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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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ooter

tomred1N wrote: »

Was at a S&C talk for runners recently . The instructor a runner himself said age was not really a factor in endurance running. Obviously it is if u have been running at a high level all your life but for the rest of us on here its not an issue if you train smart and listen to your body is telling you. ( and keep away from 800M races ) . You need to keep running though !

He also said if you have never done S&C specific to running and did it consistently for 6 months you'd be almost guaranteed to see big improvements. I know two lads who do this S&C stuff religiously are aged 48 -49 and can run sub 2:40 only having only gone sub 3 a few years ago.

I'll hold off on it a while though so I'll have something to fall back on as I get older :pac:

Did the instructor give any examples of the S&C specifics to do tom?

rooneyjm

tomred1N wrote: »

Was at a S&C talk for runners recently . The instructor a runner himself said age was not really a factor in endurance running. Obviously it is if u have been running at a high level all your life but for the rest of us on here its not an issue if you train smart and listen to your body is telling you. ( and keep away from 800M races ) . You need to keep running though !

He also said if you have never done S&C specific to running and did it consistently for 6 months you'd be almost guaranteed to see big improvements. I know two lads who do this S&C stuff religiously are aged 48 -49 and can run sub 2:40 only having only gone sub 3 a few years ago.

I'll hold off on it a while though so I'll have something to fall back on as I get older :pac:

Not exactly impartial advice. Come to my S&C class you’ll knock loads of time off your pb.
In saying that it I’d say it would help. Where did he/she advise you place such a session in the week

tomred1N

ooter wrote: »

Did the instructor give any examples of the S&C specifics to do tom?

He did but I'm unable to explain here in words . I may get a link that I can pass on here soon

tomred1N

rooneyjm wrote: »

Not exactly impartial advice. Come to my S&C class you’ll knock loads of time off your pb.
In saying that it I’d say it would help. Where did he/she advise you place such a session in the week

As impartial as you could get. Given a home workout to complete . Only cost might be to invest in a rubber band. Try to Fit in in your schedule 2 weekly when you can and when it suits but not at the expense of cutting back on running. Nothing replaces miles, sessions , long runs for 26.2 , not even paying for impartial advice !

Testosterscone

tomred1N wrote: »

As impartial as you could get. Given a home workout to complete . Only cost might be to invest in a rubber band. Try to Fit in in your schedule 2 weekly when you can and when it suits but not at the expense of cutting back on running. Nothing replaces miles, sessions , long runs for 26.2 , not even paying for impartial advice !

Glad to see this added. I have personally scaled back and simplified my own current S and C plan for the main reasons;

1) by keeping simply I am consistent, doing 10-15 min before I go to bed
2) getting to the gym at the moment would mean losing about 10-15 miles a week so adding to the training I am doing rather than replacing it

Kept it simple; Push ups, Body weight Squats and Single Leg deadlifts (simple compound movements which incorporate as many muscles as possible

Progression is as follows; Nightly adding 5 reps a week, once I hit 30 next progression is to drop to 15 and add another set.

Will add more later but for the next few months these along with miles and hills should have me quite strong.

Find what ever works for you I know Krusty used to do a good bit of bouldering/ rock climbing. Doesn't always have to be hyper technical just something that works alot of muscle groups without trashing your legs will add to overall strength.

RayCun

I do the morning (kids will change you!

)
Foam roll, calf raises, lunges, squats, press ups, and single leg deadlifts. 10 to 20 minutes, depending on how awake I am

Gym has been on and off, more on than off from this week, I hope

Swashbuckler

RayCun wrote:

I do the morning (kids will change you! ) Foam roll, calf raises, lunges, squats, press ups, and single leg deadlifts. 10 to 20 minutes, depending on how awake I am Gym has been on and off, more on than off from this week, I hope

Can I ask what benefit upper body training like pressups has? I think I saw triceps dips as another one recommended recently.

Also do the leg exercises not tire the legs for next days running?

ooter

I do dips, pull ups, squats, deadlifts, push ups, presses a couple of times a week. Fairly light weights, 10/12.5/15 kg dumbbells. Used to do lunges also but found them very harsh on my hamstrings.
Been doing it about 6 months now, definitely feel stronger but can't say it has improved my running, I find it good for injury prevention more than anything else.

kerrylad1

I used to do the gym 2/3 times aweek,before my son was born.2 and half years later,no gym,and I seem to be always carrying a knock.I think strength and conditioning should play a part in ur training,if you have the time.

rooneyjm

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Can I ask what benefit upper body training like pressups has? I think I saw triceps dips as another one recommended recently.

Also do the leg exercises not tire the legs for next days running?

