The DUB Passport/Immigration Queue Thread

Few things:

Last night Aer Lingus has significant delays and ended up with a very significant number of flights in an hour starting around 22:00. Immigration didn’t delay the planes! The management of queues is nothing to do with Immigration.

Terminal 1 in the main immigration hall is a building site, simple.

In relation to the covers, firstly covers disguise the document type; they make the document bulky in a lot of cases and difficult to scan; and also the covers cause positioning issues within scanners

The questions piece is provided for in the law and passengers should understand what they are doing - crossing a border.

I won’t talk about details here but does anyone know what happened yesterday in Dublin Airport in terms of cases identified or detected?

I will give an example from today - someone arrived with another person in tow with them. The first person has previously travelled with drug mules. The impact: several hours of interviews and searches involving three Agencies. I’d rather officers spend their time on what they are meant to do rather than ensuring people are waved through.

Also, the Irish passport card is only valid for travel in certain instances and really is a gimmick.

To the poster who talks about only having problems with biometric Gates in Dublin, I smile, they must only get to fly every now and then as the pilot eGates have not been in use since the turn of the year and in some senses more importantly Gates across Europe are Passport only (except some deployments that allow their own ID cards - few of them though).

Terminal 1’s main hall is too small; the new corridor is too tight; 3 of the 9 desks are completely tucked away out of sight; the signs are broken; etc etc etc. The Immigration Service didn’t build the airport ... daa did!

JCX BXC

The Veteran wrote: »

Few things:

Last night Aer Lingus has significant delays and ended up with a very significant number of flights in an hour starting around 22:00. Immigration didn’t delay the planes! The management of queues is nothing to do with Immigration.

Between 21:20 and 22:20 EI had 11 scheduled flights, only 9 touched down within this period. Change the times and you don't get much different results, so I'd dispute this claim completely.

The Veteran wrote: »

Few things:
......

Terminal 1 in the main immigration hall is a building site, simple.

Indeed it is, but that shouldn't stop them opening all gates that are available. it's basic operations management principles to maximise capacity to control demand.

The Veteran wrote: »

I won’t talk about details here but does anyone know what happened yesterday in Dublin Airport in terms of cases identified or detected?

I will give an example from today - someone arrived with another person in tow with them. The first person has previously travelled with drug mules. The impact: several hours of interviews and searches involving three Agencies. I’d rather officers spend their time on what they are meant to do rather than ensuring people are waved through.

Indeed, when someone is suspected of law breaking they should be detained and questioned. But, I wonder if it was intelligence gleaned from passenger lists that led to the detention you mentioned or did the person fold under the withering interrogation of the immigration checkers asking where they arrived from?

The Veteran wrote: »

Also, the Irish passport card is only valid for travel in certain instances and really is a gimmick.

Not really, it's very handy in those countries where you have to surrender your passport in checking in to a hotel or in those countries where you are expected to carry official ID. I prefer to carry it and leave my full document in the hotel safe.

The Veteran wrote: »

To the poster who talks about only having problems with biometric Gates in Dublin, I smile, they must only get to fly every now and then as the pilot eGates have not been in use since the turn of the year and in some senses more importantly Gates across Europe are Passport only (except some deployments that allow their own ID cards - few of them though).

So we've issued biometric passports (and cards) but we seem, in my experience, to be the only country that doesn't have the gates? Yes, I can see why you are smiling.....that's a real "Irish" thing to do :rolleyes:

Passport card worked on the gates in VCE and MUC during the week. The only place I couldn't use it was DUB, and I didn't need to in CPH because there no queues so I just got waved through.

The Veteran wrote: »

Terminal 1’s main hall is too small; the new corridor is too tight; 3 of the 9 desks are completely tucked away out of sight; the signs are broken; etc etc etc. The Immigration Service didn’t build the airport ... daa did!

Indeed, now if only the DAA would employ some customer service people to actively organise and manage the queues to minimise passenger inconvenience......and if only the yellowpack immigration checkers were put into all available kiosks at times of high demand......you know? If the situation was managed?

