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Gender pay gap- real or just a result of bad negotiations?

lifeandtimes

I'm starting this thread separately from the other threads as they were for specific individuals and their pay.

I'd be of the mind set that the "gender pay gap" doesn't exists based purely on gender but more down to bad negotiations from employees and/or their agents.

An article in the indo today regarding a tv3 present who has left after 11 years blaming the gender pay gap as the reason why.

This person was happy with the figure agreed from the get go and is only having issue now as this is a hot topic.

Certainly if a woman is unhappy with their pay(which they agree to too begin with) she must discuss a pay raise with the immediate superior. The same goes for men.

I've seen people try to use a sweeping generalization that men work longer hours, are more likely to work unpaid/ over time hours, are sick less etc and I for one don't personally believe that, although I have seen it for my own eyes I've seen it stand for the male sex too.

No i believe its all down to negotiations, I can't blame anyone else if my male or female colleague get paid more than me for the same job because I agree the salary before I begin employment

Any thoughts?

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VinLieger

Aurora111 wrote: »

They actually use the trrm 'gender gap'.
Pay is only one thing that they have recorded there is a disparity between the genders.
Access to politics is another one( as well represented in our country, with the lovely male majority for the last 100 years). But wait, I'm sure it's just that women don't want to get into politics!

Again they don't specific if its like for like jobs as ive repeatedly pointed out to you, without that comparison any claimed gender pay gap is complete garbage as its simple statistics that women across the board choose to work more lower paying jobs than men.

Aurora111 wrote: »

Easy in showing your post to be sh#t I agree. It wasn't the most educated post was it?

Might want to calm down there pet

Aurora111 wrote: »

Sorry, who exactly is oppressing women? Which gender has committed every single one of the sexual abuse stories against women and men that have arisen in the media in the last month: men.
Men committed hundreds -thousands of sexual abuses.
They need to change.

Right...... easy to see where you are coming from, you burnt any bras today?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

There are a few things at play from what I've read on it over the years.

Maternity is the big one. Anyone who doesn't think that a woman being of an age and situation where she's likely to be out on maternity leave in the short to mid term affects her chances of getting roles is pretty naive. This also affects all us super cool not-like-the-other-girls girls who work hard and love the bants with the lads, btw :rolleyes: Changing the model from maternity leave to split parental leave will hopefully mitigate against that factor to some degree, but it'll take time.

Maternity aside, women do the majority of caring work - both upaid and low paid :pac: this is work that is necessary for a society to function and in many cases for the people who have the high paying jobs to do those jobs, but it's undervalued.

Confidence is another one, both in salary negotiations and in applying for roles or promotions. AFAIR men are likely to apply for roles if they meet about half of the qualifications or other terms, women won't unless they meet about 80 or 90%.

Men do the majority of dangerous and therefore highly compensated jobs - oil rigs and all that jazz.

Unconscious bias and the boys club factor probably still is a minor factor, these things don't change overnight or overdecade.

It certainly isn't as simple as "Here's a euro Sean, here's 86c Mary because that's how much I value you"; it's a far more nuanced and interesting debate than that, but it's still worth examining the factors that DO lead to it and what they might say about how society values the role of women and women's work within it.

lifeandtimes

Aurora111 wrote: »

Don't ever call me pet. Who do you think you are?

You'll never get a husband with an attitude like that now

Saruhashi

Aurora111 wrote: »

Sorry, who exactly is oppressing women? Which gender has committed every single one of the sexual abuse stories against women and men that have arisen in the media in the last month: men.
Men committed hundreds -thousands of sexual abuses.
They need to change.

Excuse me, I think you'll find that gender is a social construct.

Differences between the sexes are slim to none and so, you see, we are all equal. We are all human.

Humans have committed thousands of sexual abuses and you think you can avoid taking responsibility by blaming it on made up social constructs like "men"? Shame on you, I say.

Humans are oppressing other humans and you, as a human, are complicit in all these bad things.

So stop trying to blame "men" and take some responsibility for your species eh?

