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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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deezell

mickdw wrote: »

I saw that but doesn't seem to be there at that price when you actually try to buy!

Did you go in-store? It's a clearance item, might be store only

mickdw

I saw that but doesn't seem to be there at that price when you actually try to buy!

deezell

mickdw wrote: »

I saw the salus iT500 kit
Anyone know if it's any good?

It's a complete kit 3 box like the Drayton. Wireless stat, wired single zone boiler switch and router hub device for internet control. It's going for almost nothing in Maplin for €52. At that price what's not to like.

mickdw

I saw the salus iT500 kit
Anyone know if it's any good?

niallb

mickdw wrote: »

...
Simplicity is important as older people will need to be able to hit a button on the wall to turn on the heat...
Any ideas of a good, possibly low cost unit to do this.

I installed this z-wave system in my own house for simplicity at €120.
I can remotely change the thermostat setting and turn it on and off, but that required extra equipment and a bit of reading. The wall mount dial works smoothly on its own, and the temperature and state are reflected in the openhab control panel on my raspberry pi.

I got a similar system with a 7 day timer/thermostat for my dad (aged 86 if it's relevant), and he loves it.

The timer/thermostat is battery powered, so he can take it to whichever room they are in at the time or leave it on the wall. He can manually boost or drop the temperature and the new setting lasts until the next programmed change.
It is also controllable by a z-wave compatible hub which would give you mobile phone controls, but the timer/thermostat has been enough for them to date.

deezell

mickdw wrote: »

Looking to do a very basic boiler control update.
Currently the system has an oil burner controlled via timer on its front panel.
Due to location of boiler we now want to fit wall control panel instead of going to the front of the boiler each time.
Ideally the new controller should have manual control at the controller with basic on / off /timer and also would like control via wifi on phone.
I'm not interested in subscription based systems and don't need anything more complex.
Simplicity is important as older people will need to be able to hit a button on the wall to turn on the heat.
Any ideas of a good, possibly low cost unit to do this.

Just to be clear, a basic on/ off timer controller can be installed, but this will neither give control via phone or temperature control. At the most basic level, you either adjust your heat by a timer or by a thermostat. Timers can bought for about €40 upwards.The EPH R17 digital single zone would be ideal for timing and one button on/ off control.
https://www.eurosales.ie/products/R17.html
Simple Thermostats start at about €10+. You can and should combine both. This installation can easily be learned and operated by older people.

If you want phone control this is usually part of a smart thermostat and/ or controller. This thermostat can take the place of the timer as it can be programmed for time as well as temperature. For simple use it will act as an on off controller simply by turning the temperature up or down on the actual device. You have not mentioned how hot water is heated. If this is required to be controlled seperately from the heating ( as distinct from a consequence of having the boiler on for heating), you will need a controller with two zones.

One of the simplest and cost effective systems I've seen is the Drayton MiGenie Wish, 1 or 2 zone. It can be installed as a straight controller and thermostat pair, with the stat connecting wirelessly to the controller. It can be operated like any controlled timer/ stat system, but it also has an internet hub to allow control by phone. It differs a bit from some of the smart systems in that from a users point of view it's a straightforward non internet dependent system in the first instance, so users just need to learn how to turn on and off via the stat. The controller is the only wired in part, and can be used to set timers etc. The stat is wireless to the controller and the hub for the internet connection is more of an add on than than an essential part of the system. This kit is currently availlable from BandQ UK for only £120 single zone, £125 for 2 Zone. You could enquire at BandQ Ireland for local euro prices, but I'm guessing they would be a large markup on the UK RRP of £149. I think this system is the simplest and easiest to install given your requirements, as well as being inexpensive. It's not really possible to have a basic mechanical on/ off type controller if you also wish to have compatible internet control, and mixing basic controllers with smart stats can lead to operational confusion, with one overriding the other. Check out the install video. https://youtu.be/C_YF0eCUqN8

mickdw

Looking to do a very basic boiler control update.
Currently the system has an oil burner controlled via timer on its front panel.
Due to location of boiler we now want to fit wall control panel instead of going to the front of the boiler each time.
Ideally the new controller should have manual control at the controller with basic on / off /timer and also would like control via wifi on phone.
I'm not interested in subscription based systems and don't need anything more complex.
Simplicity is important as older people will need to be able to hit a button on the wall to turn on the heat.
Any ideas of a good, possibly low cost unit to do this.

