NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

turbbo wrote: »

If we were to follow your idea of how a commercial telecoms company should operate we'd have a completely separate network for each operator?

You're applying shop like commercial rules eg. if you want to shop with lidl you shop in a lidl store, you don't go to a generic store and have the option of buying lidl or Tesco items.

Welcome to the real world. That's exactly what we have. And that's exactly how the real world works.

A infrastructure that can be shared by operators would only have been possible IF the goverment had not privatised Eircoms network and only seperated the retail from the network arm.

That train has left the station decades ago and can not be reverted.

So yes .. EVERY provider builds their own infrastructure. OpenEIR is forced to share their infrastructure due to being the ex-incumbent, but regulation is poor, so it's not a choice for most providers.

And well, when it suits them, they do commercial roll-outs like this one, which has nothing to do with regulation or the goverment, as they're a private entity.

They aren't even a registered business in the state. They're a registered corporation in Jersey with a Branch in Ireland. There is no goverment control to their commercial activities.

/M

Marlow wrote: »

And well, when it suits them, they do commercial roll-outs like this one, which has nothing to do with regulation or the goverment, as they're a private entity.
/M

Hold up - nothing to do with regulation or the goverment. Thats just not true. They're a company that own infrastructure within the Irish state and they operate within this state - they have to abide by laws within this state - just because they're registered in jersey doesn't give them the right to do what they like here, although it does seem like it most of the time.

turbbo wrote: »

Hold up - nothing to do with regulation or the goverment. Thats just not true. They're a company that own infrastructure within the Irish state and they operate within this state - they have to abide by laws within this state - just because they're registered in the jersey doesn't give them the right to do what they like here, although it does seem like it most of the time.

You're confusing things. That's STILL 2 different things.

Of course they have to abide by laws within this state.

However, Government has NO, ZERO, ZILCH influence, where they do their commercial rollout, once they keep within regulations.

There is no regulation, as to where a provider has to roll out their infrastructure. Any provider, OpenEIR included, can roll out their infrastructure anywhere in the state, if they wish so and they've obtained the necessary permits.

My mentioning them not even being a corporation within the state was just to make it very clear, how much influence the goverment has and how far they are from government control, when it comes to their commercial actions.

People still think of Eircom as being the government owned telco. And there is no such thing anymore. All the funds are controlled from Australia and proceeds are going there. So why should they care about non-profitable areas unless somebody pays them to do so ?

/M

Marlow wrote: »

There is no regulation, as to where a provider has to roll out their infrastructure.
/M

Eh? that was my point? are you even reading my posts? there is no regulation!
Comreg are incompetent and useless - time and time again they have shown that.

turbbo wrote: »

Eh? that was my point? are you even reading my posts? there is no regulation!
Comreg are incompetent and useless - time and time again they have shown that.

There's nowhere in Europe, where the regulator regulates, where commercial providers have to target their roll-out.

The regulator can however make rules on network sharing, price caps, requirements for any rollout that any provider is doing etc. And yes, that job is not being done.

That has nothing to do with the NBP though. That is a problem in Ireland in general, as providers are paying 3-10 times as much for renting infrastructure, as they pay to get the bandwidth from the UK or France to Ireland.

Not even the pricing on the eNet managed, government owned, Metro Networks are price regulated in a sensible way.

And where a price has been set by the regulator, the requirement of availing the product to other providers has not been made a requirement.

Either way, you're barking up the wrong tree. If you want Comreg regulation, you need to speak to Naughten .. who believes, that LTE/wireless is equal fiber based network infrastructure etc. And that the high transit prices across the emerald isle aren't the problem, (at least not his) because Comreg doesn't want to regulate them.

/M

Marlow wrote: »

There's nowhere in Europe, where the regulator regulates, where commercial providers have to target their roll-out.

The regulator can however make rules on network sharing, price caps, requirements for any rollout that any provider is doing etc. And yes, that job is not being done.

That has nothing to do with the NBP though. That is a problem in Ireland in general, as providers are paying 3-10 times as much for renting infrastructure, as they pay to get the bandwidth from the UK or France to Ireland.

Not even the pricing on the eNet managed, government owned, Metro Networks are price regulated in a sensible way.

And where a price has been set by the regulator, the requirement of availing the product to other providers has not been made a requirement.

Either way, you're barking up the wrong tree. If you want Comreg regulation, you need to speak to Naughten .. who believes, that LTE/wireless is equal fiber based network infrastructure etc. And that the high transit prices across the emerald isle aren't the problem, (at least not his) because Comreg doesn't want to regulate them.