:cool:

professore

Aurora111 wrote: »

Sorry, who exactly is oppressing women? Which gender has committed every single one of the sexual abuse stories against women and men that have arisen in the media in the last month: men.
Men committed hundreds -thousands of sexual abuses.
They need to change.

Who raised all these men? Women. And women commit sexual abuse too, not as much as men, but not as insignificant as you might think. Lots of women sexually abusing kids in the news at the moment too.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

It's similar to the old trope about "why do men cheat" when in fact women cheat just as much as men.

[Deleted User]

Aurora111 wrote: »

Sorry, who exactly is oppressing women?

If oppression is actually occurring, then in all likelihood women are doing their fair share. Although, I'd love to see some proof of this oppression in the western world. We have changed the laws within the last three decades that place women on the same level as men, if not actually higher in many areas. Anti-discrimination laws are well founded, and our cultures/societies are changing to reflect those changes.

Feminists have repeatedly insulted women who chose (of their own free will) to follow traditional roles or those that do not fall in line with the 'approved' idea of what it is to be a woman. There's this horrible little trend of assigning all responsibility to men, and yet, there have been female-led organizations who fought women's rights in the past. Just as many women have no time for any of these claims, and will treat other women based on their skills/experience rather than their gender.

Which gender has committed every single one of the sexual abuse stories against women and men that have arisen in the media in the last month: men.

You're going to use the media as an example? Seriously? Perhaps look at some research on the area of sexual abuse, or physical abuse between sexual partners.

Here... I'll help you get started.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941364/

Men committed hundreds -thousands of sexual abuses.
They need to change.

Whilst Billions of other men have not.

Pat Mustard

Aurora111 wrote: »

Sorry, who exactly is oppressing women? Which gender has committed every single one of the sexual abuse stories against women and men that have arisen in the media in the last month: men.
Men committed hundreds -thousands of sexual abuses.
They need to change.

Collective responsibility, eh? Marvellous.

Tossing around ideas like that is safe enough from behind your keyboard but people don't accept those sorts of false accusations in real life.

You should be the one to implement this well-conceived idea. I dare you to stop random men in the street and tell them that they are responsible for sexual abuse.

It would be interesting to see what would happen. I'd imagine that it would become a police matter very quickly.

professore

Aurora111 wrote: »

Sorry, who exactly is oppressing women? Which gender has committed every single one of the sexual abuse stories against women and men that have arisen in the media in the last month: men.
Men committed hundreds -thousands of sexual abuses.
They need to change.

Why don't you blame all muslims for terrorism or all black people for crime in the US while you are at it?

[Deleted User]

Hugh Lemon Youth wrote: »

There are a few things at play from what I've read on it over the years.

Maternity is the big one. Anyone who doesn't think that a woman being of an age and situation where she's likely to be out on maternity leave in the short to mid term affects her chances of getting roles is pretty naive. This also affects all us super cool not-like-the-other-girls girls who work hard and love the bants with the lads, btw :rolleyes: Changing the model from maternity leave to split parental leave will hopefully mitigate against that factor to some degree, but it'll take time.

Agreed, although I doubt it will completely change. And it shouldn't. This focus on the genders and the "cost" of having children tends to ignore single people. Not everyone finds someone for marriage or even wants to get married/have children. For many single people, their career becomes their "child", and they focus most of their time on the work. It stands to reason that these people would be rewarded for that. People who have children (male or female) are unlikely to be able to compete with that dedication... they're already dedicated to their children.

Unconscious bias and the boys club factor probably still is a minor factor, these things don't change overnight or overdecade.

Exactly. And you'll find similar clubs in traditionally female-dominated jobs, although there is little pressure for them to open up for men to actually join them.

It certainly isn't as simple as "Here's a euro Sean, here's 86c Mary because that's how much I value you"; it's a far more nuanced and interesting debate than that, but it's still worth examining the factors that DO lead to it and what they might say about how society values the role of women and women's work within it.

There's plenty of research on the topic out there. It's just that people want a simple and very generalized answer. There can't be such a simple answer so people just gaff it.

Is there some discrimination out there towards women? Definitely. Is there some discrimination out there towards men? Definitely. But we have laws which ensure it's kept to a minimum.