THE ALM

This might be a useful article to those looking at home heating automation.

dec2000

deezell wrote: »

Tap settings, then zone name heating to get next pic, then device to get 3rd.

Thanks for that deezell. I was in there earlier but I don't have the identify button and firmware is 16.11!!!

No errors on the stat so will drop tado a ticket for them to send the update.

deezell

Tap settings, then zone name heating to get next pic, then device to get 3rd.

dec2000

deezell wrote: »

This is the menu you should get when you press the three bar icon. Tap settings and then the zone name you have given the first stat, default is heating.

I followed the instructions they sent - got the tick after pairing to the bridge. Whatever I did this morning, it's now lost that link as it shows on the stat a broken connection. Repairing didn't work, I'm assuming because the bridge link light was not flashing. Just plugged out the bridge so I can get the link light to flash.

Be interested to see that pic. I guess I didn't see it as it never properly showed in the app.

deezell

This is the menu you should get when you press the three bar icon. Tap settings and then the zone name you have given the first stat, default is heating.
6034073

deezell

dec2000 wrote: »

Is that the Android or apple app? Can't see that in the Android one. I think it's not connected or lost connection to the bridge. It's def an old firmware as it has the aerial trying to link to the bridge. When the little one stops hanging off me I should be able to reset &#55357;&#56832;

Android. The stats will operate via the app only when the app says installation complete. If you haven't received the instructions yet you need to request support to register your stat as a simple on off connection to the boiler. They should then push the generic settings to the stat and update the firmware. Prior to that the stat should be paired to the bridge according to the generic instructions I posted. The ones you would receive from tado will be the same. All three lights on the bridge should be steady. You'll need to finish the installation with the first stat. Then add the second.Good luck!

dec2000

deezell wrote: »

On the app try settings/heating/ devices and tap the thermostat you are using. See if if has the current firmware on if. Mine is at 47.3 . You might need to contact tado and have this pushed to the device if it's not current. There's also an IDENTIFY DEVICE button there which is handy, it confirms communication with the stat, puts the message "HI" on the display.

Is that the Android or apple app? Can't see that in the Android one. I think it's not connected or lost connection to the bridge. It's def an old firmware as it has the aerial trying to link to the bridge. When the little one stops hanging off me I should be able to reset ðŸ˜€

deezell

On the app try settings/heating/ devices and tap the thermostat you are using. See if if has the current firmware on if. Mine is at 47.3 . You might need to contact tado and have this pushed to the device if it's not current. There's also an IDENTIFY DEVICE button there which is handy, it confirms communication with the stat, puts the message "HI" on the display.

dec2000

Didn't get as much time as I wanted to today but did just get one of the Tado stats installed, all very easy.
Need to play with it properly tomorrow but managed to change home address and set up the location, good to know that there are different options on the web app than mobile.

Issue I have now is the current temperature and humidity is not displayed in the app or the web browser but I do have a connection to it as it shows the target temp. Seemed ok on the unit showing room temp. Not much online so can only some it's something silly.

deezell

dec2000 wrote: »

Yup registered the hub and the devices and it's now awaiting install instructions before it will let me proceed. I'll drop them a note tomorrow if it's still not unlocked as I plan to install at the weekend. No problems registering the devices so appears everything is good with the 2nd hand Maplin stock - thanks again deezell for spotting the bargain

You're welcome. Exactly what I had to do. I had them on the wall and they were working away via the buttons, but I had to message them to say the install was complete and to please update the status to this. Once they did that the app install completed and I had full control.
BTW, as I've only one zone, I enquired about running the TRVs using the stat as the device which switches on the boiler. There was uncertainty in other blogs if they need the extension kit to communicate. Tado confirmed that a TRV will indeed fire the boiler via a chosen stat's wired connection. While they were at it they gave me a discount code for 10%, so I got two TRVs for £53.10 each on the UK site, about €59. Nice one.

dec2000

deezell wrote: »

dec2000 wrote: »

Oh also to add, I got confirmation from Tado that there is no problem buying used, the worse case is they may already be registered to another account, in which case, send a pic of the back of the stat with the receipt and they will resolve it.