/M

Naughten is a muppet - the dept. should know what is what. I don't take Naughten seriously on anything, it's the dept pulling the strings and I think they completely missed an opportunity to shake things up with the NBP instead we end up with Eir - a company that hates its customers.

turbbo wrote: »

Naughten is a muppet - the dept. should know what is what. I don't take Naughten seriously on anything, it's the dept pulling the strings and I think they completely missed an opportunity to shake things up with the NBP instead we end up with Eir - a company that hates its customers.

Every minister in that position in the last 2+ decades has been clueless to the subject. So have the advisors been (clueless). Even before Dial-Up Dempsey.

Why would you expect that to change, unless you rally for changes ?

As for ending up with Eir .. there's loads of independent providers around that cover similar grounds and quite a few do a decent job of that. So, you always have another choice.

/M

Marlow wrote: »

Every minister in that position in the last 2+ decades has been clueless to the subject. So have the advisors been (clueless). Even before Dial-Up Dempsey.

Why would you expect that to change, unless you rally for changes ?

As for ending up with Eir .. there's loads of independent providers around that cover similar grounds and quite a few do a decent job of that. So, you always have another choice.

/M

You've no decent choice it you're not on the 300k or where Siro have rolled out.

Johnboy1951

What, to me, has been the most disappointing aspect of the NBP is the apparent decision not to have the core infrastructure in public hands.

I think this is a short-sighted decision and really shows that nothing much has changed since eircom was sold off.

Even at this late stage, and despite all that has happened, I still believe this should be considered as an option.

Even if it required a state/semi-state communications organisation to oversee it's operation and ensure its profitability, so be it.

I also am one of those that hoped the ESB or some branch of the ESB might do this (from long before SIRO was announced).

In my vision we would have had both electricity and fibre lines into each premises.

I am sad when I see what (it seems) we will end up with.

turbbo wrote: »

You've no decent choice it you're not on the 300k or where Siro have rolled out.

That is a question of what your requirements are and clearly only seen from your perspective. For the average home anything from 10 Mbit/s and up is sufficient.

The much bigger problem is, that the basic price point in Ireland is too high. And that comes from the line rental prices (even wholesale) and the core infrastructure being priced at prices that are 10-fold of what it costs elsewhere in the world.

The issue we have, is that a lot of homes can't afford to pay more then sub-30 EUR for phone+internet, yet the retail landline charge is 28 EUR'ish. That's before you fill the pipe. Nevermind the line rental for FTTH.

And because that core national infrastructure is priced so high, it becomes commercially unviable to serve small rural patches in the middle of nowhere. Not enough left for the provider delivering the service at the end of the day.

So, unless Comreg and the minister attack the problem and regulate at the core issues ... the core infrastructure and the wholesale network pricing .. nothing is going to change. That's the core problem that ALWAYS is being overlooked, even though it has been raised by providers numerous times. They don't even regulate the pricing for government owned infrastructure properly.

The bottom falls out of the NBP, because you can't get the bandwidth into these areas at a sensible pricing.

/M

Marlow wrote: »

That is a question of what your requirements are and clearly only seen from your perspective. For the average home anything from 10 Mbit/s and up is sufficient.
/M

I can't get above 2.5mbs on a fixed line service where I live and I live about 4kms outside a city, not on the top of a mountain. And I'm positive I'm not alone in living in what one would consider suburbia and getting a totally inadequate service - this is the norm for Ireland currently, check any bb statistics ranking and see where Ireland is placed. I'm sick to death of people talking about how good we have it here - total $hite.

turbbo wrote: »

I can't get above 2.5mbs on a fixed line service where I live and I live about 4kms outside a city, not on the top of a mountain. And I'm positive I'm not alone in living in what one would consider suburbia and getting a totally inadequate service - this is the norm for Ireland currently, check any bb statistics ranking and see where Ireland is placed. I'm sick to death of people talking about how good we have it here - total $hite.

And have you checked, if a fixed wireless provider can offer you more ?

/M

Marlow wrote: »

And have you checked, if a fixed wireless provider can offer you more ?
/M

You seem to think I'm on here making it up? Sigh - yes of course I have.

user1842

It's clear now that Eir will get the whole scheme.

And as we have a weak regulator Eir will probably half ass the role out. They will fight every fine in the courts and not give proper access to their network. Their repair times will be abysmal and they will probably lie about how many premises they have passed not to mention the extreme disrepair of some of their rural lines and poles.

It may very well be that once they get the contract and the money, they sit on their ass and do nothing except for a healthy balance sheet when they float the company.

user1842 wrote: »

Its clear now that Eir will get the whole scheme.

And as we have a weak regulator Eir will probably half ass the role out. They will fight every fine in the courts and not give proper access to their network. Their repair times will be abysmal and they will probably lie about how many premises they have passed.

It may very well be once they get the contract and the money, they sit on there ass and do nothing expect to all for a healthy balance sheet when they float the company.

