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Compulsory HCAP - Cancelled

Grizzly 45

Picked this up on an FB page from a local group of Munster deer hunters.So treat this as TOTALLY UNCONFIRMED..

As we know the newbies applying for a deer license for Jan 2018 season, will be required to do the HCAP or similar to be considered for a deer hunting license, and the rest of us will apparently have to do the HCAP within a fixed date within the next five years or so.This will be decided apparently by some sort of lottery system applied by NPWS. Don't do the HCAP within a certain timeframe, no deer hunting license for you lad/lady!

Considering this is coming from a state body that has been caught out on makey up law on things like; No Semi-autos are legal for deer hunting, You need 100 acres plus for a license, and .223 is perfectly legal for deer hunting here... You gotta ask is this legit or even plausible.The lad who posted this "claims" to have written an email to the dept and was informed that it's the ministers intent and will to follow this thru on a recommendation of the deer interest groups.:(: mad:

So , has anyone had this blip on their radar ?Or anything of the like? Can we get confirmation or denial of hostile intent?Going by my experience this year, I'd say the hostile intent is very possible, if not plausible.And if so, can we mount a campagin against this before January?

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Walter Mittys Brother

Be easy enough to compete with HCAP sure all you'd have to do is duplicate exactly what they're doing, call it something else & get NPWS to agree it's the same thing. Then no monopoly and price competition...........?????????

solarwinds

You would imagine the ranges could offer the course for a lot less than €150-00. They have no range rental to pay for and the club house is your class room, so no need to hire expensive hotel function rooms. Just pay a lad or two to run the course and get external accreditation.

Sparks

ezra_ wrote: »

IANAL, however, wasn't the issue with the suppressors to do with the fact that the guards have a procedure to follow when evaluating an application, and weren't doing it. They were in effect altering the legislation which is a breach of powers.

Ministers are able to alter legislation, within the parameters as set by bill through an SI, effectively if the change is 'administrative' an SI will suffice. If not, it has to go through the Dail.

But to the main point - changes (such as blanket bans) HAVE to come from the Minister. The guards have to follow what is passed/SI'd.

IIRC, the precedent came from Dunne-v-Donohue in the shooting world originally (but it is a much wider principle); that case was over a prerequisite of a gun safe being installed before a licence was granted being applied by a superintendent on the written instructions of an assistant commissioner, and the finding was specifically that such changes need to come from the Oireachtas, not just the Minister unless it's exercising a specific power set forth in the Act already. Nobody else - not AGS, not the DoJ, not the Minister and not the Courts can bring about a blanket ban that isn't provided for in the law already, they just don't have the legal authority to do so.

That being said, quite a lot is already allowed for in the Act, so it's not as clear-cut and copper-fastened as you'd think.

meathstevie

Had to grin at Grizzly's list of HCAP q&a's and the question relating to whom you have to show your licence when asked. A Coilte representative ? On Coilte lands that would indeed be correct but on all other land the Coilte representative has zero authority to ask anyone for anything.

If that post was a correct reflection of what's being put out there the person in charge of that manual may start editing to make sure the question and answers are a correct reflection of fact.

Vizzy

meathstevie wrote: »

Had to grin at Grizzly's list of HCAP q&a's and the question relating to whom you have to show your licence when asked. A Coilte representative ? On Coilte lands that would indeed be correct but on all other land the Coilte representative has zero authority to ask anyone for anything.

If that post was a correct reflection of what's being put out there the person in charge of that manual may start editing to make sure the question and answers are a correct reflection of fact.[/QUOTE

Given that the HCAP only applies to Coillte land, then the question and the answer are correct.
Outside of Coillte land you can tell the Coillte official that your name is Donald Duck for all the difference it will make.

meathstevie

Vizzy, that's exactly the point. If you want to make something compulsory for the whole country you should at least be competent enough to edit out your limited private interests.

There's no legislation that mentions a "Coilte representative" when it comes to hunting or being on land with a firearm, landowners or their agent/representative on the other hand ...

