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Is the term "Non National" Racist ?

Dr Brown

I can't see anything wrong with using the term "Non National" but some people seem to think its "racist".

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joebloggs32

gramar wrote: »

They're either Irish or non national. A non Irish national doesn't make sense.

A foreign national should be used to describe a person not from the country. They are foreign to Ireland, but a national of some other country.

Zebra3

Hate the term. Find people use it only towards Eastern European or African immigrants. Never to those from Western Europe, North America, Australia....

Love calling some Brits who live here immigrants. Really grates on the nerves of the self-proclaimed ex-pats.

Victor

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

As mahamageehad points out, that's part of the issue. The better they speak English, the whiter the skin, the longer their country has been in the EU, the less likely they are to be called a non-national.

gozunda

Victor wrote: »

As mahamageehad points out, that's part of the issue. *The better they speak English, the whiter the skin, the longer their country has been in the EU, the less likely they are to be called a non-national.

So thats saying it's purely a cultural thing then? Being a western European country which is part of the EU with an indigenous population who traditionallty have have "whiter the skin" (sic) and speak English.

Either your a national ie someone belonging to the nation / country of Ireland or your not. Other non "whiter the skin" countries use this term- not just Ireland. I really detest the way everything has to have a racist angle.

Non National is defined as something "that is not national; that consists of or represents more than one nation; that is not a citizen of a (usually specified)"

Perhaps rather than making unsupported blanket assertions you could provide some stats which support the above opinion*?

Peregrinus

The term is not inherently racist; it's just calling attention to the fact that someone is not an Irish national.

Of course, the term can be used to make racist statements. Just like the term "Jewish" isn't antisemitic, but it's easy to find examples of statements which employ the term to antisemitic effect.

The question we need to ask is "why is my attention being called to this person's citizenship status?" Why, in this context, is it supposed to matter what their citizenship status is? And the answer to that question may well - or may not - reveal a racist intent or attitude.

Annasopra

gramar wrote: »

They're either Irish or non national. A non Irish national doesn't make sense.

Non national makes no sense. The vast majority of people in the world do have a nationality of origin.

gramar

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Non national makes no sense. The vast majority of people in the world do have a nationality of origin.

In Ireland though it refers to those living in Ireland but not from Ireland. Of course they have some nationality.

I think they from now on they should be labelled as 'long term tourists'.

gozunda

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Non national makes no sense. The vast majority of people in the world do have a nationality of origin.

That's simply using the literal sense of the words non and national rather than viewing the term in context to where and how it is applied.

If someone said that "his eyes were pinned to to the TV" would you believe that literally his eyeballs were pinned to the TV with staples?

Boom_Bap

gozunda wrote: »

That's simply using the literal sense of the words non and national rather than viewing the term in context to where and how it is applied.

If someone said that "his eyes were pinned to to the TV" would you believe that literally his eyeballs were pinned to the TV with staples?

Tried it once, but I think I used the wrong type of pins. I think they were non nationalistic pins.

[Deleted User]

Dr Brown wrote: »

I can't see anything wrong with using the term "Non National" but some people seem to think its "racist".

The term "non national" is perfectly fine in most cases & it's not a raciest term in itself. It's what you follow it up with that some might find racist .

I'm Irish. When I travel to any other country in the world then I'm a non national

inforfun

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Non national makes no sense. The vast majority of people in the world do have a nationality of origin.

Me being one of those non-nationals that is about it indeed.
It never made much sense in my Dutch brain. I might not be Irish but i do have a nationality.
I know that isnt what it really means but that is how it "translates" to me.

But i wouldnt call it racist, that is really stretching it.

[Deleted User]

inforfun wrote: »

Me being one of those non-nationals that is about it indeed.
It never made much sense in my Dutch brain. I might not be Irish but i do have a nationality.
I know that isnt what it really means but that is how it "translates" to me.

But i wouldnt call it racist, that is really stretching it.

Admittedly foreign national would be a better term.

I've a bigger issue with the "undocumented Irish" for when we are in someone else's country yet we call undocumented when in Ireland "illegal Immigrants"

mahamageehad

gozunda wrote: »

Victor wrote: »

As mahamageehad points out, that's part of the issue. *The better they speak English, the whiter the skin, the longer their country has been in the EU, the less likely they are to be called a non-national.