Totally what is going to happen the NBP is a big sick joke.

user1842

turbbo wrote: »

Totally what is going to happen the NBP is a big sick joke.

I hope im totally wrong, I really do. The only way I think to rescue the situation is to give Comreg the legal powers it needs to do its job and give it the staff it needs.

We need an amazing regulator if this will work.

listermint

Imagine a private company owning all the major and national roads in the country and charging excessive rates to use then and providing no upgrades to the roads.

All other lesser roads are open to the rest of the market.

You think that would fly.

I don't.

user1842 wrote: »

I hope im totally wrong, I really do. The only way I think to rescue the situation is to give Comreg the legal powers it needs to do its job and give it the staff it needs.

We need an amazing regulator if this will work.

We can't even regulate the banks, and that would seem like it should be even higher priority.

They have been chewing this NBP for three years now, I think they will chew it for 3 or 4 years more and then they will spit it on our faces.

Ultimanemo wrote: »

They have been chewing this NBP for three years now, I think they will chew it for 3 or 4 years more and then they will spit it on our faces.

Lol! too f u c k i n right.

Gonzo

Ultimanemo wrote: »

They have been chewing this NBP for three years now, I think they will chew it for 3 or 4 years more and then they will spit it on our faces.

it's real annoying that the NBP has taken so long, and that Eir have done stuff to their own advantage leading to Siro pulling out, but it could be alot worse, at least Eir will provide FTTH to the majority of the country once the NBP is complete. It could have easily ended up with Imagine or some other wireless provider filling the country with wireless junk that will be obsolete within a few years and we'd be back to square one.

BarryM

This whole discussion is great, it should have happened in whatever Dept Dempsy ran, years ago.
Now, with Leo and the neo-libs, and a ragbag of Indos, nothing radical will be done, the Examiner is right.

The one real frustration is that the ESB has a cable into every house AND is state owned.

However, the ESB pays a huge "dividend" to their owner, the Minister. This could be used to wrap fibre around the wires, as is done elsewhere. But no, we'll take the divided, and let Siro make their own decisions.

There lies the fundamental problem. The ESB is not privatised, the Dept/Regulator allows them to jack up the prices, despite the so-called competition, because the Dept gets the income. The Dept who gets the money has no interest in pushing on the development of telecommunications. This "policy" suits the Dept of Finance, keeps them happy.

listermint

Gonzo wrote: »

it's real annoying that the NBP has taken so long, and that Eir have done stuff to their own advantage leading to Siro pulling out, but it could be alot worse, at least Eir will provide FTTH to the majority of the country once the NBP is complete. It could have easily ended up with Imagine or some other wireless provider filling the country with wireless junk that will be obsolete within a few years and we'd be back to square one.

Is evident you don't understand the term majority. Because that is not what Eir are doing

Gonzo wrote: »

it's real annoying that the NBP has taken so long, and that Eir have done stuff to their own advantage leading to Siro pulling out, but it could be alot worse, at least Eir will provide FTTH to the majority of the country once the NBP is complete. It could have easily ended up with Imagine or some other wireless provider filling the country with wireless junk that will be obsolete within a few years and we'd be back to square one.

That is true if NBP will ever happen, I don't think it will. One political trick to manage the masses is: keep them occupied with small things so they don't come after you for the real thing. NBP is fulfilling that purpose here

I would be happy if I can get Imagine, that would be enough for me.

listermint wrote: »

Is evident you don't understand the term majority. Because that is not what Eir are doing

Usually majority means ME

lazeedaisy

Ultimanemo wrote: »

They have been chewing this NBP for three years now, I think they will chew it for 3 or 4 years more and then they will spit it on our faces.

We got signed up for NBP over 5 years ago! 3 years in your dreams,

I lost out on a job because where I lived had very bad phone signal, and I was unaware my phone stopped working at the end of our road,

Finally moved house, contacted the relevant company who blackballed me because I said they never made contact! 5 years and I'll never get my dream job because of it!

lazeedaisy wrote: »

We got signed up for NBP over 5 years ago! 3 years in your dreams,

I lost out on a job because where I lived had very bad phone signal, and I was unaware my phone stopped working at the end of our road,

Finally moved house, contacted the relevant company who blackballed me because I said they never made contact! 5 years and I'll never get my dream job because of it!

D amn

The high horse brigade

lazeedaisy wrote: »

We got signed up for NBP over 5 years ago! 3 years in your dreams,

I lost out on a job because where I lived had very bad phone signal, and I was unaware my phone stopped working at the end of our road,

Finally moved house, contacted the relevant company who blackballed me because I said they never made contact! 5 years and I'll never get my dream job because of it!

You did not sign up to NBP

For clarification
NBS = National broadband scheme, expired in 2014
NBP = National broadband plan, announced in 2012 still in consultation