Grizzly 45

HCAP manual review by moi...Please feel free to add as to what sort of outdated and incorrect info you can find in it.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103398159

Vizzy

meathstevie wrote: »

Vizzy, that's exactly the point. If you want to make something compulsory for the whole country you should at least be competent enough to edit out your limited private interests.

There's no legislation that mentions a "Coilte representative" when it comes to hunting or being on land with a firearm, landowners or their agent/representative on the other hand ...

My point is simply this,
If I go out tomorrow (having my HCAP cert or whatever in my pocket) in a Coillte forest I must comply with the current
HCAP requirements.
If the HCAP is to become compulsory for all land, then they need to change the manual, but as it isn't compulsory yet you can only comply with what is there presently and I think that the "answers" that Grizzly quoted were put up by cookimonster earlier this year when the proposed changes weren't even being considered.
I'm not for one second condoning the compulsory implementation of HCAP, just saying that the list of answers is currently correct.

Grizzly 45

SAMPLE HCAP QUESTIONS

20. The current standard Coillte licence /permit allows you to stalk deer between what hours of each day?
a. From dawn until 11.00hrs (am)

Utterly irrelevant question, if this is coming out of the Coilte lets.

52 If you only intend to shoot one deer, how much ammunition should you carry whilst stalking?
a. One round loaded in the rifle, more than one in the magazine and some spare in a pocket

Nope,you can stick a 100 drum on your rifle and hump a ruck sack full of ammo if you want.There is no limit to be carried when stalking.Spare rounds in your pocket??PLEEEASE!! Damaged bullet tips anyone??

63. You are offered some ammunition hand loaded by a friend which he finds performs well in his rifle. What should you do?
a. Test the ammunition when you next go to the range

WTF!!! Seriously?? So when that slightly hot round your buddy messed up because the cat ran over his reloading bench detonates your gun and you are wearing your bolt in your forehead...Who is responsible? Plus WTF is he doing in the ROI reloading hunting ammo???

32. When should the bolt be removed from the rifle whilst stored in the home
a. All the time to avoid its use by an unauthorised person e.g. child/thief

Err..Why do we have expensive gun strong boxes then?It is good practise, but not a mandatory requirement.

164. Carrying a rifle with the firing pin resting on a chambered round is
a. Always dangerous and is an unacceptable practice

That would suggest you rifle is faulty first off if you were to get a discharge under those circumstances, and in a safe,well-maintained gun with the safety on, is no problem at all.And if you are also that paranoid, you can leave the bolt handle in the UP position.The bolt isn't cocked in that state.

182. At what distance can Red deer detect a human wind-borne scent?
a. Over a mile under certain conditions.

183. If you smoke a cigarette while out stalking
a. The smoke will have no effect on the stalk and it can show you wind direction

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Just.Plain.WRONG!
Taking into consideration the previous question....So I guess the whole de -scent soap and sprays that hunters use, or keeping your stalking clothes outside and sealed in airtight bags in the offseason, or that thousands invested in "stealth hunting clothing" and such is just a marketing gimmick, backed up by no scientific fact? That deer who survive by sight, sound and smell are not bothered by tobacco smoke??Maybe our Irish deer are different?:rolleyes:

It's this kind of nonsense in the manual that gives me serious doubts about the expertise and knowledge, even basic knowledge of the reloaded ammo question and Irish firearms law on the whole project and the people teaching this.

meathstevie

In fairness Grizzly I think the reds on my permission don't give a rats about cigarette smoke. I was sitting in the edge of the forestry having a smoke during late summer waiting for a bit of pigeon action in the adjacent wheat field and out walked a doe and calf.

badaj0z

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Did anyone do or remember a course run by the Irish Deer Society called the Deer management and Hunters training course? Which had a written and practical marksmanship course?I was kindly sent via FB a picture of the very nice certificate and signed off on June 22nd, 2003 by a Liam Mc Garry [Cheif Examiner]Held in the Grandville hotel in Waterford.One day classroom and range test the next day

Now the interesting thing is the person that did this course was assured that this was going to be the be and end all in Irish certification, and this would be the only certification needed and recognised as the exact same crowd now running HCAP were running this and they were in "talks" with Coilte...
Now they are back again, with HCAP and looking for money again and as they say themselves HCAP is the only recognizable course that NPWS/Coilte will accept... So is this the "other qualification" they will accept?

