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Theresa May to honour Irish republican Countess Markievicz

steddyeddy

Well she actually wants to honour the first woman elected to the house of commons, which happens to be Markievicz. Thatcher wpuld be spinning in her grave.

I wonder does she know who she's paying tribute too.

http://www.thejournal.ie/countess-markievicz-3665661-Oct2017/

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Jawgap

elperello wrote: »

I bet May secretly wishes she had the small arms skills of the Countess.

What?????

She set up a position in Stephens Green surrounded on all sides by high buildings......in that regard she is exactly like May......she established a poor position, pushed it, got isolated, then had to engage in a fighting retreat to more defensible but strategically unimportant ground!

......oh, and the copper she is reputed to have shot was unarmed.

And admirable person in many regards, but when it came to military nouse any admiration one might have for her would be better directed elsewhere.

LordSutch

stimpson wrote: »

It's not called murder when you're at war.

Problem was nobody knew there was a war on, least of all the poor old Dublin policeman who was trying to usher the Fenians out of the park, they argued with him, he demanded that they leave, so she shot him - dead!

...anyway, their was no war on in the Dublin of 1916. Yes the on/off Republican anarchist Rebellion was kind of happening that Easter (much to the public's annoyance), but there was no war, apart from the main event raging on the continent (where most of the Irish soldiers were that week).

timthumbni

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I thought the Gaelic spelling would go down like Pamela Anderson in a swimsuit with you.............

Jawgap

A Little Pony wrote: »

Think it should be ignored. She didn't take her seat and was a traitor to the crown.

Ah come on, Cromwell cut off a kings ahead and they gave him a statue.......politics aside, her election, even if she didn't take her seat, was still a watershed moment in the shared history of both countries. It deserves recognition.

stimpson

elperello wrote: »

Six dead coppers shot dead while unarmed and laid out in the City Morgue might have disagreed with you.

I think the British army prefer to call them Extrajudicial Killings.

steddyeddy

LordSutch wrote: »

Problem was nobody knew there was a war on, least of all the poor old Dublin policeman who was trying to usher the Fenians out of the park, they argued with him, he demanded that they leave, so she shot him - dead!

...anyway, their was no war on in the Dublin of 1916. Yes the on/off Republican anarchist Rebellion was kind of happening that Easter (much to the public's annoyance), but there was no war, apart from the main event raging on the continent (where most of the Irish soldiers were that week).

No seriously, this really happened during an armed rebellion?

OldMrBrennan83

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LordSutch

Patww79 wrote: »

Those soldiers on the continent weren't Irish, just the butchers pawns.

What, all fifty thousand of them!

Charming.

timthumbni

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Butcher/Butchers??????..........

A Little Pony

RustyNut wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

She didn't take her seat and was a traitor to the crown.

Indeed, a good loyal Irish warrior woman.

Should have been hanged for her crimes against Irish policemen.

steddyeddy

A Little Pony wrote: »

Should have been hanged for her crimes against Irish policemen.

But she wasn't and instead she'll be honoured by the British government xxox

stimpson

LordSutch wrote: »

Problem was nobody knew there was a war on, least of all the poor old Dublin policeman who was trying to usher the Fenians out of the park, they argued with him, he demanded that they leave, so she shot him - dead!

...anyway, their was no war on in the Dublin of 1916. Yes the on/off Republican anarchist Rebellion was kind of happening that Easter (much to the public's annoyance), but there was no war, apart from the main event raging on the continent (where most of the Irish soldiers were that week).

Regretible, but I'm sure it was a tactical necessity.

[Deleted User]

A Little Pony wrote: »

Should have been hanged for her crimes against Irish policemen.

You realise that shortly after 1916 it was generally recognised that shooting the leaders was considered to be a grave strategic error. You get the prize for being the slowest learner yet as regards Irish history.

server down

steddyeddy wrote: »

And this was during a rebellion? Mad altogether Ted.

Yeh. It was. And I’m no unionist but the RIC were Irish lads, and this guy was unarmed. That said there’s not substantial evidence that she did it.

Jawgap

stimpson wrote: »

Regretible, but I'm sure it was a tactical necessity.

Eh?

The officer reputed to have been shot by Markievicz was Clare-man Michael Lahiff. He was unarmed. And, according to one witness account, was shot as he walked down from Harcourt Street......

.....given you are so sure it was necessary, what in your opinion made it so?

....what possible threat did a single, unarmed Clare-man offer to an armed group?

steddyeddy

Jawgap wrote: »

Eh?

The officer reputed to have been shot by Markievicz was Clare-man Michael Lahiff. He was unarmed. And, according to one witness account, was shot as he walked down from Harcourt Street......

.....given you are so sure it was necessary, what in your opinion made it so?

....what possible threat did a single, unarmed Clare-man offer to an armed group?

Called some armed men? Do you think he would have ignored it?

Jawgap

steddyeddy wrote: »

Called some armed men? Do you think he would have ignored it?

In 1916?

How do you think he'd have managed that and just how long would they have taken to arrive.....and if there was such a cadre of armed men available how come it took the authorities and the Brits so long to organise a response to any of the occupied sites around the city?