Sounds great. You will just need one hub, pair a stat with it and the app will progress to install complete. You then just add the second stat using "add device" on the app. Could be a good few minutes updating on the stats,

Yup registered the hub and the devices and it's now awaiting install instructions before it will let me proceed. I'll drop them a note tomorrow if it's still not unlocked as I plan to install at the weekend. No problems registering the devices so appears everything is good with the 2nd hand Maplin stock - thanks again deezell for spotting the bargain

deezell

ctlsleh wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed response, very interesting.......would you mind re-posting the pics, they aren’t appearing in your post, also I’m interested in the nest one specifically as I wasn’t aware it could be set up that way

Pictures inserted

ctlsleh

deezell wrote: »

The efficiency of any condensor boiler is related to the the return temperature of the hot water from the radiators/hot water cylinder. From a cold start, the cold water in the radiators will be displaced by the incoming hot, and this cold water will cool the exhaust gasses of the boiler, collecting heat. When the radiators are fully hot, the return water will heat up to the difference between the arriving hot water and the heat loss to the room from the rad. If the return water is very hot the efficiency of the boiler will reduce. As long as the room themostat is open, the water will keep pumping. In an ideal scenario, the rate of pumping of the water is just sufficient to resupply the rad with hot while at the same time allowing the maximum heat to escape from the water before it returns. If only a small number of radiators are openall the flow will go to the remaining rads, increasing the likelyhood of high return temperature, There are a number of methods to improve efficiency.
1. Larger radiators will allow the desired room temperature to be reached quicker and reduce the return temperature of the water.
2. Intelligent circulation pumps can be set to a fixed pressure, and can also auto adjust as the load increases or decreases. Pumps like this one.

3. Many condensor boilers have smart features, pumps etc built in, they can measure the return temperature, or can modulate the heat output to better match demand and optimise return temperature.
4. A smart thermostat which has the ability to connect to such boilers, and can read the water temperature from the boiler and can Manage the firing rate. These are connected to the boiler by the digital or OT (OpenTherm) connections on the boiler and on the stat or its extension box. See connections for NEST. Image on the left is a standard boiler connected by the SL or switched live connectors of the nest box, on the right it's connected to the OT terminals. A similar set are available in the Tado stat, and extension box.

Thanks for the detailed response, very interesting.......would you mind re-posting the pics, they aren’t appearing in your post, also I’m interested in the nest one specifically as I wasn’t aware it could be set up that way

deezell

dec2000 wrote: »

Oh also to add, I got confirmation from Tado that there is no problem buying used, the worse case is they may already be registered to another account, in which case, send a pic of the back of the stat with the receipt and they will resolve it.

Sounds great. You will just need one hub, pair a stat with it and the app will progress to install complete. You then just add the second stat using "add device" on the app. Could be a good few minutes updating on the stats,

dec2000

dec2000 wrote: »

dec2000 wrote: »

Colm R wrote: »

Interested to hear how you get on - waiting until pay day to order!!

Will let you know. Had an issue straight after I ordered as I paid with Paypal and my address on Paypal is not ParcelMotel. Got a note saying they'd have to ship to my Paypal address, so happily let them and no request for P&P costs. Apparently dispatched yesterday and due in 3 days.
Thanks to Deezell I got the process started with Tado on the install instructions. The CTC thermostat wasn't on their list so it's gone for a review - not too worried about that part and looks like it should just be a straight replace anyway.

So just to check-in - I got the thermostats delivered yesterday. The boxes are a little faded and previously opened but other than that, everything else is as good as new. I think they must have been static demos or something as there is no marks on either and the batteries and pull tab to activate the batteries are still in place. The hubs in both seem to have never been used with everything still in it's wrapping.
The only thing I noticed is that the connector blocks for the A - + on one thermostat is missing, but not something I need.
Will start the set-up some evening and report back but very pleased with the condition of the "Used" stats from Maplins.

Oh also to add, I got confirmation from Tado that there is no problem buying used, the worse case is they may already be registered to another account, in which case, send a pic of the back of the stat with the receipt and they will resolve it.

dec2000

dec2000 wrote: »

Colm R wrote: »

Interested to hear how you get on - waiting until pay day to order!!