Feminists don't want equality. They want women's rights. And they will always want more rights for women. And that's why this gender wage gap will keep being promoted regardless of the actual facts involved.

suicide_circus

Here's a question.

Do feminists want Affirmative Acton for women?

cantdecide

Aurora111 wrote: »

...with the lovely male majority for the last 100 years). But wait, I'm sure it's just that women don't want to get into politics!

Who keeps electing all these men? Because I was pretty sure women can vote these days too.

I presume a man can't represent the needs of his female constituents any more than a female can represent the needs to their male constituents?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed, although I doubt it will completely change. And it shouldn't. This focus on the genders and the "cost" of having children tends to ignore single people. Not everyone finds someone for marriage or even wants to get married/have children. For many single people, their career becomes their "child", and they focus most of their time on the work. It stands to reason that these people would be rewarded for that. People who have children (male or female) are unlikely to be able to compete with that dedication... they're already dedicated to their children.

My point isn't that there should be an equality of outcome for parents and those without children. It's that not only maternity leave but preempting the possibility of future maternity leave affects women's chances of getting certain roles, whether or not they have or plan to have children.

Exactly. And you'll find similar clubs in traditionally female-dominated jobs, although there is little pressure for them to open up for men to actually join them.

Go apply that pressure, if you care about it. Those jobs tend to be lower paid and lower status. Teaching and early childhood care is certainly one area where I think men should be facilitated and incentivised to have careers in, but again, even in a female dominated sector like that, more than 2/3 of principals are men. But what else would you consider traditionally female dominated jobs? Not seeing any absence of highly successful men working in fashion, nursing, HR, catering, hospitality and so on. I believe porn stars earn more if they're women though, yay, girl power.

There's plenty of research on the topic out there. It's just that people want a simple and very generalized answer. There can't be such a simple answer so people just gaff it.

Is there some discrimination out there towards women? Definitely. Is there some discrimination out there towards men? Definitely. But we have laws which ensure it's kept to a minimum.

Yeah I pretty much groan when people trot out the "x cents on the dollar" line as if that's all there is to it, it's amazing to me that people just take it at face value. But as I said, the more complex factors actually behind the gap still imply a more subtle form of bias against women on a societal level.

cantdecide

Hugh Lemon Youth wrote: »

Unconscious bias and the boys club factor probably still is a minor factor, these things don't change overnight or overdecade.

I agree with your post which was very fair and balanced and as much I believe there is a boys club problem (or more of a (similar-to-me bias) especially where we know that men of an age start to progress as women begin to have kids, there can also be a girls club problem. Shared parental leave will help alleviate this problem over time but there are long established cultural norms which won't go anywhere soon.

Speaking of unconscious bias, I worked in a backoffice admin outsourcing centre with a staff in excess of around 150 with a huge turnover rate. Two things I noticed in my 2.5 years there which showed unconscious bias - they would have the employee of the month award and no one could recall a winner that wasn't Irish despite the fact probably a third of the staff at all times would have been non-Irish. There was a month where many of us on the floor decided to speak up about this which lead to the account's first ever non-Irish winner.

The other one was that there were several 'expert' teams (basically people who had stuck around, accumulated knowledge and were charged with assisting noobs) and most of these teams were all-female, answering to all-female mid- management despite a fairly even gender split across the account. Many of the male advisors had given up applying for these promotions, myself included.

[Deleted User]

Hugh Lemon Youth wrote: »

My point isn't that there should be an equality of outcome for parents and those without children.

Agreed.

It's that not only maternity leave but preempting the possibility of future maternity leave affects women's chances of getting certain roles, whether or not they have or plan to have children.

It's always going to be a factor in the private sector where a company relies on profits to exist. Employers are going to look at employees and reward those who can commit to their careers more fully than those who can't. I'm not saying that it's fair but it's being realistic.

Go apply that pressure, if you care about it. Those jobs tend to be lower paid and lower status. Teaching and early childhood care is certainly one area where I think men should be facilitated and incentivised to have careers in, but again, even in a female dominated sector like that, more than 2/3 of principals are men.

