Home heating automation

ctlsleh wrote: »

what happens to the efficiency of your condenser boiler when you start to shut down rads or even use one zone instead of the 2 or 3 that its been designed to heat on the first place?

The efficiency of any condensor boiler is related to the the return temperature of the hot water from the radiators/hot water cylinder. From a cold start, the cold water in the radiators will be displaced by the incoming hot, and this cold water will cool the exhaust gasses of the boiler, collecting heat. When the radiators are fully hot, the return water will heat up to the difference between the arriving hot water and the heat loss to the room from the rad. If the return water is very hot the efficiency of the boiler will reduce. As long as the room themostat is open, the water will keep pumping. In an ideal scenario, the rate of pumping of the water is just sufficient to resupply the rad with hot while at the same time allowing the maximum heat to escape from the water before it returns. If only a small number of radiators are openall the flow will go to the remaining rads, increasing the likelyhood of high return temperature, There are a number of methods to improve efficiency.
1. Larger radiators will allow the desired room temperature to be reached quicker and reduce the return temperature of the water.
2. Intelligent circulation pumps can be set to a fixed pressure, and can also auto adjust as the load increases or decreases. Pumps like this one.

3. Many condensor boilers have smart features, pumps etc built in, they can measure the return temperature, or can modulate the heat output to better match demand and optimise return temperature.
4. A smart thermostat which has the ability to connect to such boilers, and can read the water temperature from the boiler and can Manage the firing rate. These are connected to the boiler by the digital or OT (OpenTherm) connections on the boiler and on the stat or its extension box. See connections for NEST. First image is a standard boiler connected by the SL or switched live connectors of the nest box, next Image it's connected to the OT terminals. A similar set are available in the Tado stat, and extension box.

dec2000 wrote: »

Colm R wrote: »

Interested to hear how you get on - waiting until pay day to order!!

Will let you know. Had an issue straight after I ordered as I paid with Paypal and my address on Paypal is not ParcelMotel. Got a note saying they'd have to ship to my Paypal address, so happily let them and no request for P&P costs. Apparently dispatched yesterday and due in 3 days.
Thanks to Deezell I got the process started with Tado on the install instructions. The CTC thermostat wasn't on their list so it's gone for a review - not too worried about that part and looks like it should just be a straight replace anyway.

So just to check-in - I got the thermostats delivered yesterday. The boxes are a little faded and previously opened but other than that, everything else is as good as new. I think they must have been static demos or something as there is no marks on either and the batteries and pull tab to activate the batteries are still in place. The hubs in both seem to have never been used with everything still in it's wrapping.
The only thing I noticed is that the connector blocks for the A - + on one thermostat is missing, but not something I need.
Will start the set-up some evening and report back but very pleased with the condition of the "Used" stats from Maplins.

dec2000 wrote: »

dec2000 wrote: »

Colm R wrote: »

Interested to hear how you get on - waiting until pay day to order!!

Will let you know. Had an issue straight after I ordered as I paid with Paypal and my address on Paypal is not ParcelMotel. Got a note saying they'd have to ship to my Paypal address, so happily let them and no request for P&P costs. Apparently dispatched yesterday and due in 3 days.
Thanks to Deezell I got the process started with Tado on the install instructions. The CTC thermostat wasn't on their list so it's gone for a review - not too worried about that part and looks like it should just be a straight replace anyway.

So just to check-in - I got the thermostats delivered yesterday. The boxes are a little faded and previously opened but other than that, everything else is as good as new. I think they must have been static demos or something as there is no marks on either and the batteries and pull tab to activate the batteries are still in place. The hubs in both seem to have never been used with everything still in it's wrapping.
The only thing I noticed is that the connector blocks for the A - + on one thermostat is missing, but not something I need.
Will start the set-up some evening and report back but very pleased with the condition of the "Used" stats from Maplins.

Oh also to add, I got confirmation from Tado that there is no problem buying used, the worse case is they may already be registered to another account, in which case, send a pic of the back of the stat with the receipt and they will resolve it.

dec2000 wrote: »

Oh also to add, I got confirmation from Tado that there is no problem buying used, the worse case is they may already be registered to another account, in which case, send a pic of the back of the stat with the receipt and they will resolve it.

Sounds great. You will just need one hub, pair a stat with it and the app will progress to install complete. You then just add the second stat using "add device" on the app. Could be a good few minutes updating on the stats,

ctlsleh

deezell wrote: »

The efficiency of any condensor boiler is related to the the return temperature of the hot water from the radiators/hot water cylinder. From a cold start, the cold water in the radiators will be displaced by the incoming hot, and this cold water will cool the exhaust gasses of the boiler, collecting heat. When the radiators are fully hot, the return water will heat up to the difference between the arriving hot water and the heat loss to the room from the rad. If the return water is very hot the efficiency of the boiler will reduce. As long as the room themostat is open, the water will keep pumping. In an ideal scenario, the rate of pumping of the water is just sufficient to resupply the rad with hot while at the same time allowing the maximum heat to escape from the water before it returns. If only a small number of radiators are openall the flow will go to the remaining rads, increasing the likelyhood of high return temperature, There are a number of methods to improve efficiency.
1. Larger radiators will allow the desired room temperature to be reached quicker and reduce the return temperature of the water.
2. Intelligent circulation pumps can be set to a fixed pressure, and can also auto adjust as the load increases or decreases. Pumps like this one.

