#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. But then there's also clothing/bra's which seek to draw the attention of others to that area.

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them. If she doesn't want that attention, wear a coat, or some other article of clothing that covers her breasts. Or wear a bra that doesn't emphasize their size/shape through her clothes. It's like the women who wear a top, and the bra can be seen very easily through that top, and then complains that men are staring.

Women do have a responsibility for their own appearance. If you're going to dress sexy, you're going to get attention. Postive and negative attention.

It will be clear what womens' opinions will be on this

but can I ask what other men feel about this opinion.?

If a friend or colleague expressed these views, what would you say?

I think it's very relevant to the whole argument.

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes, but because you are encumbered by external gonads this doesn't carry much weight.

What I object to is expanding the definition of "sexual assault" to encompass any instance where a woman "feels uncomfortable." As just one example:

https://twitter.com/sarahbutler1981/status/921283042580328448

Staring at someone's breasts might be rude, but it is not sexual assault. All of this #MeToo bandwagoning does genuine victims no favors at all.

Nail meet head. But increasingly opinions and emotions make facts more irrelevant. Classic line from one of the tweets: You wouldn't understand, must be male. Perfect example of the adolescent polarising fcukwittery we're dealing with more and more.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Women have long been treated as objects with no one caring about their thoughts feelings or emotions. You can argue this point,

I would but it would be like a broken pencil; pointless. The current victim narrative is too strong.

but look at all the victim blaming in Ireland alone, a queue of men shaking a sexual assaulter's hand in court,

One case, 40 men, the rest of the society, literally millions of men and women were rightfully up in arms about it. If it had only gotten a paragraph in the back pages you would have a point, but it didn't and you don't.

The men that didn't actually commit sexual assault, what did you do to help us while we were all suffering. What did you do?

In two cases that I won't expand on(and they weren't "some guy ogled my tits) I helped. Because I knew about them up close. Women in general. I dunno how many times this has to be said, but men aren't psychic. Nor should we have to be.

Actually, that leads to another angle. Women as a general rule are much more likely to expect to be helped and supported by society. And they plainly are(and get pissed off when they're not accommodated). Men as a general rule are much more "on their own", seen as and seeing themselves as independent entities with more agency and responsibility. And again society provably treats them that way. On damned near every level. As does current "feminism" which is the joke. Ever wonder these days why the male suicide rate across all ages and demographics is much higher than the female? When I hear of some women going on about how they're so independent and didn't look for that much help and pulled themselves up to where they are today, I usually think and often point out; Really? That's how most men have to deal with life.

Women have been treated like **** for decades. You know this .

Actually I would argue that too. Today? Women are about the most protected and supported demographics in western society. And this is provable with facts. I know both words tend to get some twitchy.

Permabear wrote: »

So you're extrapolating from that extremely small sample size to propose that all Irish women have been sexually assaulted?

Again, all women have suffered sexual assault? Complete nonsense.

That is most certainly the position being promoted and has been for a while. This Harvey Wankerstein case has really put the shoulder to the wheel on it.

There were certainly periods when Ireland did not cover itself in glory with its treatment of women, but things have changed dramatically in recent decades, which you don't seem prepared to acknowledge.

Well, of course. That would go against the catechism of woman is always the victim, it's always men's fault. Even when as I said it's provable that women are about the most protected and supported demographic in western society

mzungu wrote: »

This one crops up time and time again. You could feed half the world with the amount of dining out that has been done on that case. The country was up in arms. The reason this pops up time and time again was because it was so bloody insane.

Exactly.

Burden of proof is high. Why? Because it is treated as a serious crime. That's why rates are so low.

If you have any suggestions for increasing the conviction rate then I'm all ears.

I would imagine the first thing to go would be the burden of proof. Always believe Women™. As if women are a hive mind, a consistent "thing" and somehow magically different because of their gender and not actual living breathing individuals with personal strengths and foibles. Y'know, people. Irony again.

Permabear

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lukesmom wrote: »

Is staring at a womans breasts sexual assault though? No it's not. It's recognising that someone's breasts look good. Am I the only one who sees nothing wrong with that?

