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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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dball

anyone buying a Tado - sit tight.
I got this email this evening from them

Have a white Christmas
with tado° instead
20% off all Starter Kits.
Starts December 11th.*
Get ready
save from December 11th to 31st

ctlsleh

deezell wrote: »

When you say you don't heat the cylinder that often, you mean you have it on an occasional time slot? So the closed cylinder thermostat/ relay gets no response from the boiler until the next timer slot and may not be heating long enough to reach the thermostats set temperature. The relay would indeed be powered constantly as a result. Using a wired stat means running cables. My only suggestion would be that if you get a replacement receiver unit, you power it from the occasional timed voltage, presumably from one of the nests. When the timer calls, the receiver will first pair with the wireless cylinder stat, which in turn will open the relay, which then opens the valve and calls the boiler. If the timer turns off before the stat reaches temperature, power is removed from the relay and hence the valve. The relay should last a bit longer this way, but ideally you would just have the HW on most of the time with the stat just topping it up, and the relay mostly open. If you don't have a deep insulated cylinder this can be inefficient, which is why most use timer Top up of HW

You got it........basically I set the upper temp limit on the cylinder at 64degrees, so the thermostat is always calling for heat, the receiver is in line with the nest call for heat on the boiler, so unless the nest is actually calling for heat itself through the timer or manually, then the boiler isn’t activated.......I’m using the danfoss CET2000 and RX1-S

But your idea is really clever, I’ll use the nest to also power the receiver so when the nest turns calls for heat on the hot water, the receiver gets power and pulls the relay, smart idea, ........many thanks

deezell

ctlsleh wrote: »

I have 3 zones, upstairs, downstairs and hot water, each have their own motorised value on the boiler. I have 2 nests.
I tried a Danfoss Wireless thermostat set up where I put the receiver unit in line with the nest call for heat so that when the cylinder temp reached the set point, the receiver opened the relay between the nest and the value, thereby turning off the hot water feed to the cylinder.
However as I don’t hear the cylinder that often, the thermostat was always calling for heat and the relay at the receiver was always open. I think it just burned out so I’m trying to come up with an alternative idea.......
Thanks for all the feedback

When you say you don't heat the cylinder that often, you mean you have it on an occasional time slot? So the closed cylinder thermostat/ relay gets no response from the boiler until the next timer slot and may not be heating long enough to reach the thermostats set temperature. The relay would indeed be powered constantly as a result. Using a wired stat means running cables. My only suggestion would be that if you get a replacement receiver unit, you power it from the occasional timed voltage, presumably from one of the nests. When the timer calls, the receiver will first pair with the wireless cylinder stat, which in turn will open the relay, which then opens the valve and calls the boiler. If the timer turns off before the stat reaches temperature, power is removed from the relay and hence the valve. The relay should last a bit longer this way, but ideally you would just have the HW on most of the time with the stat just topping it up, and the relay mostly open. If you don't have a deep insulated cylinder this can be inefficient, which is why most use timer Top up of HW

Aph2016

£149.99 Amazon UK

ctlsleh

deezell wrote: »

ctlsleh wrote: »

What do recommend for the cylinder stat, I don’t have any wiring at mine, there was never a thermostat.......I have 2xNests....they are wired up,downstairs at the boiler.....?

If your boiker is downstairs and cylinder is upstairs, standard 2 story arrangement, it is v common for the cylinder to be gravity fed. When the boiler is on the cylinder will heat. One arrangement is to have the boiler on its own timer, coming on and off and heating the HW. Theres a HW/CH switch which turns on the pump for heating. The hall stat then controls this pump. This is as crude as it gets. You can have zone valves for up/down but the HW might still be simple gravity while the boiler is on. This is fine as both valves closed means only HW is on. A cylinder stat would help to prevent overheating, but HW temp is limits to the boiler temperature. Usually at this point a 3 zone timer is installed to fire the boiler for each zone. If the HW doesn't have a valve it will always heat when either zone us on, and the HW timer on the controller can be used to heat it Independently, a cylinder stat will control the HW temperature while it's heating this way. For fully independent HW heating the cylinder stat should open a valve for the cylinder. If your cylinder is well insulated it doesn't need a timer, it will stay topped up on demand. You won't save much by turning it on and off a few times a day, unless you have a really old uninsulated cylinder

