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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - MOD NOTE POST #4781

Steve

Continuing on from the previous thread....

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Bazzo

So Aki is a better defender than Henshaw then?

awec

molloyjh wrote: »

Which would be a good point if you were talking about slotting 1 player into a position where we needed him. Which is what happened when Henshaw started playing 12.

However what we are now talking about is switching 2 players around when there is absolutely no need to. That’s a completely different thing.

How?

I think people are just making up excuses now to be honest.

Former Former

awec wrote: »

How?

I think people are just making up excuses now to be honest.

Excuses for what?

When Henshaw got his break on the international scene, it was a case of playing 12 or not playing at all. Kearney was nailed on at 15 and Payne was nailed on at 13. But D'arcy was injured and shoving on.

So Henshaw played 12 and has been unassailable first choice there for three years. Three years. He is now the nailed on player.

Is Joe going to suddenly change his mind about something that has worked so well for him?

ClanofLams

Aki is, at the very least, equally as comfortable at 12 and has probably played there as much if not more for Connacht. He plays outside Ronaldson but usually inside Griffin, Farrell, and previously Parata/Henshaw.

So really the topic is about moving Henshaw.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

Excuses for what?

When Henshaw got his break on the international scene, it was a case of playing 12 or not playing at all. Kearney was nailed on at 15 and Payne was nailed on at 13. But D'arcy was injured and shoving on.

So Henshaw played 12 and has been unassailable first choice there for three years. Three years. He is now the nailed on player.

Is Joe going to suddenly change his mind about something that has worked so well for him?

Payne was nailed on at 13? Hardly. Payne made his Ireland debut at 13 beside Henshaw at 12. Unless I am mistaken, Payne's debut for Ireland was also Henshaw's first time starting at 12 for Ireland. In fact, I am pretty sure the original plan was to play Henshaw at 13 as that's where he trained, and I remember puff pieces from O'Driscoll etc leading up to that match saying that Henshaw would take the 13 jersey for years to come etc etc.

Yea, he's been unassailable, fair enough. Not really saying much when you consider the options available the past few years, but he has been consistently picked none the less.

That said, I don't see how this is relevant for looking forward. Why wouldn't the coach look at a different position for him if he could contribute more to the team and use more of his talent? Why wouldn't the coach try an alternative combination that may work better?

Ok, perhaps it's not really a fair comparison given the standards are much higher but Henshaw enjoys very high praise in Ireland yet looked fairly mediocre with the Lions and didn't come within a sniff of getting a test spot (obvious injury problems aside). Perhaps we need to dial down the praise a tad.

I'm not hugely bothered if we play him at 12 really, I just don't understand why so many people are so against him at 13.

irishbucsfan

If Aki becomes a top level international at 12 then Henshaw could absolutely play 13.

But if Aki isn't then Henshaw will stay at 12 for the same reason he's always been there: he's an elite 12 and we don't have any others.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

How?

Are you actually serious? You’re asking me how taking 1 player and slotting him into a position of need while not moving anyone else in any way is different from slotting a player into a position he doesn’t play for his province and moving a player who plays in that position for province and country to a position he rarely plays (and doesn’t play for his country) are different.

I mean it’s all there in black and white. I’m not sure how you can’t see the difference.

Neil3030

Stick Ringrose on the wing, then we can have Bundee, Henshaw and Ringrose all in the same team.

prawnsambo

Neil3030 wrote: »

Stick Ringrose on the wing, then we can have Bundee, Henshaw and Ringrose all in the same team.

And just to make all that happen, Zebo took one for the team and headed off to France.

ClanofLams

molloyjh wrote: »

Are you actually serious? You’re asking me how taking 1 player and slotting him into a position of need while not moving anyone else in any way is different from slotting a player into a position he doesn’t play for his province and moving a player who plays in that position for province and country to a position he rarely plays (and doesn’t play for his country) are different.

I mean it’s all there in black and white. I’m not sure how you can’t see the difference.

In six league games this season, Aki has played 12 three times and 13 three times. It's certainly not accurate to say he rarely plays 12.

RichieRich89

Henshaw defends the 12 channel better than he defends the outside centre channel, but attacking from 13 allows him to utilise more of his talents. So what's the solution? Have Aki and Henshaw switch positions between attacking and defending?

Dog Botherer

RichieRich89 wrote: »

Henshaw defends the 12 channel better than he defends the outside centre channel, but attacking from 13 allows him to utilise more of his talents. So what's the solution? Have Aki and Henshaw switch positions between attacking and defending?