Looks more and more like a money spinner, and contrary to IDS claim that most people on social media agree with their position, there are more posts with a letter "F"[meaning Farce or Fail] than pro comments on this matter.Even the pro comments, when people explain this gig, change their opinions pretty quickly.
Also,as everyone is saying unless you were involved with the deer societies and were on this wild deer forum, no one heard on the individual stalker level about this until the new license applications were issued this season... Even NARGC ,who are supposed to be on this committee.As even the fellah in charge of stalking affairs, was kind of surprised to hear about this...When I rang him in Mid July.

Note the date on this certificate and the 39 years of experience since. Maybe I should examine the examiners before passing them as capable of running a qualification programme.I suspect that I will have to do the HCAP too.

EBjuT6r.jpg?2

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

That being said, quite a lot is already allowed for in the Act, so it's not as clear-cut and copper-fastened as you'd think.

Without the need for actual legal advice or direction and without having you read and interpret the entire act do you see anything relating to this exact topic and the specific piece of legislation that would allow for such a mandatory course in the format they are saying is now legally compulsory?

Bg question and i understand if you don't want to nail your flag to a certain post, but can they simply make the hcap mandatory (legally) and going by what they [the deer alliance] said there is no need for legislative (primary or secondary) change to make it happen.

Again all in respect to the hcap.

Grizzly 45

meathstevie wrote: »

In fairness Grizzly I think the reds on my permission don't give a rats about cigarette smoke. I was sitting in the edge of the forestry having a smoke during late summer waiting for a bit of pigeon action in the adjacent wheat field and out walked a doe and calf.

Like I said, Irish deer..;)but seriously, deer have an incredible sense of smell, and will vacate an area if they associate a smell with humans. If we can smell nicotine addicts ourselves as humans..We must positively reek to dogs and deer.

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Like I said, Irish deer..;)but seriously, deer have an incredible sense of smell, and will vacate an area if they associate a smell with humans. If we can smell nicotine addicts ourselves as humans..We must positively reek to dogs and deer.

You only need to look at the nasal cavity in a deer skull to realise that. Some serious amount of space for air circulation and receptor cells in there. In my case I reckon it could be that they're just not too bothered with it since they're no more than a few hundred metres away from houses or farm yards most of the time.

grassroot1

I see there is an article in the Farmers Journal today about the need to have this training course done or no deer licence.

meathstevie

grassroot1 wrote: »

I see there is an article in the Farmers Journal today about the need to have this training course done or no deer licence.

The pr mill is steadily grinding so. Personally I don't think the average farmer could give a fiddlers fart if you've done the HCAP or not. They're bound to care a lot more about their crops and fences and the fact that you're a safe shot who'll leave the area tidy after the hunt.

Grizzly 45

Was sent this a while ago.Dunno how much relevance it has to this situation but anyway.

RE: Irish Constitution - Article 45.2.3.
That, especially, the operation of free competition shall not be allowed so to develop as to result in the concentration of
the ownership or control of essential commodities in a few individuals to the common detriment.
.
(in other words, the state CANNOT create a situation where a private company can profit where "common detriment" (the rights of the people) are attacked, undermined or destroyed.)

In other news.Both main political party contacts have been contacted on this matter, and it is now out there in the Dail land... Wondering should we move this now onto media contacts via the Agriland website?

Cass

meathstevie wrote: »

The pr mill is steadily grinding so.

