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Where did you spend the recession?

Gone Drinking

I know a lot of people that went abroad when the recession hit. Some have dual passports now.

Most have settled in their new countries, they are planning to stay where they are but like the option to move around with either passport. If asked do they ever see the bottom falling out of the economy, of the country they're currently in they'll respond with "Sure if things ever go to **** here, we'll just go back to Ireland".

For those of us who stuck around, paid through our bollocks in Taxation, so this country wouldn't fold in on itself; why did we bother? We could have upped and left for a better life during the bad times.. well because if everyone did that, there wouldn't be a country to come back to.

Personally, i think there should be a passport levy. If you own an Irish passport and wish to keep use of it but are working and paying tax outside of Ireland for 3 years or more, you need to pay an annual charge. Something like 3 grand.

A lot of people who did stay here worked for less wages, in worse conditions, because it was an employers market in Ireland during the recession. As things start to pick up again here, we might see an influx of the fair weather workers coming back; maybe the government should introduce a scheme by where people who stuck around during the bad times should have first dibs at jobs over those who pulled a runner? Just an idea..

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Princess Consuela Bananahammock

_Dara_ wrote: »

Eh, it takes ages to become a naturalised citizen in many countries. In the US, you're probably talking decades. I don't think it's easy to become an Australian citizen either. One girl I know became one but she had to demonstrate the her long-term partner who she was planning to marry was Australian.

For many who emigrated, Ireland is still their only country of citizenship.

Oh and by emigrating, they helped reduced the dole bill. Unless you think having more people sitting around on their hoops in Ireland, unable to build their careers, is a good thing?

Well, as was pointed out in his last thread, if the Irish abroad are paying taxes and subsidies for the upkeep of services, then it stands to reason that the Irish abroad will of course be able to avail of said services abroad, including social welfare.

Mint Sauce

I hold two passports, an Irish Passport, and a GB one. If I was forced to pay into a UK pot, I would be expecting a vote in all UK elections, recently lost my vote there as have lived out of the country too long, I would also expect to be able to walk into any GP, A&E, NHS Dentist, etc without having to complete any additional paper work, compared to GB/NI residents, and collect my full state pension. Currently, if I want my pension from there, I can make voluntary contributions to top up my National Insurance that I once paid there.

I would expect something similar from my the Irish Government and departments, If I was living abroad with my Irish Passport and had to make contributions.

But in answer to your question OP, I spent a year of it, applying for jobs and courses, after being made redundant. Thankfully back in the system now about 6 years, but still getting little for my contributions from my payslip. Other than the vote thing, for all its worth.

Baron Kurtz

c_man wrote: »

I think the government can learn a lot from the last recession. When the next one hits, all unemployed people should be cryogenically frozen in vast "citizen reserve" underground silos. They can then be thawed when the economy heats up to take the new jobs available.

No social agitation, no misery, no dole, no dole-bashers. Just 100,000's of people frozen and ready for work.

No boss, no bus, no rain, no train...

_Dara_

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Well, as was pointed out in his last thread, if the Irish abroad are paying taxes and subsidies for the upkeep of services, then it stands to reason that the Irish abroad will of course be able to avail of said services abroad, including social welfare.

But with double taxation agreements in place with all the main countries Irish people emigrate to, pretty much no Irish people working abroad pay any tax here. So I don't think they can claim benefits in Ireland while away, no. Plus, I think there'd be residency requirements too, like spending a certain amount of days a year in Ireland.

Fliucharbith

Generally speaking, the united states does this already. If you work abroad you pay tax back to America. If you work in a tax-free environment, the lone exception is if you are an American, they'll pay tax.

Its a very tricky area. On the one hand I cannot justify that staff we need in the country (like doctors and nurses) get their basically free education here and then head straight off to another country. Talk about a waste of money and effort. If you have benefitted from reduced/free education there should be a mandatory amount of time where you have to contribute back to Ireland.

Then on the other hand what are you supposed to do if you cant get work here? Just sit it out and watch your life drain away?

