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Gender pay gap- real or just a result of bad negotiations?

lifeandtimes

I'm starting this thread separately from the other threads as they were for specific individuals and their pay.

I'd be of the mind set that the "gender pay gap" doesn't exists based purely on gender but more down to bad negotiations from employees and/or their agents.

An article in the indo today regarding a tv3 present who has left after 11 years blaming the gender pay gap as the reason why.

This person was happy with the figure agreed from the get go and is only having issue now as this is a hot topic.

Certainly if a woman is unhappy with their pay(which they agree to too begin with) she must discuss a pay raise with the immediate superior. The same goes for men.

I've seen people try to use a sweeping generalization that men work longer hours, are more likely to work unpaid/ over time hours, are sick less etc and I for one don't personally believe that, although I have seen it for my own eyes I've seen it stand for the male sex too.

No i believe its all down to negotiations, I can't blame anyone else if my male or female colleague get paid more than me for the same job because I agree the salary before I begin employment

Any thoughts?

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steddyeddy

Do people not agree that the soci-economic circumstances you're born into have more of an effect than your gender?

meeeeh

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

I've merely responded to your, frankly, outlandish claims about it somehow being sexism that women are less interested in politics (and I provided a source for that earlier) and the fact they earn less.

Where did I say that? What the hell talking about? As I said you don't make any sense.

PeterParker957

Tell me how wrote: »

Is this a thread about how the female winner of the tennis grand slam competitions get the same pay as the male even though they only play a maximum of 60% of the sets that the men play?

Just wondering before I join in...:rolleyes:

I've asked that before and never got an answer!!!!!

Tell me how

Is this a thread about how the female winner of the tennis grand slam competitions get the same pay as the male even though they only play a maximum of 60% of the sets that the men play?

Just wondering before I join in...:rolleyes:

mrkiscool2

meeeeh wrote: »

Even when I am clearly far superior to them?

Btw you are contributing some claims to me that I never made. And I was talking about western societies, there are huge differences among countries. That is not so much a matter of investment in the subject but something I would consider a matter of general knowledge. It is precisely the reason I don't seriously discuss gender pay gap , I don't know much about it and it seems you know even less.

Don't make assumptions, they make an ass out of you. How, precisely, do you know how much knowledge I have about the earnings gap (it's not a pay gap)? Can you read my mind through a forum? Again, I've not actually provided you with any knowledge I have about the earnings gap. I've merely responded to your, frankly, outlandish claims about it somehow being sexism that women are less interested in politics (and I provided a source for that earlier) and the fact they earn less.

And it was a claim, as you have not provided evidence to prove your assertion.

professore

This is totally based on my observations, and unscientific, but it seems to me that women in general just accept whatever "society" tells them to do and get on with it, whereas boys don't give a sh1t. In my opinion this is the nature of boys Vs girls. Nothing to do with socialisation.

There are huge efforts to get girls to play football and rugby and get into STEM and it has had very limited success.

I have yet to hear a successful man say that he had no interest in something and people convinced him into it - quite the opposite in many cases, where the family wanted him to do something entirely else. Same goes for successful women too. You will never be really good at anything if you constantly listen to others telling you you can't do it.

Do women really think men are encouraged and helped at every step? Apart from the 1% they are criticised at every turn and have to make their own path.

meeeeh

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Also, don't talk down to people. It makes you seem like a complete ass.

Even when I am clearly far superior to them?

Btw you are contributing some claims to me that I never made. And I was talking about western societies, there are huge differences among countries. That is not so much a matter of investment in the subject but something I would consider a matter of general knowledge. It is precisely the reason I don't seriously discuss gender pay gap , I don't know much about it and it seems you know even less.

Pac1Man

grogi wrote: »

I learned not to accept mediocrity.

Ah you ruined it. I set you up with a nice and easy lob and you never saw it.

mrkiscool2

meeeeh wrote: »

Actually that was the only coherent part of your post. I'm not entirely sure what exactly you were claiming in the first paragraph.

I am not really interested in discussing gender pay gap because it is a bit more complex subject depending on personal circumstances, economic situation, educational system and differences between countries and societies. It is certainly above the pay grade of this forum but it is one of those subjects that is always started by a special type of poster. Anyway if you expect me to take you seriously... No I have no intention to do that.

Btw just an advice, never have kids just because your partner wants them.

Or you simply don't understand a rational argument? Or your eyes are clouded by your ideology? But nah, can't be that, you're much too smart for that.

I also love the whole "Women are treated like crap" followed by "well, I don't want to discuss it because no-one here is smart enough for me to engage!". Always comes across as a good argument. And I actually don't care whether you take me seriously or not. Because, unlike you, I'm not emotionally invested in the argument. And I'm pretty sure when we talk about the "pay gap", we are referring to first-world countries, because obviously sexism is still a very ingrained thing in developing and poorer nations.