Will let you know. Had an issue straight after I ordered as I paid with Paypal and my address on Paypal is not ParcelMotel. Got a note saying they'd have to ship to my Paypal address, so happily let them and no request for P&P costs. Apparently dispatched yesterday and due in 3 days.
Thanks to Deezell I got the process started with Tado on the install instructions. The CTC thermostat wasn't on their list so it's gone for a review - not too worried about that part and looks like it should just be a straight replace anyway.

So just to check-in - I got the thermostats delivered yesterday. The boxes are a little faded and previously opened but other than that, everything else is as good as new. I think they must have been static demos or something as there is no marks on either and the batteries and pull tab to activate the batteries are still in place. The hubs in both seem to have never been used with everything still in it's wrapping.
The only thing I noticed is that the connector blocks for the A - + on one thermostat is missing, but not something I need.
Will start the set-up some evening and report back but very pleased with the condition of the "Used" stats from Maplins.

deezell

ctlsleh wrote: »

what happens to the efficiency of your condenser boiler when you start to shut down rads or even use one zone instead of the 2 or 3 that its been designed to heat on the first place?

The efficiency of any condensor boiler is related to the the return temperature of the hot water from the radiators/hot water cylinder. From a cold start, the cold water in the radiators will be displaced by the incoming hot, and this cold water will cool the exhaust gasses of the boiler, collecting heat. When the radiators are fully hot, the return water will heat up to the difference between the arriving hot water and the heat loss to the room from the rad. If the return water is very hot the efficiency of the boiler will reduce. As long as the room themostat is open, the water will keep pumping. In an ideal scenario, the rate of pumping of the water is just sufficient to resupply the rad with hot while at the same time allowing the maximum heat to escape from the water before it returns. If only a small number of radiators are openall the flow will go to the remaining rads, increasing the likelyhood of high return temperature, There are a number of methods to improve efficiency.
1. Larger radiators will allow the desired room temperature to be reached quicker and reduce the return temperature of the water.
2. Intelligent circulation pumps can be set to a fixed pressure, and can also auto adjust as the load increases or decreases. Pumps like this one.

3. Many condensor boilers have smart features, pumps etc built in, they can measure the return temperature, or can modulate the heat output to better match demand and optimise return temperature.
4. A smart thermostat which has the ability to connect to such boilers, and can read the water temperature from the boiler and can Manage the firing rate. These are connected to the boiler by the digital or OT (OpenTherm) connections on the boiler and on the stat or its extension box. See connections for NEST. First image is a standard boiler connected by the SL or switched live connectors of the nest box, next Image it's connected to the OT terminals. A similar set are available in the Tado stat, and extension box.

BoardsMember wrote: »

Thanks a mill bk for the detailed response.

Can I ask one other question...you say the Tado extension is only needed if you have hot water zone. Not sure I understand why this would be the case. Surely "something" is needed at the boiler to tell the boiler when something, rad or water, wants it to fire.

Basically the main Tado Thermostat unit can directly control the boiler, depending on your setup.

Tado, like most of the new Smart Thermostats is a controller/timer/stat all built into one box.

Depending on your setup, you could either just set your current timer to run 24/7 and replace your existing hall stat with the main Tado unit, so it basically takes over the control. Or alternatively you could replace your timer with the main Tado unit next to the boiler.

The latter option might not be great depending on the location of your boiler (e.g. outside), though that wouldn't matter if you used Tado TVR's on every rad, as they then fundamentally take over the temperature reading part and the main unit is only used for control.

Basically the Tado extension is only needed for two optional reasons:
- To control a separate hot water zone
- To allow you to place the main Tado Thermostat in any room you like, rather then in the hall.

In fact the whole hot water thing is mainly just a UK/Irish thing. Most European countries don't have this setup and thus most wouldn't buy the extension. The main unit is a drop in replacement for Thermostats on continental Europe. Frankly our setup is idiotic IMHO, combi boilers are way better.

BTW this is just how Tado is set up. Netatmo, Nest, etc. are slightly different.

deezell

BoardsMember wrote: »

Thanks a mill bk for the detailed response.

Can I ask one other question...you say the Tado extension is only needed if you have hot water zone. Not sure I understand why this would be the case. Surely "something" is needed at the boiler to tell the boiler when something, rad or water, wants it to fire.