So thats saying it's purely a cultural thing then? Being a western European country which is part of the EU with an indigenous population who traditionallty have have "whiter the skin" (sic) and speak English.

Either your a national ie someone belonging to the nation / country of Ireland or your not. Other non "whiter the skin" countries use this term- not just Ireland. I really detest the way everything has to have a racist angle.

Non National is defined as something "that is not national; that consists of or represents more than one nation; that is not a citizen of a (usually specified)"

Perhaps rather than making unsupported blanket assertions you could provide some stats which support the above opinion*?

I think you're jumping pretty hard to get offended here. I specifically said that the term in and of itself isn't racist however it's often used in a racist way by a small fringe. And when it's used it this way, it's rarely directed at brits or other people who look like us and speak our language.

professore

"Non-national" feels too close to "Non-person" for my liking. "Foreigners" is much better IMO.

Grayson

Remember when Sweden said that the ISIS flag wasn't racist because it doesn't actually target any individual group. ISIS hate everyone and to be racist you have to target a specific group.
This is kind of similar. Non national could be used in an offensive manner but even if it was, I don't know if it'd be racist since it doesn't specifically target a particular group, it targets everyone.

As to whether or not it's offensive, it depends on how it's used. It's a perfectly normal way for the government to describe a group of people as a demographic within a nations borders. I guess it could be used in an offensive manner by some people.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

topper75

Is quarehawk still acceptable? That is what my gran called them.

gozunda

mahamageehad wrote: »

I think you're jumping pretty hard to get offended here. I specifically said that the term in and of itself isn't racist however it's often used in a racist way by a small fringe. And when it's used it this way, it's rarely directed at brits or other people who look like us and speak our language.

No offence offered tbh. That is my opinion and I stand by it. Anything and just about any term 'may' be used in a racist way. Why then the term 'non national is being targeted specifically?

Within context there is no absolutely no issue. Of the use of the term non national. I've seen the term non national applied to everyone and anyone who is not an Irish citizen. I've also seen in used in countries abroad where it is again directed at those who are not citizens and even where it does not reflect a majority of "white skin colour". Moreover I reject the assumption be that because we are a western European country historically of "white skin colur" that any such words uttered is sonehow directed at any one who is not. Storm in a tea cup imo.

I would advise to buy a dictionary and use it to look up the ddefinition of literal. Saves time.

Gwynplaine

National - Foreigner
Professional - Amateur.
Non professional is just stupid.
Don't tell me what you're not, tell me what you are.

Victor

gozunda wrote: »

Why then the term 'non national is being targeted specifically?

It tends to be used imprecisely and it's the topic of the thread.

mahamageehad

gozunda wrote: »

No offence offered tbh. That is my opinion and I stand by it. Anything and just about any term 'may' be used in a racist way. Why then the term 'non national is being targeted specifically?

Within context there is no absolutely no issue. Of the use of the term non national. I've seen the term non national applied to everyone and anyone who is not an Irish citizen. I've also seen in used in countries abroad where it is again directed at those who are not citizens and even where it does not reflect a majority of "white skin colour". Moreover I reject the assumption be that because we are a western European country historically of "white skin colur" that any such words uttered is sonehow directed at any one who is not. Storm in a tea cup imo.

I would advise to buy a dictionary and use it to look up the ddefinition of literal. Saves time.

:rolleyes:
Really? It's being 'targeted' because it's the subject of this thread.
Yes, loads of terms may be used in a racist way. However, this one often is. Here's a fun experiment - throw "non national" in the boards search engine and look at what comes back. Sure, there's a few hits from Legal Discussion and Work & Jobs and Accom & Property as expected, but the majority are here in AH or Politics. One example I remember well from recently was the "would you be ok with white Irish becoming a minority", some choice examples in that thread.

In any case, we've actually in agreement on the majority of the points. CSO for example has used the term non national in press releases and that's obviously fine. So I agree that within context there's no issue.

The Rape of Lucretia

'N*n N******l' is a disgraceful way to describe any human being. That we can still hear this blatantly denigratory and insulting description used freely is a scandal in this day and age. Much of the discussion in this thread, and the number of people who still seem to be living with an attitude of decades ago is frankly quite appalling.

gozunda

Victor wrote: »

It tends to be used imprecisely and it's the topic of the thread.