Also, don't talk down to people. It makes you seem like a complete ass.

meeeeh

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

Just because I don't want kids doesn't mean that my partner would feel the same. And if she really wanted one I'd be happy. So yeah, I would take a career break in that case.

But anyway, you can't even argue the real point I made. Because you are incapable of forming anything other than some imagined bias because you are convinced the world hates women.

Actually that was the only coherent part of your post. I'm not entirely sure what exactly you were claiming in the first paragraph.

I am not really interested in discussing gender pay gap because it is a bit more complex subject depending on personal circumstances, economic situation, educational system and differences between countries and societies. It is certainly above the pay grade of this forum but it is one of those subjects that is always started by a special type of poster. Anyway if you expect me to take you seriously... No I have no intention to do that.

Btw just an advice, never have kids just because your partner wants them.

grogi

Pac1Man wrote: »

I'll never be good enough for you.

I learned not to accept mediocrity.

Pac1Man

grogi wrote: »

Anything for this country? UK have a wide anti-discrimination laws - for instance Gender pay gap reporting requirements...

I'll never be good enough for you.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Aurora111 wrote: »

I just long to live in a country where I am equally represented in government.

Is it too much to ask for? For your gender to be respected in the area that makes all the decisions for the country that you live in?

What factors are preventing this from happening do you think?

We could also apply your logic to age, race or anything else for that matter.

mrkiscool2

meeeeh wrote: »

So you would take an imaginary career break to take care of the kids except you don't want kids so you won't. Good to know, your dedication to the cause is duly noted.

Just because I don't want kids doesn't mean that my partner would feel the same. And if she really wanted one I'd be happy. So yeah, I would take a career break in that case.

But anyway, you can't even argue the real point I made. Because you are incapable of forming anything other than some imagined bias because you are convinced the world hates women.

Sweetemotion

grogi wrote: »

Anything for this country? UK have a wide anti-discrimination laws - for instance Gender pay gap reporting requirements...

Minimum wage for one. Is it different for genders?

grogi

Pac1Man wrote: »

Oh go on, have three.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/young-women-outearn-men-as-gender-pay-gap-narrows-w6xnbh9pxdk

http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds

Anything for this country? UK have a wide anti-discrimination laws - for instance Gender pay gap reporting requirements...

DickSwiveller

There is a justified earnings gap. The dopes in the media have been lying about this issue for years.

meeeeh

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

When did someone say this? I frankly don't care if women are in politics or earn more than men. It's just the pervasive idea that women earn less/are less interested in politics, therefore sexism. It's a complete cop out and doesn't go with logic.

Are gender roles still a thing in society? Yes, but you find that men hate them just as much as women do. Like, I don't want kids but if I were to have them, I wouldn't expect my partner to stay at home and mind them. Sure, I'm going to be a teacher, makes more sense for me to take the career break.

So you would take an imaginary career break to take care of the kids except you don't want kids so you won't. Good to know, your dedication to the cause is duly noted.

Sweetemotion

mrkiscool2 wrote: »

When did someone say this? I frankly don't care if women are in politics or earn more than men. It's just the pervasive idea that women earn less/are less interested in politics, therefore sexism. It's a complete cop out and doesn't go with logic.

Are gender roles still a thing in society? Yes, but you find that men hate them just as much as women do. Like, I don't want kids but if I were to have them, I wouldn't expect my partner to stay at home and mind them. Sure, I'm going to be a teacher, makes more sense for me to take the career break.

I think what all this is about is.

Women want the company to pay for their choice of taking a career break and raising their children.

Pac1Man

grogi wrote: »

So you picked out a fact out of the thin air and had nothing to back it up?! Bravo...

Oh go on, have three.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/young-women-outearn-men-as-gender-pay-gap-narrows-w6xnbh9pxdk

http://fortune.com/2016/04/12/women-are-out-earning-men/

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/aug/29/women-in-20s-earn-more-men-same-age-study-finds

Prune Tracy

grogi wrote: »

Childless (selfish) women, like yourself

How "sisterly".

BrokenArrows wrote: »

it would also be totally unacceptable for men to stay at home without kids and not work while the woman is out working, but the reverse is totally acceptable for women. All of this leads to more pressure and motivation for men to succeed but women always know its ok for them to do nothing so have less motivation.

Always? I know it certainly isn't ok for me or any of my female colleagues or clients to do nothing. Some nice insults there too - men are the more reliable choice in the workplace... based on your prejudices like above.