If you are doing press ups correctly then they will improve your core strength along with triceps, back and pecs. No one ever went sub 3 because they had killer triceps but it’s the core work that will help. If your core goes you end up like a banana, bent over, stride shortens, game over.
I do some core (plank mostly)and press ups occasionally post run with some basic stretching. I was interested in the position of the S&C session, before run, after. I assume not on the same day before Intervals or tempo work.

El Caballo

rooneyjm wrote: »

I was interested in the position of the S&C session, before run, after. I assume not on the same day before Intervals or tempo work.

According to David McHenry who was the head strength and conditioning coach for Mo Farah and Rupp to name a few. The ideal for a lifting session is on the same days as workouts like intervals and tempos and after the run. The idea lives by the motto of Hard days hard and easy days easy. If you are doing a strength work on easy days, it interferes with your recovery from the speed workouts so it is better to keep recovery days as full recovery days and intense days as intense days.

That is the optimal of course and not everyone is a full time athlete and this is probably more geared towards heavy lifting than a short few movement exercises but that's the jist of what the top guys are doing these days.

Testosterscone

Funny enough I got an email today regarding a core course

Hi Luke,

There is a lot of confusion out there about core work. And a ton of just plain bad information that can actually make core training programs harmful.

That’s why I am excited to announce that Coach Mike Boyle released his comprehensive course, Complete Core.

Mike's is absolutely one of the top trainers in the world and a go-to guy for other top professionals in the training and rehab industries.

Coach Boyle takes you through his latest methods and proven conditioning protocols and breaks down this often times confusing topic. Complete Core dives deep into the training needs of athletes and lays out his blueprint for developing an optimal core training program.

With Complete Core, Mike Boyle addresses...

- When and how to train the core
- The role of the core (and real-world anatomy)
- How breathing is involved and affects the core
- What to avoid
- Developmental progressions and regressions
- Exact exercises to use

If you want to get results and improve performance, you need to do your core work with a purpose.

Grab Complete Core now and save $50

(Website is a bit flashy an attention grabbing but the email was from a reliable source who I would usually pay attention to in regards recommendations)

Might be up some people's alley

Itziger

Testosterscone wrote: »

Funny enough I got an email today regarding a core course

(Website is a bit flashy an attention grabbing but the email was from a reliable source who I would usually pay attention to in regards recommendations)

Might be up some people's alley

Very interesting, Luke.

50$ would buy me a nice bottle of red wine though, so I think I'll pass.

davedanon

Itziger wrote: »

Very interesting, Luke.

50$ would buy me a nice bottle of red wine though, so I think I'll pass.

Or 2 or 3 bottles of almost-as-good-you'd-hardly-taste-the-difference red wine. Just a thought.

Djoucer

Any want to share their 20 min S and C?

Be great to see what people's workout looks like, at home v fitness.

I wouldn't have a clue what to do it the gym. At home, I'd have resistance band and do various lunges/clams etc

rooneyjm

Djoucer wrote: »

Any want to share their 20 min S and C?

Be great to see what people's workout looks like, at home v fitness.

I wouldn't have a clue what to do it the gym. At home, I'd have resistance band and do various lunges/clams etc

“The Run Experience” have a load of free basic S&C exercises with explanations of how to perform them. Get them on FB or YouTube. Ultimately they are trying to get you into some sort of plan but the stick to the free stuff

ooter

Djoucer wrote: »

Any want to share their 20 min S and C?

Be great to see what people's workout looks like, at home v fitness.

I wouldn't have a clue what to do it the gym. At home, I'd have resistance band and do various lunges/clams etc

Wouldn't have much of a clue myself but I do this twice a week, probably takes about 40 mins.
3 sets of
5 X dumbbell squats
5 X dumbbell deadlifts
5 X pull ups
5 X dips
5 X single leg dumbbell deadlifts
5 X push ups
5 X tricep dips
5 X dumbbell arm rows (each arm)
20 X dumbbell seated twists
5 X dumbbell bench press
5 X standing dumbbell press.
Sometimes I use the same light/medium/heavy weight for all 3 sets, other times I'll do 1 set light, 1 set medium, 1 set heavier.

squinn2912

Spent some time reading through this thread and the sub 2:50 thread and there really is a wealth of knowledge available on here. Well done to all of the super runners who are contributing to these threads and sharing their wisdom and training techniques.
For what it's worth I've decided to go back to my last programme and make some marginal changes. My aim was sub 3 and I ran 2:58 feeling minimal strain until the final three miles. I'll make some changes to try to run harder during the later stages of my medium and longer runs. I was tempted to make wholesale changes to what I've done before but as I consider things I don't believe that would be wise. It worked and my body handled it. I will use some of the advice that you guys gave me to augment my programme.
It will comprise of 3 key sessions - a tempo run at around half marathon pace, an interval session and the long run which will vary in pace. I plan to add some miles to my easier days to bring me from 40-50 mpw to 60-65. My longer term aim is to give the sub 2:50 a go, possibly in DCM 2018, with a spring marathon targeting 2:55. I think that would be 6 seconds per mile improvement.
I intend to select some half marathon races in early spring to gauge progress.
I'll sit down after my spring marathon and assess how the added mileage has worked for me. I can't wait to get going on it!

