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REC

maxamillius

Just out of interest,, for anyone on here that is a qualified electrician but not a REC would you get a REC in to your own home to complete work?

I am a qualified electrician and am very experienced in domestic installations. I do not work on my tools at the moment so have no need to become a REC.

I am currently studying electrical engineering at night so don’t bother with nixers etc as I don’t have time.

However I could categorically say that I just could not bring myself to call an electrician into my own house to complete work for me, I am more then competent to do the work myself.

Just interested to get peoples views on this. Apologies if it’s been brought up before.

Cheers

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EHP

metricspaces wrote:

What are minor works? Is there a list anywhere of what minor works are?

Examples of Minor Electrical Works include the
following:
ï‚· Replacement of an electrical accessory such as light switch;
ï‚· Replacement or relocation of light fitting where the existing circuit is
retained; and
ï‚· Provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit\0

Minor
Electrical Works can be completed by either a REC or by a suitably trained person or
competent person, and do not legally require the issuance of Certificate. \0

The above is from CER/13/147\0 document, wonder who is deemed a competent person if something goes wrong?

metricspaces

EHP wrote: »

metricspaces wrote:

Can a homeowner ever get an electrician to work on their home who is a qualified electrician but not a REC?

Minor works only

What are minor works? Is there a list anywhere of what minor works are?

Without a list of things that are minor works a home owner (who is not well versed in things electrical) has no way of knowing when a non-reci electrician is sufficient.

EHP

If you are working in industrial you don't need to be registered, but be careful if you do register as a REC is bound by the same rules in all sectors. If you are a REC working in a factory and you complete controlled works you are required to cert these works.

"Controlled Electrical Works are works that require certification if completed by a REC. Most electrical works in commercial and industrial environments are covered under the scope of Controlled Electrical Works. While the Commission for Regulation of Utilities (CRU) recommend that RECs are hired to complete these works, it is not a legal requirement that only RECs carry out Controlled Electrical Works"

Works in a factory that need testing/certifying under controlled works will also do for becoming a REC

maxamillius

A fair argument from all sides. I think I would be happy if they made it easier for those of us who would like to complete electrical Works every now and then in our own homes and for family and friends.

As it stands that is next to impossible with recis rules.

It is not my main business although something I am highly interested and competent in hence the reason I am nearing completion of my electrical services degree.

For me it’s not about earning extra money by nixering, it’s more for the love of the trade and being able to help people out some of whom genuinely can’t afford to get a sparks in.

brightspark

EHP wrote: »

You can become a REC by doing smaller installs such as a new shower or extra circuits as you would be issuing a Cert 3 for these works.

Thanks for that information.
I didn't realise that relatively small jobs like those would count, I could easily arrange to get a shower installation or similar type of work.

EHP wrote: »

You can do the extra socket if adding to an existing circuit without being a REC, everything else listed requires you to be a REC.

I am all too aware of what I can and can't do without being a REC, that is why I would join. Strictly speaking I could only add a socket to a radial circuit, it wouldn't be a good to have to tell a potential customer that while I usually fix three phase equipment (which I would be trying to make the more significant business) I am unable to replace their faulty RCD!

Also I would worry that while not required for industrial work some H&S manager might decide that only RECs can work on their site, just as some insist on Safepass for all contractors even when not doing construction work

EHP

brightspark wrote:

Has anyone become a REC without doing installations?

You can become a REC by doing smaller installs such as a new shower or extra circuits as you would be issuing a Cert 3 for these works.

brightspark wrote:

Additionally I would like to be in a position to do the smaller domestic jobs such as extra sockets, showers, faulty distribution RCDs, Periodic inspections etc.

You can do the extra socket if adding to an existing circuit without being a REC, everything else listed requires you to be a REC.

Sleeper12 wrote:

For example if I am an REC & my employee is an electrician but not REC, then I can't issue a cert for him even if we were working next door to each other? Would we both need to be REC?

You can cert your employees work as long as it is for you and not a job there doing on the side for themselves. You must test this work yourself.

maxamillius wrote:

I accept all of your points, they make complete sense because reci are a business and thatâ€™s how business works. My point is that I think the safety aspect is more of a front and the sole aim is to increase revenue by making people pay an annual fee to them.

Business or not and I know there is issues with RECI but I do believe they are improving the industry, imagine if there was no governing body.

metricspaces wrote:

Can an electrician legally work on domestic jobs, self employed, without being a REC?

He can complete minor works only.

metricspaces wrote:

Can a homeowner ever get an electrician to work on their home who is a qualified electrician but not a REC?