I have 3 zones, upstairs, downstairs and hot water, each have their own motorised value on the boiler. I have 2 nests.
I tried a Danfoss Wireless thermostat set up where I put the receiver unit in line with the nest call for heat so that when the cylinder temp reached the set point, the receiver opened the relay between the nest and the value, thereby turning off the hot water feed to the cylinder.
However as I don’t hear the cylinder that often, the thermostat was always calling for heat and the relay at the receiver was always closed, I think it just burned out so I’m trying to come up with an alternative idea.......
Thanks for all the feedback

ctlsleh

deezell wrote: »

ctlsleh wrote: »

What do recommend for the cylinder stat, I don’t have any wiring at mine, there was never a thermostat.......I have 2xNests....they are wired up,downstairs at the boiler.....?

https://www.goodwins.ie/products/schuller-clamp-on-pipe-thermostat-2310334.html

Thanks and how do you wire that back to the nest? I never had a thermostat in my hot press which is upstairs and my nest and boiler are downstairs.....?

I tried a remote wireless danfoss thermostat but the relay at the boiler end burned out as it was always on (calling for heat).
Any suggestions welcome.....

KD11

Nest Thermostat is at £154.99 now on amazon if anyones interested. At its lowest price now. Cant imagine it getting any lower on friday.

judeboy101 wrote: »

Ok, two things.

1.Will thermostat upstairs not compete with netamo?

With this setup, you would just disconnect the old thermostat and just use the Netatmo instead.

So currently you probably have something like:
Thermostat -> Timer -> Boiler

You will now have:
Netatmo (wireless) -> Relay (replaces timer) -> Boiler

judeboy101 wrote: »

2. And for bridge do u mean relay that comes with thermostat? Would i have to hardwire it to bb ?

Sorry, yes, they call it a relay. The relay connects to your BB using wifi.

judeboy101

bk wrote: »

Yes, you could do it that way. Alternatively you could replace the timer with the Netatmo Bridge and this allows you to have the Netatmo wireless in any room you want (within wireless range).

Ok, two things.

1.Will thermostat upstairs not compete with netamo?

2. And for bridge do u mean relay that comes with thermostat? Would i have to hardwire it to bb ?

deezell

JazzyJ wrote: »

Hey,

I'm looking for advice too - leaning towards getting a Tado system. Currently have OFCH, with just a single zone for the central heating and hot water cylinder. This is currently controlled by a Honeywell CM927/BDR91. The immersion on the cylinder has a mechanical timer on it (timing part has broken in the last few weeks it never turns itself off when on timed mode).

What would be the best upgrades that I could put in? I'm thinking:
Replace the CM927 with a Tado with extension kit for the central heating.

Smart TRVs on radiators

Another Tado extension kit for the immersion (I think this possible, but I'm not sure)

Would there be any better setup than the above for the type of system that I have?

I'm assuming HW cylinder is heated when the boiler fires for the central heating. You have no facility to heat HW without turning on the radiators, other than using the immersion. Your current stat is wireless, so there's no cables to its location. If you're happy enough to leave things this way the a tado with ext box or nest will be ideal. both will work wirelessly back to their control box, and both control boxes have separate relays for HW and heating, so you could in the first instance just use the main relay contacts to fire the boiler and heat the house generally, the second pair either to power the immersion (current rating permitting), or to operate a zone valve which will allow the HW to be heated separately without the radiators, (which will also require their own zone valve). Its possible your cylinder is heated by gravity from the boiler, and the radiators by switching a pump. There are a no. of ways to connect such a system once you have two timed relays, the HW contacts could be used as a means of firing the boiler in general which would heat water, and the thermostat controlled contacts used to turn on the pump if heating is needed. Without zone valves you can't have two timers calling the boiler simply by cross connecting their live outputs from the timers, as the HW call would just feed back to the heating call and power on its pump. Zone valves have additional relays in them to isolate the call for the boiler from the stat or timer signals.
The nest can't interface with TRVs, but there is nothing wrong with having dumb or smart TRVs in the rooms away from where the stat is located. With tado the TRVs can call the boiler via the stat/extension box when they drop below set temperature. You can have a system composed entirely of tado TRVs and an extension box, no main stat needed.
As for your immersion timing, why not use the redundant Honeywell timer to operate it. Id assume you only use it when the oil boiler has not been on, but if you change your setup to heat HW without the central heating, oil is a far less expensive source of hot water.

