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Are we over the annual poppy thread?

evolving_doors

Do we need it anymore, is it time to allow Irish people to wear whatever they want?

edit... poll added

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markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

Do you want me to post it again?

I sense you want to avoid answering the question as you know that you are wrong, so feign ignorance.

flaneur

Look, can we just accept that the Brits are gone a bit mad in recent years. It’s what happens to old super powers when they get to a certain age.

They’ll get over it, but just expect a lot more ranty nationalism for a while as they figure themselves out.

They’ll be grand eventually. It’s just a phase.

In the meantime just let them sing Rule Britannia whole holding up the sacred foot stabbing superior 3 pin plug and scalding themselves with separate British hot and cold taps rather than using evil euro mixers.

A Little Pony

markodaly wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What?

Do you want me to post it again?

I sense you want to avoid answering the question as you know that you are wrong, so feign ignorance.

Pretty much, an utterly ridiculous argument from Francie. As close to a authoritarian argument you will see.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Do you want me to post it again?

I sense you want to avoid answering the question as you know that you are wrong, so feign ignorance.

I don't understand your point and the connection to wearing a Burka.
A burka is not worn to offend.
If it does offend you, you have a right to object.

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't understand your point and the connection to wearing a Burke.
A burka is not worn to offend.
If it does offend you, you have a right to object.

Some people take offence to the Burka but offence is taken rather than given.

If something offends you, in a free country you have a right to object, in return that person can tell you to go **** yourself and move on. They are not forcing anything on anyone.

In summary, anyone has the right to wear a poppy if they so wish, you have the right to be offended and vocally raise your objection and in return that person can ignore you or call you a crank and move on with their lives. Simple.

Wearing a poppy is not forcing it on anyone else, weather you are offended or not. We are a Republic, not some FrancieBrady police state.

I hope this make it clear.

FrancieBrady

markodaly wrote: »

Some people take offence to the Burka but offence is taken rather than given.

If something offends you, in a free country you have a right to object, in return that person can tell you to go **** yourself and move on. They are not forcing anything on anyone.

In summary, anyone has the right to wear a poppy if they so wish, you have the right to be offended and vocally raise your objection and in return that person can ignore you or call you a crank and move on with their lives. Simple.

Wearing a poppy is not forcing it on anyone else, weather you are offended or not. We are a Republic, not some FrancieBrady police state.

I hope this make it clear.

I am delighted you finally got it.
If you chose to continue wearing something that somebody finds offensive you are forcing it on them.
All I am insisting on is the right to object, nothing more.
A 'police state' is somewhere that you are forced to wear something either by unquestioned consensus or by request.
Where does that remind you of? British media, British sporting organisations etc.?

markodaly

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am delighted you finally got it.
If you chose to continue wearing something that somebody finds offensive you are forcing it on them.
All I am insisting on is the right to object, nothing more.

You can object away Francie and everyone else can tell you go **** yourself in return. No one is saying you should not have the right to object.

However, I am puzzled why you think someone wearing a poppy is forcing it on you. Forcing it on someone is actually mandating that someone themselves wear it not that you should walk down the street without seeing someone wear it.

They are very different things.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

markodaly wrote: »

Some people take offence to the Burka but offence is taken rather than given.

If something offends you, in a free country you have a right to object, in return that person can tell you to go **** yourself and move on. They are not forcing anything on anyone.

In summary, anyone has the right to wear a poppy if they so wish, you have the right to be offended and vocally raise your objection and in return that person can ignore you or call you a crank and move on with their lives. Simple.

Wearing a poppy is not forcing it on anyone else, weather you are offended or not. We are a Republic, not some FrancieBrady police state.

I hope this make it clear.

I am delighted you finally got it.
If you chose to continue wearing something that somebody finds offensive you are forcing it on them.
All I am insisting on is the right to object, nothing more.
A 'police state' is somewhere that you are forced to wear something either by unquestioned consensus or by request.
Where does that remind you of? British media, British sporting organisations etc.?

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's not forcing it on someone, it's doing what YOU want to do, if you don't want to wear one, then don't. If someone wants to wear one, they are entitled to do so.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's not forcing it on someone, it's doing what YOU want to do, if you don't want to wear one, then don't. If someone wants to wear one, they are entitled to do so.

I think if someone continues to wear something I find offensive that they are forcing it on me.

Very simple idea that you seem to be having difficulty grasping, not much more I can do to help you.
The world would be a very chaotic place if we all simply did what 'we want to do'.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It's not forcing it on someone, it's doing what YOU want to do, if you don't want to wear one, then don't. If someone wants to wear one, they are entitled to do so.

I think if someone continues to wear something I find offensive that they are forcing it on me.

Very simple idea that you seem to be having difficulty grasping, not much more I can do to help you.
The world would be a very chaotic place if we all simply did what 'we want to do'.

Now we get to the hub of it, you hate it so much that you want to stop others from wearing it. That is the crux of the matter, that is what you are saying here. People wearing a poppy are entitled to do so in a democratic society, you are entitled to object. Nothing is being forced upon you.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Stop being so subservient, that is what is required of you.