I actually did try that before. I'm a qualified teacher with experience of teaching kindergarten from working abroad... and I tried to find work when I returned. No joy. Even from schools who were complaining about the lack of teachers available there is still a very strong pressure against hiring middle-aged male teachers to teach children in this country. But when you apply for jobs with no other candidates, get refused, and a woman is hired a few weeks later, it's not difficult to see how it is.

But what else would you consider traditionally female dominated jobs? Not seeing any absence of highly successful men working in fashion, nursing, HR, catering, hospitality and so on. I believe porn stars earn more if they're women though, yay, girl power.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/pink-collar-jobs-dominated-by-women-2015-2?r=US&IR=T

Yeah I pretty much groan when people trot out the "x cents on the dollar" line as if that's all there is to it, it's amazing to me that people just take it at face value. But as I said, the more complex factors actually behind the gap still imply a more subtle form of bias against women on a societal level.

Agreed some are... but society takes time to change. Simply passing a law isn't enough. Society will change as more women take up the opportunities provided, compete with men and reach those better positions on their own merits rather than seeking quotas or an easy boost to the top. As men see women working, being competitive as an equal and succeeding in their careers, the levels of sexism will likely drop dramatically.

But there's always going to be some friction. By both genders.

grogi

Pat Mustard wrote: »

You should be the one to implement this well-conceived idea. I dare you to stop random men in the street and tell them that they are responsible for sexual abuse.

Unfortunately most of the time they are. Not directly, but by accepting behaviour and jokes, that should not be accepted under any circumstances.

grogi

VinLieger wrote: »

Again they don't specific if its like for like jobs as ive repeatedly pointed out to you, without that comparison any claimed gender pay gap is complete garbage as its simple statistics that women across the board choose to work more lower paying jobs than men.

I've hinted that before, but it seems it needs to be put straight to the face...

The pay gap exists not only because women doing same job earn less (apparently they are earning the same, but I haven't seen any convincing data to support that claim either). Lack of opportunity for promotion is a form of sexual discrimination as well and as a result women are promoted less frequently.

What's more, there are stereotypes that influence the way woman and man are perceived. Woman do tend to thing less about them not because they are worse, but also because they are made to believe it. As a result they end up in less paid positions.

So it is not only about making sure that women earn as much as men today - that will be very hard to do. But making sure we are building society free of prejudice for next generation.

Women are not less capable of reading a map, despite women out in the world right now might be - mainly because they were raised to believe they can't.

[Deleted User]

grogi wrote: »

I've hinted that before, but it seems it needs to be put straight to the face...

The pay gap exists not only because women doing same job earn less (apparently they are earning the same, but I haven't seen any convincing data to support that claim either). Lack of opportunity for promotion is a form of sexual discrimination as well and as a result women are promoted less frequently.

What's more, there are stereotypes that influence the way woman and man are perceived. Woman do tend to thing less about them not because they are worse, but also because they are made to believe it. As a result they end up in less paid positions.

So it is not only about making sure that women earn as much as men today - that will be very hard to do. But making sure we are building society free of prejudice for next generation.

Women are not less capable of reading a map, despite women out in the world right now might be - mainly because they were raised to believe they can't.

Just seems like you're passing off all personal responsibility for personal choice, self-growth, mistakes etc off on to men and society.

Woman do tend to thing less about them not because they are worse, but also because they are made to believe it.

Made by whom?

_Dara_

BrokenArrows wrote: »

Society still sees it as strange for a man to be a stay at home husband to look after the kids and it would also be totally unacceptable for men to stay at home without kids and not work while the woman is out working, but the reverse is totally acceptable for women. All of this leads to more pressure and motivation for men to succeed but women always know its ok for them to do nothing so have less motivation.

I'd really dispute that it is always OK. It would not be seen as acceptable generally for a woman with NO children to sit on her hoop all day doing nothing. The term "ladies who lunch" is pejorative for a reason.

manonboard

Aurora111 wrote: »

It is attitudes like yours that lead to the pay gap. I wouldnt want to have more while someone else has less. I wouldnt want it have it all while someone else has none.