Yes.

molloyjh

ClanofLams wrote: »

In six league games this season, Aki has played 12 three times and 13 three times. It's certainly not accurate to say he rarely plays 12.

Fair enough, didn’t realise that. Still, it doesn’t make sense to reshuffle the midfield, which is ultimately what people are talking about. If we were bringing Aki in the same way we brought Henshaw in we’d be slotting him straight into 13.

swiwi_

No brainer for me: Aki 12, Henshaw 13. Ringrose injured makes it simple. Although I like what McCloskey has been bringing recently.

(Saying Henshaw 12, Aki 13 would be liking playing Rob Kearney 14 and Tommy Bowe 15 - why select players out of their best positions?)

My €0.02

Wegians89

I'd love to see a training match with 12. Bundee 13 ringrose vs 12 scannell 13 henshaw

Former Former

awec wrote: »

I'm not hugely bothered if we play him at 12 really, I just don't understand why so many people are so against him at 13.

And I don't understand how people are so convinced his best position is 13 when he hasn't played there in years and never at a particularly high level, whereas he's shown himself to be a world-class 12 for Leinster, Ireland and Lions.

I also don't understand how people can think Joe Schmidt is the man to suddenly make unforced changes to something that he thinks is working well. What about the last four seasons would give anyone that idea?

I don't mind where he plays either tbh, I just think he will play at 12.

irishbucsfan

Former Former wrote: »

And I don't understand how people are so convinced his best position is 13 when he hasn't played there in years and never at a particularly high level, whereas he's shown himself to be a world-class 12 for Leinster, Ireland and Lions.

I also don't understand how people can think Joe Schmidt is the man to suddenly make unforced changes to something that he thinks is working well. What about the last four seasons would give anyone that idea?

I don't mind where he plays either tbh, I just think he will play at 12.

100%, its a bee that people have in their bonnet. The grass is always greener, Bob Casey syndrome.

awec

Former Former wrote: »

And I don't understand how people are so convinced his best position is 13 when he hasn't played there in years and never at a particularly high level, whereas he's shown himself to be a world-class 12 for Leinster, Ireland and Lions.

I also don't understand how people can think Joe Schmidt is the man to suddenly make unforced changes to something that he thinks is working well. What about the last four seasons would give anyone that idea?

I don't mind where he plays either tbh, I just think he will play at 12.

When did he show himself to be world class with the lions? Are we just making things up entirely now? He was probably the biggest flop of the Irish contingent.

He has been good at 12, but as ever you’d think he’s been the greatest revelation in the history of the game to read this forum.

To be honest, I suspect if Garry Ringrose didn’t play 13 for Leinster there wouldn’t be half the amount of annoyance at the notion of Henshaw being wasted at 12.

Schmidt has dropped players entirely during his tenure that people on here deemed untouchable, Murray and Toner spring to mind and I’m sure there are more, why do people think Henshaw has to be at 12 forever?

Former Former

awec wrote: »

When did he show himself to be world class with the lions? Are we just making things up entirely now? He was probably the biggest flop of the Irish contingent.

He has been good at 12, but as ever you’d think he’s been the greatest revelation in the history of the game to read this forum.

To be honest, I suspect if Garry Ringrose didn’t play 13 for Leinster there wouldn’t be half the amount of annoyance at the notion of Henshaw being wasted at 12.

Schmidt has dropped players entirely during his tenure that people on here deemed untouchable, Murray and Toner spring to mind and I’m sure there are more, why do people think Henshaw has to be at 12 forever?

I don't think that's called for tbh. Debate the points or don't.

No, Henshaw didn't have a great tour. But he was on the tour on the basis of his performances at 12.

I dunno, I just don't see what people are basing the "13 is his best position" on.

Bridge93

I would've thought it obvious that the presence of a high quality 13 would limit the annoyance of another player not playing there. You get your best players on the pitch of which Ringrose and Henshaw are two

Largely don't mind who plays where out of Henshaw and Aki. Need to see if Aki is picked to start first. He's the standout candidate so you'd imagine so

irishbucsfan

Nothing to do with Henshaw being the greatest revelation in the history of the game ffs, he's just a very very good 12 for Ireland. We don't have any other players at 12 near his standard, maybe Scannell can get there but he does lack the size. That's why I said if Aki can show himself to be a similar standard at 12 then we could see the switch.