That's the problem with globalisation and capitalism, it benefits very few in the long run. When you allow socialisation (free education) to exist with capitalism (taking what you can and legging it) it leads to a failed system. They just don't go together. Unsustainable is the word.

Same with free houses for some and eye-watering prices for everyone else. They just don't go together.

Same with having a country and allowing people to come and go as they please. It doesn't work, and time will bear that out. We are on fast-track to becoming a mini-America, a relatively small number of people living in "gated" areas surrounded by a sea of poverty. (Or in a global context, one or two countries that are filthy rich while all the others become hell-holes)

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

_Dara_ wrote: »

But with double taxation agreements in place with all the main countries Irish people emigrate to, pretty much no Irish people working abroad pay any tax here. So I don't think they can claim benefits in Ireland while away, no. Plus, I think there'd be residency requirements too, like spending a certain amount of days a year in Ireland.

Exactly - works both ways. I pay tax in Germany, I avail of German services. The EU would step in before any of the OP's plans came tofruition and rightfully so.

_Dara_

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Exactly - works both ways. I pay tax in Germany, I avail of German services. The EU would step in before any of the OP's plans came tofruition and rightfully so.

Oh right, I picked you up wrong, thought you meant they'd be able to claim benefits in Ireland.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

_Dara_ wrote: »

Oh right, I picked you up wrong, thought you meant they'd be able to claim benefits in Ireland.

Was being a bit sarcastic - was trying to point out to the (ironically suddenly absent) OP that the point of paying taxes is to fund services you might need in the future.

endacl

I stayed here. I elected not to participate in the recession.

Billy86

I lived in both Canada and Australia during the some of the recession. I also lived and worked in Ireland for some and was working and paying taxes for over two years ago. What do I do OP? Please help me figure this out!!

Billy86

Gone Drinking wrote: »

3 grand is peanuts to those I know who are working and earning abroad. Those aren't even professional jobs..

What non professional positions are these where €3,000 is peanuts, and why was I not informed of these roles!? :eek:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Fliucharbith wrote: »

Generally speaking, the united states does this already. If you work abroad you pay tax back to America. If you work in a tax-free environment, the lone exception is if you are an American, they'll pay tax.

Its a very tricky area. On the one hand I cannot justify that staff we need in the country (like doctors and nurses) get their basically free education here and then head straight off to another country. Talk about a waste of money and effort. If you have benefitted from reduced/free education there should be a mandatory amount of time where you have to contribute back to Ireland.

IS third level edication free?

The problem is competition. If you're a recently qualified and talented doctor, then Ireland is competing with other countries for your talent. And if it's not an attractive option, people will go elsewhere.

The sense of entitlement is that people should be greatful and should stay. This does nothing to improve atractiveness.

If you were a recently qualified teacher, would you want to stay here considering the animosity towards teachers from a lot of people?

Fliucharbith

Just to add an anecdote to my previous post, theres a family that I know and they are a prime example (in my opinion) of taking unfair advantage.

There are 3 siblings in the family, all educated to doctorate level, and all for free (goes to show how you can circumvent certain things). Just a quick calculation, I'd say they have received about 500'000 euro worth of education at the expense of the country (read: the rest of us).

One of them had a part-time job working for the parents for a couple of years, the other 2 never worked a day in their lives here. They are what you consider quite well-off financially, own several expensive properties around the country and Dublin, invested in stock markets and the like.

They also happen to have American passports. As soon as they finished with their education they were out of here like a hot snot, there wasn't even a vague consideration of them staying here.

(As if they weren't taking the piss enough, one of them somehow managed to live in a family home while on social welfare, while finishing their education!)

Now they are pulling in more money in america than they would get here, and it is practically guaranteed that when they have children of their own they will be back here, stick the kids in our education system, and repeat the whole scenario again.

There are two ways you can look at this. Firstly you can look at it solely from an individual point of view, ie selfish "yeah, I'd do the same if I could!". But if you take that attitude then theres not much point in hearing anything you have to say about anything, you'll act solely in your own interest and that's that.