Minor works only

2011

maxamillius wrote: »

This is the point I’m making, it’s about revenue and not about safety.

What do you expect?
A company provides a service for a fee. The customer gets a service and the company gets the fee from which they extract a profit. That is the way that successful companies operate.

I see your point but I absolutely would expect to be allowed do a job as and when I please for a family member or friend, I have trained long and hard and earned a national craft certificate therefore should be allowed work if I please without being subjected to a fee to a company.

During the Celtic Tiger the standard of electrical installation work in many instances was appalling. Quite a few RECs completely ignored many regulations, you don't have to look hard to see evidence of this. In my opinion this was frequently deliberately done in order to reduce cost of materials and to pay less for labour. I believe that they did this as they knew they could get away with it because RECI and the ECSSA did not adequately enforce standards. History will simply repeat itself electrical work is unregulated.

If that work for a family member or friend is free of charge that is my perogative, it would have no bearing on how safely I complete the work.

I am sure that this is true in your case, but can you honestly say the same for every electrician in Ireland?

No 6 monthly driving inspections or annual fees to a company.

Ok, lets use the driving analogy.
There are plenty of driving inspections. Clearly these checkpoints are necessary even for qualified drivers

If you are insured it should be down to your insurer to inspect your installations if they so wish.

Do you honestly think that it would be cheaper for an insurance company to do this than RECI? As an engineer I had to endure inspections by an insurance company in the past. These are not free, in fact they are very costly.

Absolutely no need for a company like reci to do this.

If another company were to take over this role how would that help?
Or do you believe that an unregulated industry would work?

My point is that I think the safety aspect is more of a front and the sole aim is to increase revenue by making people pay an annual fee to them.

I would like to think that their presence means that standards are higher, but obviously like any other business they want to make as much money as they can.

I have not always been RECI's biggest fan, but that doesn't mean that I feel that an organisation such as this is not required. I had an argument with an inspector because in my opinion he would not enforce several very fundamental rules (as per ET101) in my house. For example my cooker was wired in 1.5 mm sq. flex, fed from a 32A MCB and he insisted this was ok. I would like to think that things have improved which is may be due to the emergence of CER.

Dardania

2011 wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Wait til you qualify in engineering, and this shower will be all over you:
http://engineersireland.ie/membership/rates.aspx
Actually, just reading through those rates, the amount they charge to get chartered is obscene...

My employer pays my membership fee to Engineers Ireland and for a number training courses, so not a problem for me. EI also provide a number of free training events. As an engineer you are expected to participate in many approved CPD training courses.

The CPD event will be where RECI go next - great money spinner I suspect for EI!

maxamillius

brightspark wrote: »

Not strictly true, certain tasks can be carried out by anyone...even unqualified.

I was just giving the “in general” answer. Probably should have gone into a bit more detail.

brightspark

maxamillius wrote: »

The simple answer is no. An electrician must now be registered to be allowed work on any form of electrical installation. Just being a qualified electrician is not good enough.

Not strictly true, certain tasks can be carried out by anyone...even unqualified.

maxamillius

metricspaces wrote: »

Can an electrician legally work on domestic jobs, self employed, without being a REC?

I don't fully understand the difference between electricans that are REC and those that aren't.

Can a homeowner ever get an electrician to work on their home who is a qualified electrician but not a REC?

The impression I get is that if you were are a qualified electrician but not a REC then you work for someone else - either you work for REC on domestic jobs or you work on commercial jobs for a company.

The simple answer is no. An electrician must now be registered to be allowed work on any form of electrical installation. Just being a qualified electrician is not good enough.

metricspaces

Can an electrician legally work on domestic jobs, self employed, without being a REC?

I don't fully understand the difference between electricans that are REC and those that aren't.

Can a homeowner ever get an electrician to work on their home who is a qualified electrician but not a REC?

The impression I get is that if you were are a qualified electrician but not a REC then you work for someone else - either you work for REC on domestic jobs or you work on commercial jobs for a company.

maxamillius

2011 wrote: »

In your first post this seemed to be for your house only. Now friends and family too. If this was permitted for every electrician can you see how the Revenue Commissioners may loose out?

This is the point I’m making, it’s about revenue and not about safety. It is about my house but I also have friends and family as many do who would like work done from time to time.

The system is designed to accommodate those that intend to make a living from being a REC. You can’t expect a deviation from the norm to accommodate an occasional charitable act. Having said that you could email RECI and explain, who knows? It is unlikely they will conceed, but you have nothing to loose.