judeboy101 wrote: »

so i just wire up the netamo inplace of thermostat ( yokey with dial for temp) set my timer (myson type) to always on, and basically use the netamo as an on off switch that i can program for multiple times or for wheneever i want, plus be able to link it to my alexa ?

Yes, you could do it that way. Alternatively you could replace the timer with the Netatmo Bridge and this allows you to have the Netatmo wireless in any room you want (within wireless range).

judeboy101

bk wrote: »

Nest/Hive would work, but I'd recommend Netatmo (or Tado).

I've the same setup as you with a Netatmo thermostat. Super easy to install, it is most likely just a drop in replacement for your existing thermostat.

Advantage of Netatmo/Tado is that you could get Smart TRV's later to create each room as it's own zone. Nest/Hive don't have these.

so i just wire up the netamo inplace of thermostat ( yokey with dial for temp) set my timer (myson type) to always on, and basically use the netamo as an on off switch that i can program for multiple times or for wheneever i want, plus be able to link it to my alexa ?

frankthetank83

JazzyJ wrote: »

Hey,

I'm looking for advice too - leaning towards getting a Tado system. Currently have OFCH, with just a single zone for the central heating and hot water cylinder. This is currently controlled by a Honeywell CM927/BDR91. The immersion on the cylinder has a mechanical timer on it (timing part has broken in the last few weeks it never turns itself off when on timed mode).

What would be the best upgrades that I could put in? I'm thinking:
Replace the CM927 with a Tado with extension kit for the central heating.

Smart TRVs on radiators

Another Tado extension kit for the immersion (I think this possible, but I'm not sure)

Would there be any better setup than the above for the type of system that I have?

I know Honeywell Evohome does the wireless TRVs and hot water control (through boiler, not immersion). My relative has it and its really good i believe. Not sure of price but I've know a good few home services companies do it and you can get SEAI grant for it too.
http://churchfieldhomeservices.ie/honeywell-evohome-heating-controls
https://shop.electricireland.ie/products
https://www.ie.screwfix.com/honeywell-evohome-wi-fi-connected-thermostat-pack.html

JazzyJ

Hey,

I'm looking for advice too - leaning towards getting a Tado system. Currently have OFCH, with just a single zone for the central heating and hot water cylinder. This is currently controlled by a Honeywell CM927/BDR91. The immersion on the cylinder has a mechanical timer on it (timing part has broken in the last few weeks

it never turns itself off when on timed mode).

What would be the best upgrades that I could put in? I'm thinking:

Replace the CM927 with a Tado with extension kit for the central heating.
Smart TRVs on radiators
Another Tado extension kit for the immersion (I think this possible, but I'm not sure)

Would there be any better setup than the above for the type of system that I have?

frankthetank83

Nest is just €130 with free installation if your an elec Ireland customer. Didn't have to sign up to contract as I'm already with them.

https://shop.electricireland.ie/products/install-detail/nest-thermostat

irelandrover

judeboy101 wrote: »

hey all,
bit of advice. have a combi boiler, house is one zone. thermostat on wall upstairs, no hotwater cylinder. timer for heating only allows two times to be set so pretty useless. im half decent at diy so wiring wont daunt me. which one nest/hive etc would suit my scenario?

thanks

I have the same setup and ordered the Tado. Reason being is I want to put a TRV into the nursery to control that room seperately. Another alternative was Netatmo but I prefer the look of the Tado thermostat.

judeboy101 wrote: »

hey all,
bit of advice. have a combi boiler, house is one zone. thermostat on wall upstairs, no hotwater cylinder. timer for heating only allows two times to be set so pretty useless. im half decent at diy so wiring wont daunt me. which one nest/hive etc would suit my scenario?

thanks

Nest/Hive would work, but I'd recommend Netatmo (or Tado).