I am able to enjoy having things and someone else having these things also.
Try to learn to think of other people.

Is this not incorrect by your very likely current lifestyle?
I think its a noble sentiment, even though i do disagree with alot of your attitude in other posts in this thread.

However that aside. Ethically i think what you said in the quote above sounds good, but you practice the opposite just like all of us. We frequently desire things others dont have, and we frequently take them. You didnt give your education to someone else, you dont give all your money away until things are balanced. We all frequently give ourselves as much as we can until it crosses a line that we find ethically repulsive or self disadvantageous in another form.

In the situation above, our minds simply come up with some reason that justifies our gains to ourselves. We will tell ourselves we deserve this because of our educations, our hard work, our commitment, our finally our chance for a break, our good luck, our social network providing opportunities. Yet the vast majority of it was down to our privileges out of sheer dumb luck.

None of this is meant in any way offensively, I just wanted to disagree with what i see to be a lack of truth in your statement.

Aurora111

manonboard wrote: »

Is this not incorrect by your very likely current lifestyle?
I think its a noble sentiment, even though i do disagree with alot of your attitude in other posts in this thread.

However that aside. Ethically i think what you said in the quote above sounds good, but you practice the opposite just like all of us. We frequently desire things others dont have, and we frequently take them. You didnt give your education to someone else, you dont give all your money away until things are balanced. We all frequently give ourselves as much as we can until it crosses a line that we find ethically repulsive or self disadvantageous in another form.

In the situation above, our minds simply come up with some reason that justifies our gains to ourselves. We will tell ourselves we deserve this because of our educations, our hard work, our commitment, our finally our chance for a break, our good luck, our social network providing opportunities. Yet the vast majority of it was down to our privileges out of sheer dumb luck.

None of this is meant in any way offensively, I just wanted to disagree with what i see to be a lack of truth in your statement.

Yes I'm glad you asked.
It is easy to give an education away, to give money away. I have made a concerted effort in ny lifetime to help those poorer than myself.
Last week I brought soup out to the homeless in my town.
I have volunteered online for a worldwide charity that helps to bring education to young people in disadvantaged countries in Asia.
I have volunteered in an orphanage and raised awareness of the orphanage in the media back home.
I have also volunteered with impoverished children in a school in Sri Lanka.
And I volunteered with a different homeless charity when I was travelling in Europe.

It is quite easy for us in the richer countries to make time and effort for those with less than us. I am not 30 yet, and I am already thinking of all I want to do with tbe rest of my life, how many people I can help. I want to go to Vietnam with the Christina Noble foundation in my thirties.

steddyeddy

Whatever about the debate calling people "pet" isn't on. Patronising bullsh1t.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

Just seems like you're passing off all personal responsibility for personal choice, self-growth, mistakes etc off on to men and society.

Not at all. I am all for choice, but it should be based on equal ground. Right now, from the youngest age, we are teaching girls differently than boys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWu44AqF0iI

Women, when they grow up, are already programmed to think and decide differently than men. Not because they are genetically different, but because they were brought up differently, only because of their gender. That is one of the places where the inequality comes from.

Made by whom?

Society. Stereotypes. Education. Gender bias.

cantdecide

Aurora111 wrote: »

Yes I'm glad you asked.
It is easy to give an education away, to give money away. I have made a concerted effort in ny lifetime to help those poorer than myself.
Last week I brought soup out to the homeless in my town.
I have volunteered online for a worldwide charity that helps to bring education to young people in disadvantaged countries in Asia.
I have volunteered in an orphanage and raised awareness of the orphanage in the media back home.
I have also volunteered with impoverished children in a school in Sri Lanka.
And I volunteered with a different homeless charity when I was travelling in Europe.

It is quite easy for us in the richer countries to make time and effort for those with less than us. I am not 30 yet, and I am already thinking of all I want to do with tbe rest of my life, how many people I can help. I want to go to Vietnam with the Christina Noble foundation in my thirties.