I see your point but I absolutely would expect to be allowed do a job as and when I please for a family member or friend, I have trained long and hard and earned a national craft certificate therefore should be allowed work if I please without being subjected to a fee to a company. If that work for a family member or friend is free of charge that is my perogative, it would have no bearing on how safely I complete the work.

No. Most electricians are not RECs, they work for RECs.
This applies in particular to the industrial sector. I spent many years working on my tools as an electrician and instrument tech and only a few of these as a REC before I moved into a very different type of electrical role.

A 2 year license? Would I have to pay for this? If not who would pay for it?
I have a National Craft Certificate that lasts a lifetime, what would happen that?

How much do you pay for a driving license? After completing training, a driving test, earning your competency to drive,getting insurance you pay a one off fee of about 50 Euro for your license which then allows you to drive as and when you please.revewal is After 10 years. No 6 monthly driving inspections or annual fees to a company.

So who pays the wages and other costs listed in my earlier post??

If you are insured it should be down to your insurer to inspect your installations if they so wish. Absolutely no need for a company like reci to do this.

Inspect for free?
Well they are a business so like any other business they want to make money.

Many feel that the main aim of restricted works legislation is to cut out the nixer merchants. This is why it has not been implemented in the industrial sector which is far more technically challenging with far higher risks.

I accept all of your points, they make complete sense because reci are a business and that’s how business works. My point is that I think the safety aspect is more of a front and the sole aim is to increase revenue by making people pay an annual fee to them.

meercat

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Am I right in saying that all electricians have to cert their own work?

For example if I am an REC & my employee is an electrician but not REC, then I can't issue a cert for him even if we were working next door to each other? Would we both need to be REC?

No,a rec can certify their employees work

[Deleted User]

Am I right in saying that all electricians have to cert their own work?

For example if I am an REC & my employee is an electrician but not REC, then I can't issue a cert for him even if we were working next door to each other? Would we both need to be REC?

2011

Dardania wrote: »

Wait til you qualify in engineering, and this shower will be all over you:
http://engineersireland.ie/membership/rates.aspx
Actually, just reading through those rates, the amount they charge to get chartered is obscene...

My employer pays my membership fee to Engineers Ireland and for a number training courses, so not a problem for me. EI also provide a number of free training events. As an engineer you are expected to participate in many approved CPD training courses.

Dardania

maxamillius wrote: »

I can understand the testing and verification course having to be reviewed and also insurance but the subscription fee to me just seems like another money making racket?!

Wait til you qualify in engineering, and this shower will be all over you:
http://engineersireland.ie/membership/rates.aspx
Actually, just reading through those rates, the amount they charge to get chartered is obscene...

brightspark

Has anyone become a REC without doing installations?

My background is largely industrial maintenance and I would have very little interest in establishing a business involving complete domestic installations and would instead aim to do industrial repair/service work for small companies for which being a REC may not be required but would be beneficial

Additionally I would like to be in a position to do the smaller domestic jobs such as extra sockets, showers, faulty distribution RCDs, Periodic inspections etc.

2011

maxamillius wrote: »

Ok fair enough point taken on that. Suppose someone who does not work on there tools everyday but now and then wants the option to help a family member or friend out

In your first post this seemed to be for your house only. Now friends and family too. If this was permitted for every electrician can you see how the Revenue Commissioners may loose out?

With a job they need doing, they are unable to do this because wanting to become a rec means you have to complete an installation that can be inspected within 6 months or your application will be rejected.

The system is designed to accommodate those that intend to make a living from being a REC. You can’t expect a deviation from the norm to accommodate an occasional charitable act. Having said that you could email RECI and explain, who knows? It is unlikely they will conceed, but you have nothing to loose.

Are we now telling apprentices in there first year that once you have put in the graft and served your time, passed all your exams, you will not be able to work as an electrician unless you pay an annual subscription fee to reci.

No. Most electricians are not RECs, they work for RECs.
This applies in particular to the industrial sector. I spent many years working on my tools as an electrician and instrument tech and only a few of these as a REC before I moved into a very different type of electrical role.

I think they would be far better off introducing a system whereby you prove you have a national qualification, a valid testing course, insurance and you are then given a license which you renew every say 2 years.

A 2 year license? Would I have to pay for this? If not who would pay for it?
I have a National Craft Certificate that lasts a lifetime, what would happen that?

No annual fee

So who pays the wages and other costs listed in my earlier post??

they can come and inspect within 6 months in order to validate your application to become a rec.

Inspect for free?

in my opinion it’s more about the money with reci then the safety aspect.

Well they are a business so like any other business they want to make money.