I'm sorry Francie but I'll not be dictated to by anybody and certainly not by you. You are confusing tolerance with subservience and seem to be using aggression rather than assertiveness in the process. You can't bully your way through life like that. Fortunately that type of dictatorial attitude is decreasing in the world.

Please accept that I have a right to not object to something, every bit as much as you have a right to object. But don't castigate anybody for their beliefs or you become worse than the oppressors you are standing up to.

Good luck with it.

FrancieBrady

Gibson Wide Matrix wrote: »

I'm sorry Francie but I'll not be dictated to by anybody and certainly not by you. You are confusing tolerance with subservience and seem to be using aggression rather than assertiveness in the process. You can't bully your way through life like that. Fortunately that type of dictatorial attitude is decreasing in the world.

Please accept that I have a right to not object to something, every bit as much as you have a right to object. But don't castigate anybody for their beliefs or you become worse than the oppressors you are standing up to.

Good luck with it.

Asking someone not to wear something I find offensive is 'dictatorial' or 'agressive'?

Skylinehead

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think if someone continues to wear something I find offensive that they are forcing it on me.

That's an incredibly poor argument Francie. I don't like the poppy crap every year either, but what you find offensive is entirely on you. If I find white t-shirts offensive, are you forcing it on me by wearing one? Of course not, that would be stupid.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Now we get to the hub of it, you hate it so much that you want to stop others from wearing it. That is the crux of the matter, that is what you are saying here. People wearing a poppy are entitled to do so in a democratic society, you are entitled to object. Nothing is being forced upon you.

You can do what you want in your own space/community. When you come into mine expect to be told if you are doing something offensive. I would have thought that lesson had been learnt by now. Seems not.

FrancieBrady

Skylinehead wrote: »

That's an incredibly poor argument Francie. I don't like the poppy crap every year either, but what you find offensive is entirely on you. If I find white t-shirts offensive, are you forcing it on me by wearing one? Of course not, that would be stupid.

I never claimed otherwise, it is my point of view.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Now we get to the hub of it, you hate it so much that you want to stop others from wearing it. That is the crux of the matter, that is what you are saying here. People wearing a poppy are entitled to do so in a democratic society, you are entitled to object. Nothing is being forced upon you.

You can do what you want in your own space/community. When you come into mine expect to be told if you are doing something offensive. I would have thought that lesson had been learnt by now. Seems not.

Sorry but who is walking into your house with a poppy on? Keep it hid is what you are saying here. Don't go out in public. Authoritarian.

gormdubhgorm

evolving_doors wrote: »

Do we need it anymore, is it time to allow Irish people to wear whatever they want?

edit... poll added

If there was an:

'I ignore it I think the idea is anachronistic.

And it has been hijacked by jingoism and vested interests in the the name of remembrance'

in your poll then that is the one I would have clicked.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Sorry but who is walking into your house with a poppy on? Keep it hid is what you are saying here. Don't go out in public. Authoritarian.

I didn't say that.
In fact, I said you are free to wear it wherever you like, but I am also free to object to it. Just as I would to any offensive act.

flaneur

I don’t see any problem in the British honouring the war dead and those who fought for the country but, some of those wars were pointless. Turning it into a load of nationalistic nonsense is just taking it way too far.

WWII was the only one that I can see where they had no choice and really were fighting a horrific regime determined to do maximum damage.

WWI was a deadly spat between European powers that killed millions and not much else. A horrific waste of life and one that laid the economic and political foundations for the rise of fascism only a few decades later and thankfully the Cold War which followed stayed cold!

There’s a fine line between honouring the war dead and glorifying war and I think at times this stuff crosses that line.

Nothing should be beyond debate and beyond criticism and I think that’s where both the UK and USA have been headed in recent years.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Sorry but who is walking into your house with a poppy on? Keep it hid is what you are saying here. Don't go out in public. Authoritarian.

I didn't say that.
In fact, I said you are free to wear it wherever you like, but I am also free to object to it. Just as I would to any offensive act.

That isn't just what you said.You said people wearing the poppy is forcing it on you which is plainly nonsense. Someone wearing a Celtic or Rangers top down the street isn't forcing it on the person who isn't wearing such tops.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

That isn't just what you said.You said people wearing the poppy is forcing it on you which is plainly nonsense. Someone wearing a Celtic or Rangers top down the street isn't forcing it on the person who isn't wearing such tops.

Would you object to someone wearing a swastika?
If you are of the view that everything is acceptable, that everyone is free to do just what they want without regard for others then you are of course right.

But my world is not like that. Democracy does not allow you to do 'whatever you like'.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Asking someone not to wear something I find offensive is 'dictatorial' or 'agressive'?

No but telling me to stop being subservient, when you ignored all my points, most certainly is.

/out.

FrancieBrady

Gibson Wide Matrix wrote: »

No but telling me to stop being subservient, when you ignored all my points, most certainly is.

/out.

You are putting a tone on a simple word.