When I see posts like this, I only wish that every man could become a woman for at least one month during their most attractive years! You need to experience what it is like from the woman's view to have a man ogle her breasts. Believe it or not, it is not always pleasurable. Picture a drooling Harvey Weinstein sitting across from her! :mad:

lukesmom wrote: »

Is staring at a womans breasts sexual assault though? No it's not. It's recognising that someone's breasts look good. Am I the only one who sees nothing wrong with that?

retro:electro

brooke 2 wrote: »

When I see posts like this, I only wish that every man could become a woman for at least one month during their most attractive years! You need to experience what it is like from the woman's view to have a man ogle her breasts. Believe it or not, it is not always pleasurable. Picture a drooling Harvey Weinstein sitting across from her! Ugh!! :mad:

That poster is a woman

Icemancometh

brooke 2 wrote: »

When I see posts like this, I only wish that every man could become a woman for at least one month during their most attractive years! You need to experience what it is like from the woman's view to have a man ogle her breasts. Believe it or not, it is not always pleasurable. Picture a drooling Harvey Weinstein sitting across from her! Ugh!! :mad:

If only it could be a drooling Brad Pitt! That'd be grand, right!!

[Deleted User]

up for anything wrote: »

1950s called and want you back. 'Dress sexy'. Seriously, get out of here! :eek::rolleyes:

Wear a coat! FFS!

It's October, windy and rainy. A coat seemed reasonable.

As for dress sexy, what's a better way of describing wearing clothes designed to make you more physically attractive?

anewme wrote: »

Stop that made me laugh!

Maybe we should all wear a Burqua?

kylith wrote: »

If you're going to rudely stare then people are going to think you're an ass. Would you like all women to wear sacks so that their physiology doesn't distract you?

It's funny. You really don't think your clothing affects the manner in which men will behave around you?

Women's breasts are not made of some magnetic substance that draws eyeballs or some kind of magic that makes you unable to look away. Stop blaming women for your rudeness.

My rudeness? there's a leap.

It's not about blame. It's about accepting some degree of responsibility for your own appearance. Instead, you think a woman can wear whatever she wishes, and if it attracts the wrong sort of attention, it's never her responsibility. Always playing the victim.

Men are responsible for their own behavior. They shouldn't be staring at any part of a woman. It's rude. At the same time though, if a woman dresses in a provocative manner, she will receive attention and she is partially responsible for that attention. Dress more carefully if you don't want that kind of attention.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

In relation to the post above, should women wear a coat to avoid their breasts appearing as showpieces?

kylith wrote: »

There's noticing that someone has breasts and there's staring at them like she's a piece of meat there solely for your enjoyment.

+100.

Some guys can only see the situation from one side. As I said already, they would need to spend at least a month as a woman!!

anewme wrote: »

It will be clear what womens' opinions will be on this

but can I ask what other men feel about this opinion.?

If a friend or colleague expressed these views, what would you say?

I think it's very relevant to the whole argument.

Great question A. Personally speaking? Nobody and I mean Nobody, man or woman should be harassed and most certainly not assaulted because of how they dress. However, if anyone, man or woman is given more attention because of how they dress(or act), that kinda goes with the territory. If I walked into a bar in Barcelona tonight wearing a Spanish flag Tee shirt that had the words Madrid forever, if anyone attacked me they would be dickheads, but I would have been unwise.

Many moons ago I knew a few gym types. Mad into their lifting weights and such. One guy was a monster and a roided one at that. Looked like Arnie on a good day. He was wearing a spray on white tee, where you could damn near see the bulging veins on his many muscles. He got off on that as did the women(and a couple of men) who dug that sorta thing in the group. And fair enough. Later on in the evening he complained about some woman at the bar who admired and got a bit handsie over his pecs. Was she a tool? Yes. Was he a bit thick to not see why he might have attracted such a tool? Equally yes.

On the other hand I do think that where does one draw the line. I mean pensioners have been raped often enough. But I would generally think rapists are another group of mental cases. Those who react to attention grabbing dress are a different breed as a general rule.

meeeeh

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Would it?