Jawgap wrote: »

So we've issued biometric passports (and cards) but we seem, in my experience, to be the only country that doesn't have the gates? Yes, I can see why you are smiling.....that's a real "Irish" thing to do :rolleyes:

There are new gates being installed in T1 as we speak (that's what the works there are all about), and in T2 to follow, which will be fully compliant in this regard as I understand it.

The old gates that you're referring to were simply a trial and have been withdrawn.

Jawgap wrote: »

if only the yellowpack immigration checkers were put into all available kiosks at times of high demand......you know? If the situation was managed?

While I appreciate your frustration about the queue, and I'd be frustrated to, do you really have to resort to insulting staff who are simply doing their job by describing them as "yellowpack". I think that's frankly unnecessary, insulting and rather demeans your argument.

For the record I have no connection with INIS or DAA, but this isn't After Hours, and I don't see why you should feel the need to be that condescending about anyone doing their job.

They are professional immigration staff - I don't know what makes them "yellowpack" in your eyes, other than not being members of An Garda Siochana?

dudara

Negative_G wrote: »

I've never understood why people feel the need to use a "passport holder". What exactly does it do? Is it a fashion statement? I don't see what purpose it serves to be honest.

Because I travel nearly every week, and it's constantly in my handbag. Therefore, I want to protect it. My OH's passport is far newer than mine, is used far less than mine and is in far worse condition.

Why not take it out of its "holder" before the desk, hand it in, and put it back when you are through and avoid delaying yourself and other passengers?

Because it doesn't need to be removed for Dublin manual scanners. If you go through a manual scan in Schiphol, the immigration officers there won't remove it either. There even used to be signs in Dublin requesting removal from holders, which have since been taken down.

I do remove it when going through the automated machines in Schiphol etc. thats a no brainer and there are usually signs to that effect.

The Veteran wrote: »

Also, the Irish passport card is only valid for travel in certain instances and really is a gimmick.

It's valid for travel across the EU and Switzerland, and is much handier than carrying a full passport, particularly those of us for whom the vast majority of travel is within the EU (which I suspect is the majority of Irish people using the airport).

As someone who doesn't drive, it also means I now have a form of photo ID in my wallet.

I don't regard it as a gimmick at all - it is a very handy product, just a shame that the DFA turned it into a money making project by not making it valid for the entire term of a full passport.

LXFlyer wrote: »

While I appreciate your frustration about the queue, and I'd be frustrated to, do you really have to resort to insulting staff who are simply doing their job by describing them as "yellowpack". I think that's frankly unnecessary, insulting and rather demeans your argument.

For the record I have no connection with INIS or DAA, but this isn't After Hours, and I don't see why you should feel the need to be that condescending about anyone doing their job.

They are professional immigration staff - I don't know what makes them "yellowpack" in your eyes, other than not being members of An Garda Siochana?

What training do they undergo?

My understanding is that they are there to carry out rudimentary immigration checks. They are not a uniformed service is any sense of the word, and indeed I think the uniforms and badging are faintly ridiculous - whoever designed them watched one too many episodes of some US cop drama.

Secondly, I doubt their professionalism.....as I pointed out, standing around in a knot while the service your supposed to be providing is falling apart; strutting around like peacock; and flirting with someone you are supposed not to be even processing, smells like a service that is, at its heart, really just about being cheap and saving money.....hence my use of the word, "yellowpack" - as in something pretending to offer more quality than it actually does.

testicles

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Jawgap wrote: »

What training do they undergo?

My understanding is that they are there to carry out rudimentary immigration checks. They are not a uniformed service is any sense of the word, and indeed I think the uniforms and badging are faintly ridiculous - whoever designed them watched one too many episodes of some US cop drama.

Secondly, I doubt their professionalism.....as I pointed out, standing around in a knot while the service your supposed to be providing is falling apart; strutting around like peacock; and flirting with someone you are supposed not to be even processing, smells like a service that is, at its heart, really just about being cheap and saving money.....hence my use of the word, "yellowpack" - as in something pretending to offer more quality than it actually does.

Their job is to carry out the full spectrum of immigration checks at the airport, including interrogation, hardly rudimentary.