Saying nothing, or not having a view can be interpreted as being subservient. I see nothing dictatorial or aggressive in that.
If you are not being subservient, I am perplexed as to why you would be offended. Just say you aren't. No big deal.

rainbow kirby

I choose not to support military charities of any kind, therefore I do not wear a poppy. Very simple really.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

That isn't just what you said.You said people wearing the poppy is forcing it on you which is plainly nonsense. Someone wearing a Celtic or Rangers top down the street isn't forcing it on the person who isn't wearing such tops.

Would you object to someone wearing a swastika?
If you are of the view that everything is acceptable, that everyone is free to do just what they want without regard for others then you are of course right.

But my world is not like that. Democracy does not allow you to do 'whatever you like'.

You said wearing the poppy is forcing it on you. Me wearing a poppy is not forcing it on you. It's pretty simple stuff really. Just raise the white flag and be done with it.

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

You said wearing the poppy is forcing it on you. Me wearing a poppy is not forcing it on you. It's pretty simple stuff really. Just raise the white flag and be done with it.

If I tell you something is offensive and you continue to do it, that is forcing it on me.

That is what I said ALP and no amount of you trying to rewrite it will change that.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

You said wearing the poppy is forcing it on you. Me wearing a poppy is not forcing it on you. It's pretty simple stuff really. Just raise the white flag and be done with it.

If I tell you something is offensive and you continue to do it, that is forcing it on me.

That is what I said ALP and no amount of you trying to rewrite it will change that.

Again an utterly ridiculous argument, probably the worst argument I have ever seen on this forum which takes some doing. You haven't given any logic to this argument. You are literally saying that if you wear something you deem offensive it is forcing it on you. Do you not see how preposterous that is?

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

Again an utterly ridiculous argument, probably the worst argument I have ever seen on this forum which takes some doing. You haven't given any logic to this argument. You are literally saying that if you wear something you deem offensive it is forcing it on you. Do you not see how preposterous that is?

Would you object to somebody reading the news with a swastika on their lapel?

Answer that and you will understand the point.(But I think you fully understand it already)

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Again an utterly ridiculous argument, probably the worst argument I have ever seen on this forum which takes some doing. You haven't given any logic to this argument. You are literally saying that if you wear something you deem offensive it is forcing it on you. Do you not see how preposterous that is?

Would you object to somebody reading the news with a swastika on their lapel?

Answer that and you will understand the point.(But I think you fully understand it already)

What you are saying is if someone wears an Israeli pin or a Star of David and you find it offensive it means they are forcing it upon you. That is the core of the argument you are making which is as I said is preposterous.

Snickers Man

evolving_doors wrote: »

Do we need it anymore, is it time to allow Irish people to wear whatever they want?

You disingenuous charlatan!!!!

The issue was never "allowing Irish people to wear whatever they want". For years there have been Irish people strutting round with a poppy for whatever reason, either because they genuinely identified with those who served in the British Army or because they wanted to get up the nose of the local "Establishment".

The "Controversy" was when the likes of Kevin Myers et al started demanding that representatives of the state should disport the poppy in remembrance of Irish volunteers who "fought in two world wars" and that by not doing so, this country was "rewriting history" and "dishonouring the service of Irish heroes" and "wallowing in nationalist mythology" so out of step with modern enlightened thought.

It was not a case of "Why can't I?"; it was a case of "Why don't we?" or specifically "Why don't you?"

You can. But we don't.

The most basic truth about "Commemoration" is that it has nothing to do with studying history and everything to do with creating a unified point of view, which might be largely mythological, deviation from which is tantamount to treason. "This is the meaning you will take from this!" it says. "To interpret it any other way is heresy"

If you want a stark example of that, look at the controversy in the US about the maintenance of statues of Confederate leaders in public places. For decades, most people, regardless of their outlook, saw nothing wrong with commemorating military heroes, despite or even because of the fact that they lost the war. They were only doing their duty, as they saw it. Fighting for their hearth and home and community. No matter that the cause they served was flawed.

Today, however, the association of the Confederate cause with slavery is deemed to be so toxic that all right-thinking people demand that any manifestation of any Confederate emblem for any reason must be shunned like the plague. So all those hurling supporters of the Rebel County have to put away their Rebel Flags because wanting to see a hairy-arsed red-haired bony-shouldered Cork farmer twat another hairy-arsed red-haired bony shouldered farmer from Kilkenny with a hurley has become indelibly associated with racism.

Similarly, with the optimism of the peace process and evidence of reconciliation in Northern Ireland, some southern apologists for Empire (who had of course opposed the peace process vehemently throughout) started demanding that we view recent history differently. Our chaps fought with British chaps for the common good. We'd all be speaking German if they hadn't. And look at the society they created? A peaceful Ireland, a united Europe no longer at each other's throats. A democratic continent, free of the death penalty and interminable internecine strife.

Of course all that was before Brexit..........

Methinks the "values" represented by the dead of Two World Wars that the British will want to highlight will soon start to deviate sharply from those the Irish, such as they are, will want to promote.

Gonna be fun