All very laudable acts to be sure but I find it difficult to align this behaviour with someone who collectivizes and condemns manhood. Surely it occurs that you have come to the aid of the "sexual abusers who must change".

Aurora111

cantdecide wrote: »

All very laudable acts to be sure but I find it difficult to align this behaviour with someone who collectivizes and condemns manhood. Surely it occurs that you have come to the aid of the "sexual abusers who must change".

I don't condemn men, I condemn abusive men, and I was referring to he massive culture shift lately where hundreds of women have acused men of raping them . One look at the news today shows two american senators being accused of sexual assault. And I saw yesterday 300 women have accused a director of sexual assault. Yes these kinds of men certainly need to change.

But I think I won't say anymore on this issue as we will be going off topic.

Aurora111

grogi wrote: »

Not at all. I am all for choice, but it should be based on equal ground. Right now, from the youngest age, we are teaching girls differently than boys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWu44AqF0iI

Women, when they grow up, are already programmed to think and decide differently than men. Not because they are genetically different, but because they were brought up differently, only because of their gender. That is one of the places where the inequality comes from.

Society. Stereotypes. Education. Gender bias.

I definitely when I was a child and teenager thought I was worth less than a man. No, it was more that I knew I was the same worth as a man, but society didn't see it, at that time. I believe it is beginning to change now.

[Deleted User]

grogi wrote: »

Not at all. I am all for choice, but it should be based on equal ground. Right now, from the youngest age, we are teaching girls differently than boys.

There is an increasing majority of female teachers versus male teachers at all levels except university, and universities are under pressure to change that too. Children also typically spend more time with their mothers, than their fathers.

When are women going to take responsibility for the education and perceptions that they provide to children/teens etc? Instead, it's some kind of social plot run by men.

Women, when they grow up, are already programmed to think and decide differently than men. Not because they are genetically different, but because they were brought up differently, only because of their gender. That is one of the places where the inequality comes from.

Sure it is... but who is doing that programming? It's time that women start accepting that society and social constructs are generated as much by women as they are by men, and frankly, women probably have more direct influence over what girls are encouraged to believe than men.

And honestly, why do people think boys/men have it so much better?

Society. Stereotypes. Education. Gender bias.

Something that both genders are hit by.

Aurora111

Deleted User wrote: »

There is an increasing majority of female teachers versus male teachers at all levels except university, and universities are under pressure to change that too. Children also typically spend more time with their mothers, than their fathers.

When are women going to take responsibility for the education and perceptions that they provide to children/teens etc? Instead, it's some kind of social plot run by men.

Sure it is... but who is doing that programming? It's time that women start accepting that society and social constructs are generated as much by women as they are by men, and frankly, women probably have more direct influence over what girls are encouraged to believe than men.

And honestly, why do people think boys/men have it so much better?

Something that both genders are hit by.

I just long to live in a country where I am equally represented in government.

Is it too much to ask for? For your gender to be respected in the area that makes all the decisions for the country that you live in?

[Deleted User]

Aurora111 wrote: »

I just long to live in a country where I am equally represented in government.

Is it too much to ask for? For your gender to be respected in the area that makes all the decisions for the country that you live in?

You are annoyed that other women do not campaign for places in government?

That's not sexism or a lack of equality. That's a lack of women entering politics. We have equality of opportunity in the government. Encourage women to enter the political race, gather support and vote for your candidate.

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

There is an increasing majority of female teachers versus male teachers at all levels except university, and universities are under pressure to change that too. Children also typically spend more time with their mothers, than their fathers.

So a woman cannot be biased?

And honestly, why do people think boys/men have it so much better?

Not have. They are brought up to (as you pointed out by other women) to a different standard.

Something that both genders are hit by.

I don't disagree. When it comes to salary gap - it is women that are hit.

Do you care to show an example when men are hit?!

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

You are annoyed that other women do not campaign for places in government?

That's not sexism or a lack of equality. That's a lack of women entering politics. We have equality of opportunity in the government. Encourage women to enter the political race, gather support and vote for your candidate.

No, we don't. It is a systemic discrimination (similar to systemic racism).