People were giving out that members of the Garda were carrying out this function, rather than civilian staff who would be more suited to it.

It has nothing to do with saving money but rather freeing up the gardai for frontline policing.

Frankly your posts sound very condescending about people who have an important job to do.

Stephen Strange

Jawgap wrote: »

What training do they undergo?

My understanding is that they are there to carry out rudimentary immigration checks. They are not a uniformed service is any sense of the word, and indeed I think the uniforms and badging are faintly ridiculous - whoever designed them watched one too many episodes of some US cop drama.

Quite frankly your "understanding" is just plain wrong and getting tiresome.

LXFlyer wrote: »

Their job is to carry out the full spectrum of immigration checks at the airport, including interrogation, hardly rudimentary.

People were giving out that members of the Garda were carrying out this function, rather than civilian staff who would be more suited to it.

It has nothing to do with saving money but rather freeing up the gardai for frontline policing.

Frankly your posts sound very condescending about people who have an important job to do.

Ok, for a start they don't do the full spectrum of checks, nor do they do "interrogations" (I doubt they're trained in the relevant cognitive techniques).....the role of the ICO is

• deciding on the granting of permission to individuals to enter the State and, where applicable, refusing entry;
• examining passports and identifying potentially forged documentation, conducting personal interviews with passengers – working through interpreters where necessary, and objectively evaluating the information presented;
• working in close co-operation with An Garda Síochána and other airport personnel and agencies;
• using relevant technology;
• other related functions as directed by the Border Management Unit of the Department’s Irish Naturalisation and Immigration Service (INIS) including general administrative work and report writing.

Second, it has everything to do with saving money which is why they are paid at the Clerical Officer scale (if the job wasn't clerical/administrative, then why pay them that scale.....

Clerical Officer Personal Pension Contribution (PPC) as of 01 January 2016

€419.29€447.97€455.27€469.48€490.46€511.39€532.33

€553.25€573.62€593.99€608.33€628.49€648.53€679.78
NMAX
€704.35€715.62

.....less than the Garda rate.

Stephen Strange wrote: »

Quite frankly your "understanding" is just plain wrong and getting tiresome.

......born out of frustration that it's a simple job that should be easier to do in a much more efficient fashion for the benefit of passengers.

As I said, nothing to stop

....the opening all available kiosks, even if others are out of commission

....quick pre-check by the DAA staff to ensure the people go to the right queue

....active management of the queues, especially to direct people to kiosks that may not be easily visible from the head of the queue

....asking more than the minimum questions

....redirecting non-EU passport holders to the correct queue if they some get past the pre-check rather than processing them.

It's not 'rocket surgery'

Yawn. The officers are appointed as Immigration Officers under the relevant statutory provision and receive allowances in excessive of the standard salary scales as well as having the full range of powers. There is close liaison with AGS (as the “federal” Irish police) but that is how practically every similar service in the world works.

There are other facts to draw on - how many people have been refused leave to land since INIS has been operating 24/7 and then compare it to when the other organisatiin carried out the checks. Ask any of the airlines about bogus document detection numbers “before and after”. There is a lot the public does not see not needs to see in order to go about their business.

The “strange thing” for some to grasp is that the challenges go up when passenger numbers reduce as flights are easier to book at short notice and cheaper. Similarly bank holiday weekends are just volume but a Tuesday\Wednesday afterwards tends to generate a lot of cases.

In terms of queue times quoted - ask daa customer experience for the queue times relevant to any day and I am sure they will share them. The data is collected and reported on so I’m sure if anyone interested asks daa for it they would give it.

With respect you had a frustrating time, but again there is no need to descend into insults about the staff.

You clearly must have missed the repeated calls by all politicians (and indeed a good portion of the public) for the removal of gardai from their immigration roles at the airport and their replacement by civilian staff, and the redeploying of those gardai to frontline roles. That was the primary driver behind the change.

Now if the salaries of these civilians is lower than that of a Garda who is trained to do far more duties, then that is a happy coincidence, but it doesn’t mean that the people doing this particular task are any less competent to do this role.

I think that you’ll find that the first two roles described in your quote above would corespond to what I was suggesting.