Many feel that the main aim of restricted works legislation is to cut out the nixer merchants. This is why it has not been implemented in the industrial sector which is far more technically challenging with far higher risks.

Stoner

maxamillius wrote:

Are we now telling apprentices in there first year that once you have put in the graft and served your time, passed all your exams, you will not be able to work as an electrician unless you pay an annual subscription fee to reci.

They are told that you can't set up their own business and operate without being a member of safe electric.

They can work for a rec. They just operate outside the tax umbrella as ultimately that's what happens.

maxamillius

2011 wrote: »

Off the top of my head they provide training, advice, inspectors (necessary to enforce standards as members have been known to go rogue), various admin duties, provide industry updates as well as representing the interests of their membership. I don’t think that the membership fee is particularly high, but am open to correction.

It is very easy for any qualified electrician to join so not a big deal really. A REC is not required to be any more qualified, experienced or “expert” than any other electrician that has the testing and verification course.

Ok fair enough point taken on that. Suppose someone who does not work on there tools everyday but now and then wants the option to help a family member or friend out With a job they need doing, they are unable to do this because wanting to become a rec means you have to complete an installation that can be inspected within 6 months or your application will be rejected.

I personally wouldn’t mind helping out people on occasions but couldn’t guarantee this would be within the 6 month time frame that they specify.

Are we now telling apprentices in there first year that once you have put in the graft and served your time, passed all your exams, you will not be able to work as an electrician unless you pay an annual subscription fee to reci.

I think they would be far better off introducing a system whereby you prove you have a national qualification, a valid testing course, insurance and you are then given a license which you renew every say 2 years. No annual fee and no obligation to have a job completed that they can come and inspect within 6 months in order to validate your application to become a rec. in my opinion it’s more about the money with reci then the safety aspect.

2011

maxamillius wrote: »

Yes to RECI. What exactly do they do to warrant the subscription fees? Not arguing it, genuinely interested.

If a spark has insurance and has a valid testing and verification course I see no reason why they should have to pay a subscription fee to a company?

Off the top of my head they provide training, advice, inspectors (necessary to enforce standards as members have been known to go rogue), various admin duties, provide industry updates as well as representing the interests of their membership. I don’t think that the membership fee is particularly high, but am open to correction.

It is very easy for any qualified electrician to join so not a big deal really. A REC is not required to be any more qualified, experienced or “expert” than any other electrician that has the testing and verification course.

maxamillius

2011 wrote: »

To RECI if you are a REC, is that what you mean?
Of course, they are a business and so they have running costs such as wages. Just like any other business they want to make a profit.

Yes to RECI. What exactly do they do to warrant the subscription fees? Not arguing it, genuinely interested.

If a spark has insurance and has a valid testing and verification course I see no reason why they should have to pay a subscription fee to a company?

2011

maxamillius wrote: »

Do you not pay an annual fee? I thought I had read that but could be wrong and if so my whole point goes out the window!!

To RECI if you are a REC, is that what you mean?
Of course, they are a business and so they have running costs such as wages. Just like any other business they want to make a profit.

maxamillius

2011 wrote: »

Subscription fee ?

Do you not pay an annual fee? I thought I had read that but could be wrong and if so my whole point goes out the window!!

2011

Subscription fee ?

maxamillius

I can understand the testing and verification course having to be reviewed and also insurance but the subscription fee to me just seems like another money making racket?!

maxamillius

Stoner wrote: »

Hi max we have a rule on this sorry. It's against the law for you to do this.
As a result we've asked that nobody asks for certs or to have their work certified.

It would kill most electricians to call someone in to wire their own house, but we can't use boards to circumvent that rule sorry.

Best of luck with your studies BTW

No prob at all completely understand, just wanted to see if other qualified non registered sparks felt the same. Thanks

[Deleted User]

Tuco88 wrote: »

I think we all know the anwer to this...

Yesterday, completed 3 loop checks, interlock check, and calibration of level and temp transmitter on a set of large hydrogen tanks.

If done wrong the lower cork harbour area will look like surface of the moon, same goes for just replacing a simple lamp. But its fine i could be a postman for all we know, but i sign my cert with a big smile and a thumbs up.

Is this why my post was late??

Tuco88

I think we all know the anwer to this...

Yesterday, completed 3 loop checks, interlock check, and calibration of level and temp transmitter on a set of large hydrogen tanks.

If done wrong the lower cork harbour area will look like surface of the moon, same goes for just replacing a simple lamp. But its fine i could be a postman for all we know, but i sign my cert with a big smile and a thumbs up.