I've the same setup as you with a Netatmo thermostat. Super easy to install, it is most likely just a drop in replacement for your existing thermostat.

Advantage of Netatmo/Tado is that you could get Smart TRV's later to create each room as it's own zone. Nest/Hive don't have these.

judeboy101

hey all,
bit of advice. have a combi boiler, house is one zone. thermostat on wall upstairs, no hotwater cylinder. timer for heating only allows two times to be set so pretty useless. im half decent at diy so wiring wont daunt me. which one nest/hive etc would suit my scenario?

thanks

deezell

ctlsleh wrote: »

What do recommend for the cylinder stat, I don’t have any wiring at mine, there was never a thermostat.......I have 2xNests....they are wired up,downstairs at the boiler.....?

If your boiker is downstairs and cylinder is upstairs, standard 2 story arrangement, it is v common for the cylinder to be gravity fed. When the boiler is on the cylinder will heat. One arrangement is to have the boiler on its own timer, coming on and off and heating the HW. Theres a HW/CH switch which turns on the pump for heating. The hall stat then controls this pump. This is as crude as it gets. You can have zone valves for up/down but the HW might still be simple gravity while the boiler is on. This is fine as both valves closed means only HW is on. A cylinder stat would help to prevent overheating, but HW temp is limits to the boiler temperature. Usually at this point a 3 zone timer is installed to fire the boiler for each zone. If the HW doesn't have a valve it will always heat when either zone us on, and the HW timer on the controller can be used to heat it Independently, a cylinder stat will control the HW temperature while it's heating this way. For fully independent HW heating the cylinder stat should open a valve for the cylinder. If your cylinder is well insulated it doesn't need a timer, it will stay topped up on demand. You won't save much by turning it on and off a few times a day, unless you have a really old uninsulated cylinder

Nest is down to £160 on amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nest-Learning-Thermostat-3rd-Generation/dp/B016PW3JSG/ref=gbps_tit_m-8_743f_8d880d23?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_p=70cc2865-9b7e-46cb-9c01-b5215c83743f&pf_rd_s=merchandised-search-8&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=161428031&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=3RW7BE4BG6H0S03348ZQ

skerry

Nests down to €229 on littlewoods for black Friday, not sure how good a deal that is.

https://www.littlewoodsireland.ie/nest-learning-thermostat-3rd-generation/1600228981.prd

deezell

mickdw wrote: »

I want to run some cables for climote before I close up some new walls.
There is no wiring at climote position currently and it is to connect to an old super q burner with timer on front panel.
Everything is fully open at the minute so I can get cables from burner to climote position. Consumer unit to climote position if needed.
What should I stick in before closing up the walls?
Electrician is coming back to finish up with switches and sockets etc in a couple of weeks but he never answers his phone.

Show him this. Mains pair, at least one wire each to living room stat, HW stat and optional bed zone stat. Good practice is to bring a pair gor esch back to the zone valve location, a pair from each stat as well. Is there a stat built into the climote? Then just a stat if the bed zone is used, and a stat on the cylinder which is likely beside the zone valve. You may in fact need no more than a wire back to fire the boiler for heating if you have just one zone and the cylinder is gravity fed. You won't have seperate control of HW though.

deezell

ctlsleh wrote: »

What do recommend for the cylinder stat, I don’t have any wiring at mine, there was never a thermostat.......I have 2xNests....they are wired up,downstairs at the boiler.....?