El Caballo

Guess it's around that time of the year;)

I'm personally going to have another throw of the dice this spring in Limerick. I can't help but get drawn back in as there's a big sense of unfinished business with the marathon. It's 18 weeks from today and this time I feel that the sub-3 isn't so much of a pipe dream anymore but a realistic possibility if I put the training in. I'm starting this cycle with about the same mileage that I've had as a peak mileage week from any other Marathon cycle and coming into it with PB fitness as opposed from scratch like I have in the past which is a huge boost.

Training will be relatively simple as I'm in a longer term approach with the focus being on building volume before getting too specific so the basis of my training will mainly be based around a lot of easy mileage with a short threshold or aerobic tempo workout. It's not the ideal for peaking in 18 weeks but is something I feel will pay off in spades in the long term and I believe will still bring me loads in the short term as well as it means I can be more consistent. PB's are:

1500m: 5:01 (June 2015)
5k: 18:34 (Oct 2017)
10k: 39:46 (July 2014)
Half: 1:25:43 (Dec 2017)
Mar: 3:15:29 (Oct 2013)

That PB has stood for too long and one of the lads has said the night out is on him if I break 3 so I can't resist:pac:. As always, the goal first and foremost is to run a good race and something I'll access as the training progresses and hopefully if all goes well, I'll line up in shape get under 3 on the day:)

Any one else having a crack this year and what your plans?

healy1835

El Caballo wrote: »

Any one else having a crack this year and what your plans?

Yeah on the Sub 3 train for Rotterdam. Week 1 of 14 in the bag

I'm fitter, lighter and faster than I've ever been so I'm hoping to pull it off. It's gonna be my first crack at sub 3. Doing Trim 10 Miler and Bohermeen Half as warm up races. Hoping to take a good chunk off my PB's (65:55 & 1:25:52) in those two races if all goes to plan

squinn2912

What is the limerick course like? I want to attempt a sub3 in may/June. Got word newry may not happen so looking for a plan B

OOnegative

squinn2912 wrote: »

What is the limerick course like? I want to attempt a sub3 in may/June. Got word newry may not happen so looking for a plan B

I ran Newry in 2010 and remember the 1st Half being very undulating. Not sure if they run the same course but if they do Limerick is flatter but has a bite in the tail from miles 22-25 around the Gaelic Grounds. I thought it was a great marathon last year apart from not getting the time I wanted.

noelearly

squinn2912 wrote: »

What is the limerick course like? I want to attempt a sub3 in may/June. Got word newry may not happen so looking for a plan B

Cork??

squinn2912

What's the course like?

El Caballo

OOnegative wrote: »

I ran Newry in 2010 and remember the 1st Half being very undulating. Not sure if they run the same course but if they do Limerick is flatter but has a bite in the tail from miles 22-25 around the Gaelic Grounds. I thought it was a great marathon last year apart from not getting the time I wanted.

They've changed the last few miles this year which should make it faster. It won't go through thomond estate anymore but will run in reverse taking out those hills through the houses. Finish will be a 2 mile blast down the ennis road back into the city. Less than a 150m of elevation change for the whole route now which should make it fastish.

Nevermind, the change was made for last year too

OOnegative

El Caballo wrote: »

They've changed the last few miles this year which should make it faster. It won't go through thomond estate anymore but will run in reverse taking out those hills through the houses. Finish will be a 2 mile blast down the ennis road back into the city. Less than a 150m of elevation change for the whole route now which should make it fastish.

Year to fecking late!!!

noelearly

squinn2912 wrote: »

What's the course like?

Changed it last year for the second half. It was the first marathon I did in 2015. I thought it was on par with Dublin difficulty wise, Itzinger would be better judge than me, he broke 3 hrs there last year.

El Caballo

OOnegative wrote: »

Year to fecking late!!!

My bad, they changed it last year so same route as you done. Didn't do any distance last year so didn't realise. Still should be a lot easier than it was before last year.

squinn2912

Thanks for the information guys. Newry has changed and changed back over the last 3 years. Hilly on the way out and then home 14 is flat but very boring and no support

OOnegative

squinn2912 wrote: »

Thanks for the information guys. Newry has changed and changed back over the last 3 years. Hilly on the way out and then home 14 is flat but very boring and no support

Great support in Limerick to be honest, only thing I could fault it in anyway was we caught the half marathon at one stage and it took a few miles to get through them but we did. Small gripe but overall a great Marathon with plenty of support.