I also agree with FF that people are really using their imagination quite a bit when talking about how good he is at 13.

molloyjh

Former Former wrote: »

I dunno, I just don't see what people are basing the "13 is his best position" on.

Because he has more time and space on the ball and clearly looks better because what he does is more obvious. But just because his skills are more obvious there it doesn't mean that's his best position. It just means its easier to see. As it is for pretty much every single player out there. In which case why even bother with an inside centre at all.

connachta

ClanofLams wrote: »

Aki is, at the very least, equally as comfortable at 12 and has probably played there as much if not more for Connacht. He plays outside Ronaldson but usually inside Griffin, Farrell, and previously Parata/Henshaw.

So really the topic is about moving Henshaw.

He now plays outside Ronaldson Farrell and sometimes Griffin plays 12 too.
Keane saw Bundee needs more space to express himself. And Akhi the newcomer to cover for Aki in November, is a 13 profile too.
Aki is slowly becoming an outside centre in Connacht. That might be a sign he will be so with Ireland

ClanofLams

connachta wrote: »

He now plays outside Ronaldson Farrell and sometimes Griffin.
Keane saw he needs more space to express himself. And Akhi the newcomer to cover for Aki in November, is a 13 profile too.
Aki is slowly becoming an outside centre in Connacht. That might be a sign he will be with Ireland

He has played both inside and outside Farrell this season. Keane is still trying things out, Aki's best position is 12 though.

From what I have seen of Pita Ahki, admittedly only clips online and everyone has a good highlight reel but I doubt the summit of his ambition is to cover for Aki. I would expect commentators to have to deal with Aki Ahki combo later in the season.

In any case on that basis, Vasiteri was a huge 12 so I don't really think Pita Ahkis preferred position is indicative of anything.

connachta

ClanofLams wrote: »

connachta wrote: »

He now plays outside Ronaldson Farrell and sometimes Griffin.
Keane saw he needs more space to express himself. And Akhi the newcomer to cover for Aki in November, is a 13 profile too.
Aki is slowly becoming an outside centre in Connacht. That might be a sign he will be with Ireland

He has played both inside and outside Farrell this season. Keane is still trying things out, Aki's best position is 12 though.

From what I have seen of Pita Ahki, admittedly only clips online and everyone has a good highlight reel but I doubt the summit of his ambition is to cover for Aki. I would expect commentators to have to deal with Aki Ahki combo later in the season.

In any case on that basis, Vasiteri was a huge 12 so I don't really think Pita Ahkis preferred position is indicative of anything.

This Week-end was another sign, even Griffin who's been mainly a 13 barring injury covers, was put inside Aki against Worcester.

And sadly Pita is a cover for Aki, for now at least. I saw 3 full-games of him this September/Oct. He's a very very weak tackler. He'll play 13 when Bundee is off. And we'll see how the staff can make him progress....

ClanofLams

connachta wrote: »

This Week-end was another sign, even Griffin who's been mainly a 13 barring injury covers, was put inside Aki against Worcester.

And sadly Pita is a cover for Aki, for now at least. I saw 3 full-games of him this September/Oct. He's a very very weak tackler. He'll play 13 when Bundee is off. And we'll see how the staff can make him progress....

He has been split between both positions pretty much evenly this season, I don't see how you can say he's turning into a 13. But we will see over the season.

They were looking for another centre, it was Vasiteri who is strictly a 12, now its Ahki who favours 13 because of Vasiteris ban. Clearly there wasn't any great concern whether it was a 12/13 they signed.

wp_rathead

Aki has been playing 13 because Connacht's other 13s simply aren't good enough while we have a few decent 12s in Farrell and Ronaldson (and Robb when available)
Don't think it's any Schmidt Masterplan

connachta

wp_rathead wrote: »

Aki has been playing 13 because Connacht's other 13s simply aren't good enough while we have a few decent 12s in Farrell and Ronaldson (and Robb when available)
Don't think it's any Schmidt Masterplan

maybe but it's Keane masterplan. Moving Griffin inside is a clear sign Bundee is doing the other way.
And I think he's right on the Connacht POV Aki needs space.
For Ireland, I'm neutral whether he has be 12 or 13 !

ionadnapóca

connachta wrote: »

maybe but it's Keane masterplan. Moving Griffin inside is a clear sign Bundee is doing the other way.
And I think he's right on the Connacht POV Aki needs space.
For Ireland, I'm neutral whether he has be 12 or 13 !

Aki 12 Henshaw 13 for Nov please. It will get the best out of both and the Irish attack

timaru89

When is the squad announcement?