But anyway, there may be a pay gap in terms of overall earnings (and the reasons why have been listed) but there isn't a pay rate gap - and this is what the gender pay gap is dishonestly presented as. It is illegal to pay someone less or more based on their sex, yet it's claimed this is going on all the time via the misrepresentation of what gender pay gap means.

mrkiscool2

meeeeh wrote: »

It amuses me how scared are some of women asking for more money or more political power. It was stated in this thread if you don't ask for it you don't get it. So what is the problem? Isn't that just the strategy that makes men more money and the one women are advised to use themselves more often.

When did someone say this? I frankly don't care if women are in politics or earn more than men. It's just the pervasive idea that women earn less/are less interested in politics, therefore sexism. It's a complete cop out and doesn't go with logic.

Are gender roles still a thing in society? Yes, but you find that men hate them just as much as women do. Like, I don't want kids but if I were to have them, I wouldn't expect my partner to stay at home and mind them. Sure, I'm going to be a teacher, makes more sense for me to take the career break.

meeeeh

It amuses me how scared are some of women asking for more money or more political power. It was stated in this thread if you don't ask for it you don't get it. So what is the problem? Isn't that just the strategy that makes men more money and the one women are advised to use themselves more often.

grogi

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Well then I can't you. I don't think anyone can.

So you picked out a fact out of the thin air and had nothing to back it up?! Bravo...

[Deleted User]

Aurora111 wrote: »

So there's never been any incident of Irish men keeping Irish women down in politics. Is that what you are sayig? That it's always been a level and free playing ground.

Nope. I'm sure there's been plenty of the old boys club going on in the past.

I think everything gives evidence to the opposite.

Any evidence within the last few years? How many women have run for office in the last few years?

I think Ireland was told to introduce a gender quota due to consistently low numbers of women being nominated by predominantly male parties.

Quota's are an insult to equality. Equality means competition. Forcing quota's just encourages the mistaken belief that women can't compete at the same level as men.

Do you just want to whitewash this out of recent history?

I'd love to see some evidence attached to your claims...

I'm definitely not a political person. I have very little interest in Irish politics. But the Irish media goes out of its way to highlight any degree of discrimination against women, so I'd expect that kind of stuff to be well promoted. Perhaps, I am incorrect. No problem. Provide some evidence, and I'll admit that I was wrong.

Sweetemotion

grogi wrote: »

I cannot find any source that shows that. The Morgan McKinley report for Ireland 2016 shows that at men earn consistently more, in all years-of-experience brackets, even 0-5 years.

https://www.morganmckinley.ie/sites/morganmckinley.ie/files/gender_pay_gap_in_ireland_2016.pdf

Well then I can't help you. I don't think anyone can.

The only thing keeping women down in this country are other women. Making them believe they are victims.

lifeandtimes

Aurora111 wrote: »

So there's never been any incident of Irish men keeping Irish women down in politics. Is that what you are sayig? That it's always been a level and free playing ground.

I think everything gives evidence to the opposite.
I think Ireland was told to introduce a gender quota due to consistently low numbers of women being nominated by predominantly male parties.

Do you just want to whitewash this out of recent history?

There are quite a lot of woman in politics and they arent kept down. Mary lou gave Leo a good scolding there a couple of months back live on telly.

The woman are there and in your area you just need to vote for then.

Also you can't bring a quota in if you claim there isn't enough women in the first place,that doesn't make sense

[Deleted User]

grogi wrote: »

So a woman cannot be biased?

You're missing the point. The majority of education for children/teens is already under the direct influence of women. I've been a teacher. and regardless of the actual curriculum, the teacher has enormous freedom to influence their students, and most do so.

Women who complain about social inequality tend to ignore that women have more direct influence over how children are raised than men. So, perhaps consider why women have been reinforcing those stereotypes?

I don't disagree. When it comes to salary gap - it is women that are hit.

Do you care to show an example when men are hit?!

Care to prove that women are definitely being discriminated by their gender and not because of the choices they've made in their personal lives and careers?

grogi wrote: »

No, we don't. It is a systemic discrimination (similar to systemic racism).

Ok. Prove it. The law gives equal opportunity to women, and this being a democracy, the voting habits of the population determine success, so logically, it suggests that not enough women are running for government or that the female population are not voting for them.

lazybones32

I think it exists but not because women are seen as inferior. The ESRI published some paper a few years ago, citing a 22% deficit in women's pay compared to men's. Same paper admitted they grouped all females together and tested that against all full-time males (not comparing like with like). Same paper also found that men were, on average, more productive; to the point that 5 females would be required to complete the same work as 4 males in the same time period. That justifies the gender pay gap imo. #equality

grogi

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Women under 30 earn more than men under 30.

I cannot find any source that shows that. The Morgan McKinley report for Ireland 2016 shows that at men earn consistently more, in all years-of-experience brackets, even 0-5 years.

https://www.morganmckinley.ie/sites/morganmckinley.ie/files/gender_pay_gap_in_ireland_2016.pdf