The second way you can look at it is from a societal point of view, and I don't think it would be reaching to say that kind of behaviour is utterly leech-like. Its parasitic.

Its difficult to balance "me" versus "all of you", but if we don't balance it the vast majority of us are going to end up very bad in the long-run.

server down

Gone Drinking wrote: »

The leavers get so defensive and upset because they know in their heart of hearts, they did what was best of themselves; selfishness got this country into trouble and it got people out of trouble also

Everyone's story is different. I didn't have a mortgage or borrow heavily. But there are people who did and upp'd sticks. They've had their cake and ate it, bit unfair no?

Countries revoke passports/visas all the time. I guess I'm suggesting that it's not good enough to just be born in Ireland to be Irish anymore.

Like I said, if everyone reacted the way the leavers did, there wouldn't be a country, we probably would never have even been a republic to begin with.

Why is leaving “easy” and why do you think that people staying would have been tough. The tough, rather than stay and scratch their behinds, left.

Fliucharbith

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

IS third level edication free?

The problem is competition. If you're a recently qualified and talented doctor, then Ireland is competing with other countries for your talent. And if it's not an attractive option, people will go elsewhere.

The sense of entitlement is that people should be greatful and should stay. This does nothing to improve atractiveness.

If you were a recently qualified teacher, would you want to stay here considering the animosity towards teachers from a lot of people?

Up until not so long ago, yeah, I think its fair to say it was free for the majority of people. The increase in costs over the last short while is simply the result of investing money in someone that doesn't contribute back. Of course you'll have to start cutting it back, its the equivalent of burning money.

The problem IS competition, youre right. But probably not in the way you think of it. If I remember correctly, the united states has approximately 30% of all educated health workers in the world. Its because they are feeding off countries like ours, not having to pay for education for outsiders but taking all the profit from them once they "attract" them over.

Imagine running a business like that (very apt for America). You don't have to invest or buy raw materials, they come knocking at your door and you take them in. Then you can out-cost the competition and become even MORE attractive to outsiders. Whether the chicken came before the egg is moot, its a disastrous state of maintaining an equitable society. (Equally, that's why its no problem for them to charge ridiculous amounts of money for their own peoples education, they don't need them all that much.)

"competition" in many ways is a byword for capitalism, it just sounds nicer.

Or in other words, this is how the rich are getting richer and poor becoming poorer, under the guise of "competition".

As for attitudes to teachers, I don't know much about it.

_Dara_

Fliucharbith wrote: »

Just to add an anecdote to my previous post, theres a family that I know and they are a prime example (in my opinion) of taking unfair advantage.

There are 3 siblings in the family, all educated to doctorate level, and all for free (goes to show how you can circumvent certain things). Just a quick calculation, I'd say they have received about 500'000 euro worth of education at the expense of the country (read: the rest of us).

The doctorate wouldn't necessary be free. If it is, it's because they'd get a stipend but those are pretty darn low, considering that a PhD is a job essentially. You put in crazy amounts of hours to complete it, it's only right to get a little money to do so. And it is a really small amount of money in a lot of cases. A lot of scientific discoveries are achieved on the backs of low-paid PhD students.

Gone Drinking

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

(ironically suddenly absent).

Sorry I couldn't respond quick enough, I'm currently in work.. paying tax, in Ireland!

I feel the leavers have had it a bit too handy in some respects (not all, not everyone). A lot have had a great holiday, earning good money whilst other Irish stayed at home and kept this ship floating.

Whilst some are having their cake and eating it, many here haven't had any cake, got nothing but are still cleaning the dishes.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Gone Drinking wrote: »

Sorry I couldn't respond quick enough, I'm currently in work.. paying tax, in Ireland!

I feel the leavers have had it a bit too handy in some respects (not all, not everyone). A lot have had a great holiday, earning good money whilst other Irish stayed at home and kept this ship floating.

Whilst some are having their cake and eating it, many here haven't had any cake, got nothing but are still cleaning the dishes.

I know. You've said, several times. And I delt with the cake analogy, too by the way.

What you still haven't said is why people who left should fund a ship they no longer sail on.