.....never mind that Malin's command numbered over 100 and was well on its way to digging in - you really think a single unarmed police officer could have whistled up 300 armed men (assuming the usual ratio of 3:1 was required to dislodge an entrenched adversary?)

Also the nature of his injuries - one bullet passed through both lungs and his left arm - suggests more a bushwhacking than a confrontation (as some accounts suggest there was).....sounds like she had the jump on him but was unwilling to take him prisoner.....since she ran back to the rest of the garrison shouting trimuphantly (in the words of one witness) "I got him" before accpeting the congratualtions of others.

Although at that point its unclear if she knew whether she left Lahiff for dead, or thought she had just wounded him.

Zebra3

elperello wrote: »

Six dead coppers shot dead while unarmed and laid out in the City Morgue might have disagreed with you.

How can you shoot dead a dead copper?

McMurphy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Irishness isn't confined to a religion or name.

You don't say.....

Considering we have a Taoiseach with the surname Varadkar and all......

I'm reminded of this clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URnJzUPChSg

elperello

Zebra3 wrote: »

How can you shoot dead a dead copper?

Apologies I plead guilty to one count of tautology.

There are still six dead guys under the sheets who were shot while unarmed.

steddyeddy

Jawgap wrote: »

In 1916?

How do you think he'd have managed that and just how long would they have taken to arrive.....and if there was such a cadre of armed men available how come it took the authorities and the Brits so long to organise a response to any of the occupied sites around the city?

.....never mind that Malin's command numbered over 100 and was well on its way to digging in - you really think a single unarmed police officer could have whistled up 300 armed men (assuming the usual ratio of 3:1 was required to dislodge an entrenched adversary?)

Also the nature of his injuries - one bullet passed through both lungs and his left arm - suggests more a bushwhacking than a confrontation (as some accounts suggest there was).....sounds like she had the jump on him but was unwilling to take him prisoner.....since she ran back to the rest of the garrison shouting trimuphantly (in the words of one witness) "I got him" before accpeting the congratualtions of others.

Although at that point its unclear if she knew whether she left Lahiff for dead, or thought she had just wounded him.

I'm not saying it's his death was a noble thing or a fantastic thing, but as armed conflict goes it's a lot less bloody than most wars.

It was also infinitesimally less brutal than the history of British conflict in Ireland. The republican armed rebellions got a lot more vicious in their approach, but against that enemy who could blame them?

Zebra3

elperello wrote: »

Apologies I plead guilty to one count of tautology.

There are still six dead guys under the sheets who were shot while unarmed.

Do you think those coppers gave a toss about anyone else while serving the British occupation?

Jawgap

Zebra3 wrote: »

Do you think those coppers gave a toss about anyone else while serving the British occupation?

Do you really think the daily life of the DMP was about 'serving the British occupation' - whatever that means :rolleyes:

For example, the DMP statisitcal tables and the prisoner books in the UCD archive show that in any given year, most of the arrests they made were for being drunk and disorderly......

elperello

Jawgap wrote: »

What?????

She set up a position in Stephens Green surrounded on all sides by high buildings......in that regard she is exactly like May......she established a poor position, pushed it, got isolated, then had to engage in a fighting retreat to more defensible but strategically unimportant ground!

......oh, and the copper she is reputed to have shot was unarmed.

And admirable person in many regards, but when it came to military nouse any admiration one might have for her would be better directed elsewhere.

Granted she was no military tactician but I'd back her against May in an imaginary gunfight!

Jawgap

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not saying it's his death was a noble thing or a fantastic thing, but as armed conflict goes it's a lot less bloody than most wars.

It was also infinitesimally less brutal than the history of British conflict in Ireland. The republican armed rebellions got a lot more vicious in their approach, but against that enemy who could blame them?

So, to summarise - if an Irish person 'serving the British occupation' shot an unarmed Clare-man going about his lawful way they deserve castigation.....

.......but if an aristocratic Brit in service of the nascent Irish Republic shoots an unarmed Clare-man going about his lawful way they deserve a triumph?

Don't get me wrong, I think Countess Markievicz's political achievements should be commemorated, but I'm with JFK on this one - lets have the truth so her contribution to the country's poltical life can be properly assessed and due credit given.....not the myth.

OldMrBrennan83

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timthumbni

Patww79 wrote: »

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Spoken like a true armchair republican that post... the word tosser springs to mind....

Mod-Banned

OldMrBrennan83

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elperello

Zebra3 wrote: »

Do you think those coppers gave a toss about anyone else while serving the British occupation?

I was more thinking about the reaction of the present day London Met Police who guard the Palace of Westminster.

But seeing as you ask.

Just picture your average Dublin policeman out and about on that fateful day.
He's watching out for overloaded carts, beggars, or maybe young scallywags stealing bulls eyes from a sweet shop.
Suddenly someone rushes up and plugs him shouting War or whatever.
There he is, gone for all eternity and the other side get redemption and commemoration.

That's the beauty of history it's multi-faceted.

timthumbni

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If you are typical then I’m glad too pat...