The Tado stat has a pair of contacts to wire directly the boiler/pump and fire it. If using the tado extension, this box has the same pair of contacts to fire the boiler, plus another pair to turn on a pump or valve to heat the hot water cylinder. The Tado stat then communicates wirelessly with the extension box, so it can be located anywhere. TRVs communicate with the tado stat to fire the boiler If there is no extension box.

ctlsleh

what happens to the efficiency of your condenser boiler when you start to shut down rads or even use one zone instead of the 2 or 3 that its been designed to heat on the first place?

BoardsMember

bk wrote: »

BoardsMember The Tado extension would replace the timer and allow you to call for heat or hot water separately.

The Tado "stat" would replace your existing stat or if you prefer you can have it wireless.

So lets say you have Tado TRV's in each room and you have the temp on all of them set to 20c and it is currently 21c in all rooms. Then the TRV's will be closed in all rooms, but the TRV's will also tell the Tado stat and it will instruct the boiler to switch off via the Tado extension.

Now lets say the temp in one room drops to 19c, the following will happen:
- The Tado TRV in that room will open
- The Tado TRV in that room will tell the Tado Stat that it needs heat.
- The Tado stat will instruct the boiler to switch on generate heat via the Tado Extension.

Basically it looks like:

Boiler -> Tado Extension (usually next to the boiler, but only needed if you have hot water zone) -> Tado Thermostat (Usually in the hall or living room) -> Multiple optional TRV's in each room.

Thanks a mill bk for the detailed response.

Can I ask one other question...you say the Tado extension is only needed if you have hot water zone. Not sure I understand why this would be the case. Surely "something" is needed at the boiler to tell the boiler when something, rad or water, wants it to fire.

BoardsMember The Tado extension would replace the timer and allow you to call for heat or hot water separately.

The Tado "stat" would replace your existing stat or if you prefer you can have it wireless.

So lets say you have Tado TRV's in each room and you have the temp on all of them set to 20c and it is currently 21c in all rooms. Then the TRV's will be closed in all rooms, but the TRV's will also tell the Tado stat and it will instruct the boiler to switch off via the Tado extension.

Now lets say the temp in one room drops to 19c, the following will happen:
- The Tado TRV in that room will open
- The Tado TRV in that room will tell the Tado Stat that it needs heat.
- The Tado stat will instruct the boiler to switch on generate heat via the Tado Extension.

Basically it looks like:

Boiler -> Tado Extension (usually next to the boiler, but only needed if you have hot water zone) -> Tado Thermostat (Usually in the hall or living room) -> Multiple optional TRV's in each room.

BoardsMember

deezell wrote: »

I'd expect any smart TRVs to report the temperature back to their own app. Whether they integrate fully with Amazon Alexa/ Google Home-assistant depends on the brand and level of intergration. With the Tado TRvs, on another blog it states that you can control the temperature but not read back the current temperature with Alexa, but no reports what you can read with Google Home/Assistant or Apple Home Kit. You'll have to search a bit further for detail. Of more importance is the integration to your current system. Smart TRVs can all be programmed to open and close according to a timer/temperature program, usually on an app, but this is only of use if the boiler is also running at the same time. Tado can operate the boiler if you have the Tado main stat or the Tado Extension box wired in to switch the boiler. You'll need to ensure that any brand you buy can talk to the controller that fires the boiler. If you have a Nest for example, it won't in itself have any awareness of other brand TRVs. It could however be controlled by a third party app or controller software which can see both the Nest and the TRVs. Apple homekit and Google Home can both be used to turn 0n the boiler via , say, a Nest controller, and then turn on the brand of TRVs you have installed if they are compatible. How tidy the interface will be I'm not sure. If your'e into IFTTT software i'ts possible. I can fully time and temperature control my two Tado TRVs, and when they open for heat they seamlessly call the boiler which is physically switched on by the Main Tado room Thermostat. I'm sure the Zwave have some kind of interface that can do this also.

Quick question - does this mean that the Tado main stat or the Tado Extension box replaces the timer you have on your current heating controls?

I have a timer that can be on/off twice a day for heating and hot water. Rads is all on one circuit, water on another. Gas boiler.

Wondering how I would use a Tado in that situation. Would like to be able to control rads individually, not turn on some in the morning/evening at all, have others on but stat controlled at other times. I know I need the boiler running in order to pull heat, and from your comment above it looks like Tado main stat or the Tado Extension box can call the boiler, just wondering how that works with what I have.

Thanks!