_Dara_

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I know. You've said, several times. And I delt with the cake analogy, too by the way.

What you still haven't said is why people who left should fund a ship they no longer sail on.

Especially as, by leaving the country, they helped reduce the welfare bill by not staying in Ireland claiming the dole when they couldn't find employment.

server down

Gone Drinking wrote: »

Sorry I couldn't respond quick enough, I'm currently in work.. paying tax, in Ireland!

I feel the leavers have had it a bit too handy in some respects (not all, not everyone). A lot have had a great holiday, earning good money whilst other Irish stayed at home and kept this ship floating.

I’ll type this slowly. They. Helped. Keep. The. Ship. Afloat. By. Leaving.

Mrs OBumble

Gone Drinking wrote: »

Personally, i think there should be a passport levy. If you own an Irish passport and wish to keep use of it but are working and paying tax outside of Ireland for 3 years or more, you need to pay an annual charge. Something like 3 grand.

Does this idea include the many thousands who have an Irish passport because they are entitled to it thru parents / grandparents, but who have never actually set foot in Ireland? That was me for about 10 years - just because it made travelling easier.

There is a regular charge (the 10-year renewal fee) for these folks. And holding the passport does increase they chance that they'll come here as tourists at some point.

Re your original question: I spent the recession here - because my partner had some work even when I didn't.

I'm not sure that staying is harder though: Remember all those foreigners who come here because (allegedly) our welfare is so much higher ....

MilesMorales1

I was in Dublin. It was depressing. Still is.

Beasty

Spent some of it in the extension. Spent some in the car showrooms. Spent quite a lot in bike shops.

Fortunately I still have plenty left to spend....

diomed

Press_Start wrote: »

This is by no means a boom. Sure jobs are easier to come by and things are looking up. But the country is still crawling out of the sewer.

In a boom people think things are back to normal.
This is a boom. There is almost full employment.
The US Dow Jones index hit a nine year high yesterday, and it has been hitting highs dozens of times in the past few years (69 new record highs since the 2016 US Presidential election).

corner of hells

Gone Drinking wrote: »

MojoRisinnnn wrote: »

so if you didn't like it you should have just left.

Imagine saying that to the people who died fighting for our right to a republic. The country would have literally collapsed if everyone ran because it was the EASIER thing to do.

I see a problem with your post unless you can communicate with the dead.

"Is that you Padraig Pearse ?"
"Yes ".
"The one with the gunner eye ?"

harry Bailey esq

begbysback wrote: »

I take it you spent it in the pub?

His username would suggest so, but if he's of legal age and not intoxicated then he had every right to spend it in the pub, if that was his wont.

Gone Drinking

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

What you still haven't said is why people who left should fund a ship they no longer sail on.

You'll be paying to use the boat whenever you like.. now you just pop by whenever you want, free of charge!

Maybe a different colour passport for those who decided to run away during the bad times? So as everyone knows "oh look, its a leaver" :pac:

server down

Gone Drinking wrote: »

You'll be paying to use the boat whenever you like.. now you just pop by whenever you want, free of charge!

Maybe a different colour passport for those who decided to run away during the bad times? So as everyone knows "oh look, its a leaver" :pac:

Can you explain why you think the "leavers" who didnt get a job here somehow harmed you. Clearly it helped people here as it reduced the taxation costs and the costs of housing and other social welfare costs. Or do you think that people left good jobs in the pubic service (hint: they didn't).

You are either trolling or you dont understand simple basic economics or both.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Gone Drinking wrote: »

You'll be paying to use the boat whenever you like.. now you just pop by whenever you want, free of charge!

Maybe a different colour passport for those who decided to run away during the bad times? So as everyone knows "oh look, its a leaver" :pac:

Thomas Andrews: In an hour or so, all of this will be at the bottom of the Atlantic.
Cal Hockley: What?
Thomas Andrews: Please, tell only who you must. I don't want to be responsible for a panic. And get to a boat quickly, don't wait. You remember what I told you about the boats?
Rose: Yes... I understand.

:pac::pac:

.......

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