Tado extension kit kit adds timing for the HW, and wireless connection for one tado stat. Tado stats, Netamo also, will wire directly in place of eph stats. Nest stat comes complete with extension box known as heatlink. This also gives nest wireless connection and HW control .You must buy a complete second nest to get the extra stat.
You can upgrade a zone at a time. Two tado stats, leave HW timing on EPH. One nest kit, leave one heating zone on EPH stat and timer, and so on.