Frankly you could make your point far better without resorting to childish insults. It just makes you out to be a crank.

Point is, there were spare kiosks, there were spare INIS staff standing around and passengers were essentially being left to fend for themselves.

If all kiosks were open, even if there were insufficient numbers, then we'd could all have a good whinge at the DAA for not providing the facilities.

But when kiosks are not open and the INIS staff who are operating the open ones compound matters by doing their job unprofessionally it's going to annoy people......

.....and yes, I've zero problem slagging off people who are doing their job badly to the point of incompetence. If the ICOs concerned were working their socks off to get as many through as possible I'd happily laud them, but on this occasion they just came across as lead-swingers, more interested in having the craic with each other than actually doing their job.

Tenger

LXFlyer wrote: »

..........
Frankly you could make your point far better without resorting to childish insults. It just makes you out to be a crank.

This comment sums up my decision to jump in as a mod. Your personal frustration can be understood but your ability to post constructively is lacking.

I would agree that the DAA do need to improve channeling of incoming passengers, however ‘simple’ things like opening more booths increase staff costs. And “standing around chatting” happens in every workplace, a shift change could be happening.
So let’s try and stop the insults which in this situation are the equivalent of airline bashing.

goingnowhere

You also have to factor in as of November last year all passports and EU ID's are run against the Interpol (and Schengen SIS??) to see if they are of interest.

That has made the biggest difference as the old, wave of a passport and howya was enough to get past is gone

The per person processing time is still vastly faster in Dublin than in mainland Europe

Tenger wrote: »

This comment sums up my decision to jump in as a mod. Your personal frustration can be understood but your ability to post constructively is lacking.

I would agree that the DAA do need to improve channeling of incoming passengers, however ‘simple’ things like opening more booths increase staff costs. And “standing around chatting” happens in every workplace, a shift change could be happening.
So let’s try and stop the insults which in this situation are the equivalent of airline bashing.

I appreciate the warning and I'll stop the insults.

On the point of the shift change.....at the time I arrived there was at least a double-shift operating (day shift 1 and day shift 2) with the swing shift due to start at 1400.

I hit the back of the immigration queue at at about 13:40 and I could see the ICOs and there was no change in personnel for the 40 or so minutes it took to process.....so I'm assuming either the swing shift were somewhere else or the knot behind the kiosks were the swing shift?

And yes 'shooting the breeze' happens everywhere, but would anyone think it acceptable to be stood around when it was do busy?

TBH, I don't expect DUB to run very well and I knew I'd be queuing, but on this occasion the situation was below even the low standards that seem to characterise that aspect of the airport's operation.

goingnowhere wrote: »

You also have to factor in as of November last year all passports and EU ID's are run against the Interpol (and Schengen SIS??) to see if they are of interest.

That has made the biggest difference as the old, wave of a passport and howya was enough to get past is gone

The per person processing time is still vastly faster in Dublin than in mainland Europe

Fair enough - they have to scan the card/passport and wait for a response. The ICO to whom I presented myself did that then asked me about my flight as in where it had come from - again fair enough, maybe just wanted to see what passengers were coming through.

Then he asked me when had I arrived - again bit bizarre. I could understood if in answer to question #1 I'd said "London" and he wanted to clarify which airport/airline/flight but Treviso was the answer to question #1 so I was left wondering why.....

Then he asked me if I lived in Ireland? Again, I'd have understood if I'd travelled on my US passport but I'd presented my Irish passport card so I'm not sure what the relevance was.....

Finally he asked if was I travelling with anyone - again, relevance?

Then he studied the card in some detail before returning it - this was after the card had been scanned, and I'd answered the questions.

Now, if all the ICO on the 3 kiosks that were opened were doing that it was no wonder there was a delay.

.....and just for info, when I crossed into Schengen I got no questions, nor did I get any when I moved between the airports there.

As for the per person processing time being vastly faster in Dublin than in mainland Europe, just based on my own experience over the years I'd struggle to believe that - the only place I seem to run into long queues in immigration in the EU is DUB, and LHR and admittedly LHR is worse.