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/garda-crime-statistics-yet-another-test-of-credibility-1.2983903%3fmode=amp

I had quite a bit of hassle by random men and a lot worse type than night club groping that men like to mention whenever violence against women is mentioned. I didn't participate in the #metoo but I think it's about time this stuff is pointed out and stops being tolerate.

Women who dare to mention that they were mistreated are labelled attention seekers, hysterical or something similar. At the same time we have to listen to pathetic wailing from some how this is attack on men.

Icemancometh wrote: »

If only it could be a drooling Brad Pitt! That'd be grand, right!!

Now we are getting to the crux of it.

This attitude to me is what is dangerous and excuses and supports harassment of women.

I would hope the majority of Good guys, to be fair which we have seen on this thread, would not support this crap.

[Deleted User]

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Ah in fairness I think what klaz was trying to say was...

Spot on

Icemancometh

anewme wrote: »

Now we are getting to the crux of it.

This attitude to me is what is dangerous and excuses and supports harassment of women.

I would hope the majority of God guys, to be fair which we have seen on this thread, would not support this crap.

Support what? I responded to someone else raising the attractiveness of the harasser. I would have thought my excessive use of ! would have pointed to my insincerity.

Icemancometh wrote: »

If only it could be a drooling Brad Pitt! That'd be grand, right!!

That's a common notion, but mostly a fallacious one IMHO. And it is hard for most men to see that difference. I mean if you're grabbed by the man jewels by some granny on a hen do that's gross, but if she was a babe, it would be more likely "well helllllooo". I would agree that women in general do feel more socially vulnerable. Physically too. I mean, let's face it, as a man neither the "granny" nor the "babe" can exactly pull you into a dark corner and feel you up without your say so. There is a marked difference there.

Icemancometh wrote: »

Support what? I responded to someone else raising the attractiveness of the harasser.

But the attractiveness of the harasser is irrelevant.

Harassment is harassment.

Icemancometh

anewme wrote: »

But the attractiveness of the harasser is irrelevant.

Harassment is harassment.

I agree. Someone else brought it up, why don't you bring it up with them.

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. But then there's also clothing/bra's which seek to draw the attention of others to that area.

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them. If she doesn't want that attention, wear a coat, or some other article of clothing that covers her breasts. Or wear a bra that doesn't emphasize their size/shape through her clothes. It's like the women who wear a top, and the bra can be seen very easily through that top, and then complains that men are staring.

Women do have a responsibility for their own appearance. If you're going to dress sexy, you're going to get attention. Postive and negative attention.

FFS! How about men just having the cop on to exert enough self control not to ogle women. Perhaps the burka is needed to remove temptation from poor helpless men!!

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL-1kHxsavI

He does make a point. To a point. That said TBH I have a lot of affection for Dave, so am likely biased.

up for anything wrote: »

1950s called and want you back. 'Dress sexy'. Seriously, get out of here! :eek::rolleyes:

Wear a coat! FFS!

Or the burka!! :mad:

Sonics2k

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. But then there's also clothing/bra's which seek to draw the attention of others to that area.

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them. If she doesn't want that attention, wear a coat, or some other article of clothing that covers her breasts. Or wear a bra that doesn't emphasize their size/shape through her clothes. It's like the women who wear a top, and the bra can be seen very easily through that top, and then complains that men are staring.

Women do have a responsibility for their own appearance. If you're going to dress sexy, you're going to get attention. Postive and negative attention.

And you've got the responsibility and basic common sense to not blatantly oggle strangers.

kylith wrote: »

If you're going to rudely stare then people are going to think you're an ass. Would you like all women to wear sacks so that their physiology doesn't distract you?

Women's breasts are not made of some magnetic substance that draws eyeballs or some kind of magic that makes you unable to look away. Stop blaming women for your rudeness.

Very well said!

Sweetemotion

brooke 2 wrote: »

FFS! How about men just having the cop on to exert enough self control not to ogle women. Perhaps the burka is needed to remove temptation from poor helpless men!!

Have you never looked at an attractive man in the street?

Permabear

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