Its why we need to keep writing or if anyone hasn't done it yet then start. might not seem to make much difference, but every letter helps.

Personally I don't think the average farmer could give a fiddlers fart ..............

You could have ended that sentence there. Every land owner i know thinks of them as vermin with one actually annoyed there is a season (which i had to explain to him when he asked why i stop shooting each February).

Lads this is far from a done deal. I've no doubt that now the gears have started that a course will make its way into the "books" at some point, but for now it's not law, the Minister cannot wave a magic wand and make it so, and the Deer Alliance/NPWS/WDAI or whomever else is involved do not have exclusive rights to Deer in this country and cannot control it only as they wish. They are just a bunch of lads that set up a group.

ayagerard

a licence fee should be considered to defray administration costs of licences ,
with close to E400,000 in proposed fees in the purse Wouldn't you think the npws would get the price of the paper and ink , with this crowd stating they are for non profit who gets the money and who did the tax returns from the hcap fees were reciepts issued
i am just asking like

Grizzly 45

From the deer alliance blog response

A full statement of Account is provided to stakeholder representatives at each Committee meeting (usually held quarterly) and audited accounts are provided annually. In short, full transparency and accountability is followed at all times, and this will continue to be the policy.

Does anyone here know how you find out a statement of accounts from a not for profit organisation?

Update.
So had a chat with the data protection commission.[Another slow bunch of useless so and sos] It seems that nothing, nowt, nada shows up on their listings of any of the organisations mentioned in the Deer Alliance website is Data protection registered. More so that if they are handling personal data and are doing this in the name of the Govt.They MUST BE DPA registered... Sooo, DPA suggests we write and email them to find out exactly what and wherefore and why they are not DPA registered, are they going to DPA register, and if not why not? If we get a non-satisfactory response.[IE we are ignored] totally, the DPA will investigate this organisation.

Lads, I have a very serious problem with giving my personal info and data to some non-govt body, which will probably include somewhere there the type of firearm and my address and God knows where or under what circumstances this information is stored by whom.Not only that off a crowd who wants money as well as personal info off me......If every gun club and range has to comply with DPA rules and be registerd for handling personal data,this lot should absolutely NOT be exempt.
So if you feel the same. Address to contact this lot and ask them is

Deer Alliance,
P.O. Box 1,
Borris,
Co. Carlow.

Phone Number 086 1927 845
Email Address deeralliance@gmail.com
Email Address www.deeralliance.ie

ezra_

I thought the days of government contracts going to unincorporated corporate bodies was long passed

meathstevie

ezra_ wrote: »

I thought the days of government contracts going to unincorporated corporate bodies was long passed

I couldn't care less if an organisation that provides goods or services to the government is an ltd, a plc a sole trader or some other company structure from across the globe. What is essential though is adherence to minimal required standards. If you don't appear to be even doing that you've no business whatsoever being involved in any potential regulatory process.

Cass

This is the kind of thing behind all these mandatory courses. It's meant to stop poaching and introduce new measures to stop illegal activities.

So someone tell me how this will stop this? Criminals will continue to work outside the law regardless of what is currently in place and what will be introduced. Also do you think the scum that shot these knew the species, it's age, health, etc. Not a fecking chance.

wexfordman2

Cass wrote: »

This is the kind of thing behind all these mandatory courses. It's meant to stop poaching and introduce new measures to stop illegal activities.

So someone tell me how this will stop this? Criminals will continue to work outside the law regardless of what is currently in place and what will be introduced. Also do you think the scum that shot these knew the species, it's age, health, etc. Not a fecking chance.

They can do the hcap then they will know what species its age and it's health.

Not that they will care though, so won't make a blond bit of difference as you said

Uinseann_16

wexfordman2 wrote: »

They can do the hcap then they will know what species its age and it's health.