I would disagree - here it is clearly been used out of context and besides many many words are used imprecisely - but we don't make a huha about them.

I suspect that there is some other motive behind the question posed. Use the search function - you may find some existence of this ...

gozunda

mahamageehad wrote: »

:rolleyes:
Really? It's being 'targeted' because it's the subject of this thread.
Yes, loads of terms may be used in a racist way. However, this one often is. Here's a fun experiment - throw "non national" in the boards search engine and look at what comes back. Sure, there's a few hits from Legal Discussion and Work & Jobs and Accom & Property as expected, but the majority are here in AH or Politics. One example I remember well from recently was the "would you be ok with white Irish becoming a minority", some choice examples in that thread.

In any case, we've actually in agreement on the majority of the points. CSO for example has used the term non national in press releases and that's obviously fine. So I agree that within context there's no issue.

Oh I did use the search function and I think my findings were quite different from yours. But yes I agree just about any word or term can be used improperly or interpreted literally.

Put the horse back before the cart. Just because it is the subject of this thread does not answer the question as to why this thread. I would point you back at a relevant search of boards - look closer to the original post itself

As to AH and Politics I would wager those boards especially the former get a much wider range of topics than others. AH specially gets the worst and whacky in the best possible way :pac:

Wibbs

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

'N*n N******l' is a disgraceful way to describe any human being. That we can still hear this blatantly denigratory and insulting description used freely is a scandal in this day and age. Much of the discussion in this thread, and the number of people who still seem to be living with an attitude of decades ago is frankly quite appalling.

I had avoided reading this thread. Thought let it develop, only to drop in this evening to the last page to read this. Whatever one's position on the matter at hand*, self censoring 'N*n N******l' is howling at the moon bonkers barking mad.

My position would be generally no, it's not "racist", certainly not in the minds of the majority of folks who might use it. However and as other's have pointed out it doesn't sound logical, because unless you're born, bred and raised at sea all your life you're a national of somewhere.

wakka12

Some peopleare also stupid, big overlap there

The Rape of Lucretia

mahamageehad wrote: »

In any case, we've actually in agreement on the majority of the points. CSO for example has used the term non national in press releases and that's obviously fine.

What ? So the arbiter of racist terms is the CSO now ? If they use it, its OK ? :eek:
On the contrary, their use of it indicates the inherent racism in Ireland towards anybody not Irish, and how desensitised so many have become to this 'normalised' background racism.

Phil.x

How could it be racist?

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/non-national

mahamageehad

gozunda wrote: »

Oh I did use the search function and I think my findings were quite different from yours. But yes I agree just about any word or term can be used improperly or interpreted literally.

Put the horse back before the cart. Just because it is the subject of this thread does not answer the question as to why this thread. I would point you back at a relevant search of boards - look closer to the original post itself

As to AH and Politics I would wager those boards especially the former get a much wider range of topics than others. AH specially gets the worst and whacky in the best possible way :pac:

Yeah, tis only a tiny (but vocal) % using it in this way, especially in AH. :P While I get where you're going with this, I commented on it specifically because of the thread rather than in the wider context of all things that could be racist. I;d say the difference in our results is based on the filtering options! :pac:

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

What ? So the arbiter of racist terms is the CSO now ? If they use it, its OK ? :eek:
On the contrary, their use of it indicates the inherent racism in Ireland towards anybody not Irish, and how desensitised so many have become to this 'normalised' background racism.

Yes. Yes, you're right. Sure we're all only racists and heathens. Or, maybe, as a body that reports regularly on demographics, they have more reason to use it? Or would that just make too much sense for you? Tis not racism to say that someone isn't a national of Ireland, especially when that's based on demographic data. Ireland is a country, not a race.

mahamageehad

Also btw, it may just be me, but every time I hear non national used in a normal context, I always consider it to mean not a national of Ireland. I've never once thought that it mean people with no nationality. It's been brought up a few times here and I just never considered that as a use case. I prefer the term foreign national, or better yet specifying where they're from, but in general when I hear non national my mind wouldn't jump to nationless. I find that to be a weird argument.