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More yawn! An Immigration Officer can ask questions, the reasoning being varied. If you were asked questions whilst the document was being examined it’s because the officer saw something or was looking out for something.

I myself entered the Schengen zone a couple of weeks ago and used an eGate. I am very familiar with them having worked on them; to say that the monitoring of the Gates was a joke is to put it mildly. The officer at one point left his desk and went to another desk completely out of line of sight of his screen. Silly! We’d be shot for it.

Also, the majority of false documents detected in dublin are coming off flights from the Schengen zone or at least transfer hubs in Schengen. Spanish, French and Italian airports being very prevalent. Now, if the required checks were done properly on exit we shouldn’t see these or any Interpol hits etc.

I will go back to an earlier post, look at any of the metrics that matter in terms of the control of a border (detections) and it will be seen clearly that more is detected now than before so “asking a few questions” and “standing around” clearly works.

The Veteran wrote: »

More yawn! An Immigration Officer can ask questions, the reasoning being varied. If you were asked questions whilst the document was being examined it’s because the officer saw something or was looking out for something.

I myself entered the Schengen zone a couple of weeks ago and used an eGate. I am very familiar with them having worked on them; to say that the monitoring of the Gates was a joke is to put it mildly. The officer at one point left his desk and went to another desk completely out of line of sight of his screen. Silly! We’d be shot for it.

Also, the majority of false documents detected in dublin are coming off flights from the Schengen zone or at least transfer hubs in Schengen. Spanish, French and Italian airports being very prevalent. Now, if the required checks were done properly on exit we shouldn’t see these or any Interpol hits etc.

I will go back to an earlier post, look at any of the metrics that matter in terms of the control of a border (detections) and it will be seen clearly that more is detected now than before so “asking a few questions” and “standing around” clearly works.

.....and where would one look at such metrics if they were so inclined?

Also, are you saying that the biometric passports and cards have already been compromised?

In my case my card was scanned before the ICO spent a good chunk of time examining it - if the technology on which the card is based has now been compromised what's the point? If the technology has not been compromised why spend time scrutinising it if the correct response has been obtained from the system.....

EDIT: btw, are detections up because a greater proportion of forgeries are being detected, or because there's just more coming through and the proportion has declined or remained static but the absolute number has just increased?

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L1011

Lufthansa in Frankfurt can be sufficiently thorough to delay boarding as multiple staff pick over a document

Jawgap - the authenticity of a document is one thing; it’s validity is then a separate issue and it’s use is a third element. Technology as it relates to document production assists with the first element but not greatly with the second two unless the examination is aided by further technologies and even then it doesn’t close matters fully.

Plus many EU document holders are facilitating others in seeking entry as well as themselves being interest.

Even then an Officer can ask questions which does not mean he or she has a specific suspicion.

Some airlines scrutinize documents more intensely than others, but there are ways around the checks including online check in, avoiding check in desks, using secondary airports, booking transit flights, etc

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The Veteran wrote: »

Jawgap - the authenticity of a document is one thing; it’s validity is then a separate issue and it’s use is a third element. Technology as it relates to document production assists with the first element but not greatly with the second two unless the examination is aided by further technologies and even then it doesn’t close matters fully.

Plus many EU document holders are facilitating others in seeking entry as well as themselves being interest.

Even then an Officer can ask questions which does not mean he or she has a specific suspicion.

Some airlines scrutinize documents more intensely than others, but there are ways around the checks including online check in, avoiding check in desks, using secondary airports, booking transit flights, etc

......all of which sounds like a pretty long winded way of saying you don't know the answers to my questions?

I'm guessing (and it's only guessing) that the scan of the card confirmed its authenticity and validity, and it's use was already verified by the exit check at Treviso and the minimal airline check.......and anyway if the ICO wanted to verify correct use then surely at the very least he should've asked for my boarding pass rather than accept a verbal response.....are ICOs not trained in relation to the key investigative principles of corroboration and triangulation? Or asking cognitive or even Reid-type questions?

EDIT: out of interest, how could I, with a biometric passport card facilitate anyone else? I can't pass it to anyone? And I take it I can only put kids on my full 'book' passport?