https://www.goodwins.ie/products/schuller-clamp-on-pipe-thermostat-2310334.html

mickdw

I want to run some cables for climote before I close up some new walls.
There is no wiring at climote position currently and it is to connect to an old super q burner with timer on front panel.
Everything is fully open at the minute so I can get cables from burner to climote position. Consumer unit to climote position if needed.
What should I stick in before closing up the walls?
Electrician is coming back to finish up with switches and sockets etc in a couple of weeks but he never answers his phone.

ctlsleh

deezell wrote: »

Tado ext. box €85, 3 port valve €60-80. You'll need a cylinder stat also, about €15-20. €800+ for labour? Nothing surprises me where grants are concerned.

What do recommend for the cylinder stat, I don’t have any wiring at mine, there was never a thermostat.......I have 2xNests....they are wired up,downstairs at the boiler.....?

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Hi bk,

Yep definitely. I have a three zone system, controlled by two nest stats.

The first stat controls the living zone and the water zone (separately and independently) and the second stat does the bedroom zone only.

All three zones are indeoendtly controllable from nest and all three can have their own schedules etc

Ah, yes, that makes sense, in your post you said "Neat", probably silly spell checker, I thought you meant Netatmo.

Yes, Nest supports hot water zone. Netatmo doesn't.

Nest though lacks smart TRV's, which my sister would really benefit from.

Tado is probably the most complete system, with multi zone support, hot water support and smart TVR's. But it looks like it would cost more then Netatmo form Energia, so I'm not sure if it is worth it for her.

Netatmo + smart TVR's would fix her main issue, upstairs being too warm and given that she mostly uses electric showers, Im' not sure she would be too bothered about hot water zone.

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

I don't think it does. As in a separate hot water zone where you can control water going to the boiler separate from the rads.

If you have a combi boiler or you don't have a separate hot water zone (as in your hot water just always heats the water in the tank) then Netatmo will work with them, but it isn't really controlling the hot water.

Or have you figured out a way to do it? Be really interested if you have?

Do you think it is worth it. Specially for a person who uses electric showers?

Thing is she could get the Netatmo for free with Energia. And I could install the TVR's for her later. Free is hard to beat!

Hi bk,

Yep definitely. I have a three zone system, controlled by two nest stats.

The first stat controls the living zone and the water zone (separately and independently) and the second stat does the bedroom zone only.

All three zones are indeoendtly controllable from nest and all three can have their own schedules etc

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Hi bk,

The neat does hot water zones though, I have it doing mine ?

I don't think it does. As in a separate hot water zone where you can control water going to the boiler separate from the rads.

If you have a combi boiler or you don't have a separate hot water zone (as in your hot water just always heats the water in the tank) then Netatmo will work with them, but it isn't really controlling the hot water.

Or have you figured out a way to do it? Be really interested if you have?

deezell wrote: »

Tado ext. box €85, 3 port valve €60-80. You'll need a cylinder stat also, about €15-20. €800+ for labour? Nothing surprises me where grants are concerned.

Do you think it is worth it. Specially for a person who uses electric showers?

Thing is she could get the Netatmo for free with Energia. And I could install the TVR's for her later. Free is hard to beat!

wexfordman2

bk wrote: »

Yep and I just last week recommended Tado to my sister even though a bit more expensive, so that she has the option of a hot water zone in future.

BTW deezell, I meant to ask you, do you have any idea how much it costs to get a HW zone valve installed? And is it worth it?

Her hot water cylinder is now just heated when the rads are on or by immersion. Her showers are also electric! To be honest, it all doesn't sound very efficient.

I'm recommending the Tado plus Smart TRV's for upstairs so she can create an upstairs zone. At the moment upstairs ends up far too hot compared to a normal temp downstairs.

Hi bk,

The neat does hot water zones though, I have it doing mine ?

sharkman

deezell wrote: »

Are you saying it cost €1000 before Grant?

Sorry , Tado extension was €100 approx and plumber charged €320 all in to fit and set up . Also needed was a thermostat on the tank .