Not that they will care though, so won't make a blond bit of difference as you said

They probably dont even have a deer legal caliber alot of it goes on with smaller rifles like .223 and even .22s ive seen deer with .22 bullets in their legs(one so badly infected the deer could barely walk ) and necks. and my father shot a red a while ago with a .22 bullet lodged in its skull

dto001

Maybe and this is only a suggestion this (data security issue) should not be mentioned to the deer alliance but sent directly to the minister and ombudsman or whom ever is over that sort of thing. Maybe even send it to the Gardai as they already probably have the types of firearms and addresses of alot of people already due to the course being run for so long. This I would see as a severe security risk!!! especially in rural areas for which there are not enough Gardai.
Excuse the edit.

Grizzly 45

As I said ringing the DPA on this was a rather sick joke and left me even more peed off as it is another organisation great at raking in the money, but don't want to know about a problem unless it is another "sure thing."
[ From being registered with them and personal experience that is]

After been directed to the data keeper,and not finding any names and me having to tell her her own job,that any organisation that handles personal data and especially sensitive data relating to firearms, would certainly have to be registered,and only when I mentioned that this is an organisation "working" for the Irish govt,did the tone change. Then I wanted to speak to whomever you lodge a complaint with re DP breaches, and after speaking to the East European janitor, who cut off the call transferring it, and re dialling .I got to speak to the guy in charge...His thing i is of course protocol.We must contact the DA ourselves and register a complaint with them or quiery.if that is not satisfactorily resolved,we need to get back to the DPA with proof of this, so email copies and logs of our phone calls no doubt.And then they will try and resolve this with the offending party.

So no guessing what the AGS and ministerial response will be?? Oh, and BTW, [thanks to a little bird], the person who is so magnanimously spending his free time travelling to these HCAP courses has a most interesting profile on linkedin.com Type in his name to see and judge yourselves whether he is short a bob or two and where the legal opinion came from.

Grizzly 45

Another thing that boils my piss here is this "Ah shure,nuthin we can do, might as well accept it"itis is creeping in on social media with Irish deer stalking groups. Is this some kind of heredity disease that affects Irish gun owners when any sort of a challange arrives??
Just because 1,200 people want to shoot in Coilte lets , their thinking shouldn't be dictating to the rest of us, who never want to set foot in such a place." Only 400" people have signed the change.org petition, so therefore no one is interested according to some heads out there. Honestly, we are our own worst enemies.:mad:

ayagerard

Cass wrote: »

behind all these mandatory courses. It's meant to stop poaching and introduce new measures to stop illegal activities.

So someone tell me how this will stop this? Criminals will continue to work outside the law regardless of what is currently in place and what will be introduced. Also do you think the scum that shot these knew the species, it's age, health, etc. Not a fecking chance.

this was no act of cruelty but a crime in process that was disturbed some one came on them a car passed what ever happened they wouldn't take the chance of collecting them ??
as i see it the criminals in this case are out about E150 FOR THE 2 YEARLINGS and the game dealer these were destined for, probably 200-300 more if for the restaurant trade
all cash and it is rampant, 20-25 deer a month 4-5 months and this shour idmf thinks a couple of plastic tags will stop it, i think not , they wont even get creditable returns back from tags, this gang ( idmf ) have been meeting quarterly seance march 15 19 stakeholders 3 meetings in 15 4 meetings in 16 and 3 so far in 17 we will say 3 hours per meeting that is over 2000 man hours and this is the best they can come up with ,have they asked the department of agriculture how traceable a plastic tag is it does question the amount of thought that is being put in to this by them, or are they making it up as they go along for sure they will have something to talk about in the last meeting for 2017

Kat1170

ayagerard wrote: »

as i see it the criminals in this case are out about E150 FOR THE 2 YEARLINGS and the game dealer these were destined for, probably 200-300 more if for the restaurant trade
all cash and it is rampant,

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the easiest and most cost effective way to almost cut out poaching is to ban all cash dealings with the game dealers. It worked to almost eradicate the stealing of metal when introduced in London and I am certain it would do the same with poaching here.

I say almost because you'll never cut it out completely.