3. Many condensor boilers have smart features, pumps etc built in, they can measure the return temperature, or can modulate the heat output to better match demand and optimise return temperature.
4. A smart thermostat which has the ability to connect to such boilers, and can read the water temperature from the boiler and can Manage the firing rate. These are connected to the boiler by the digital or OT (OpenTherm) connections on the boiler and on the stat or its extension box. See connections for NEST. Image on the left is a standard boiler connected by the SL or switched live connectors of the nest box, on the right it's connected to the OT terminals. A similar set are available in the Tado stat, and extension box.

Thanks for the detailed response, very interesting.......would you mind re-posting the pics, they aren’t appearing in your post, also I’m interested in the nest one specifically as I wasn’t aware it could be set up that way

ctlsleh wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed response, very interesting.......would you mind re-posting the pics, they aren’t appearing in your post, also I’m interested in the nest one specifically as I wasn’t aware it could be set up that way

Pictures inserted

deezell wrote: »

dec2000 wrote: »

Oh also to add, I got confirmation from Tado that there is no problem buying used, the worse case is they may already be registered to another account, in which case, send a pic of the back of the stat with the receipt and they will resolve it.

Sounds great. You will just need one hub, pair a stat with it and the app will progress to install complete. You then just add the second stat using "add device" on the app. Could be a good few minutes updating on the stats,

Yup registered the hub and the devices and it's now awaiting install instructions before it will let me proceed. I'll drop them a note tomorrow if it's still not unlocked as I plan to install at the weekend. No problems registering the devices so appears everything is good with the 2nd hand Maplin stock - thanks again deezell for spotting the bargain

dec2000 wrote: »

Yup registered the hub and the devices and it's now awaiting install instructions before it will let me proceed. I'll drop them a note tomorrow if it's still not unlocked as I plan to install at the weekend. No problems registering the devices so appears everything is good with the 2nd hand Maplin stock - thanks again deezell for spotting the bargain

You're welcome. Exactly what I had to do. I had them on the wall and they were working away via the buttons, but I had to message them to say the install was complete and to please update the status to this. Once they did that the app install completed and I had full control.
BTW, as I've only one zone, I enquired about running the TRVs using the stat as the device which switches on the boiler. There was uncertainty in other blogs if they need the extension kit to communicate. Tado confirmed that a TRV will indeed fire the boiler via a chosen stat's wired connection. While they were at it they gave me a discount code for 10%, so I got two TRVs for £53.10 each on the UK site, about €59. Nice one.

Didn't get as much time as I wanted to today but did just get one of the Tado stats installed, all very easy.
Need to play with it properly tomorrow but managed to change home address and set up the location, good to know that there are different options on the web app than mobile.

Issue I have now is the current temperature and humidity is not displayed in the app or the web browser but I do have a connection to it as it shows the target temp. Seemed ok on the unit showing room temp. Not much online so can only some it's something silly.

On the app try settings/heating/ devices and tap the thermostat you are using. See if if has the current firmware on if. Mine is at 47.3 . You might need to contact tado and have this pushed to the device if it's not current. There's also an IDENTIFY DEVICE button there which is handy, it confirms communication with the stat, puts the message "HI" on the display.

deezell wrote: »

On the app try settings/heating/ devices and tap the thermostat you are using. See if if has the current firmware on if. Mine is at 47.3 . You might need to contact tado and have this pushed to the device if it's not current. There's also an IDENTIFY DEVICE button there which is handy, it confirms communication with the stat, puts the message "HI" on the display.

Is that the Android or apple app? Can't see that in the Android one. I think it's not connected or lost connection to the bridge. It's def an old firmware as it has the aerial trying to link to the bridge. When the little one stops hanging off me I should be able to reset ðŸ˜€

dec2000 wrote: »

Is that the Android or apple app? Can't see that in the Android one. I think it's not connected or lost connection to the bridge. It's def an old firmware as it has the aerial trying to link to the bridge. When the little one stops hanging off me I should be able to reset &#55357;&#56832;

Android. The stats will operate via the app only when the app says installation complete. If you haven't received the instructions yet you need to request support to register your stat as a simple on off connection to the boiler. They should then push the generic settings to the stat and update the firmware. Prior to that the stat should be paired to the bridge according to the generic instructions I posted. The ones you would receive from tado will be the same. All three lights on the bridge should be steady. You'll need to finish the installation with the first stat. Then add the second.Good luck!

This is the menu you should get when you press the three bar icon. Tap settings and then the zone name you have given the first stat, default is heating.
6034073

deezell wrote: »

This is the menu you should get when you press the three bar icon. Tap settings and then the zone name you have given the first stat, default is heating.

I followed the instructions they sent - got the tick after pairing to the bridge. Whatever I did this morning, it's now lost that link as it shows on the stat a broken connection. Repairing didn't work, I'm assuming because the bridge link light was not flashing. Just plugged out the bridge so I can get the link light to flash.

Be interested to see that pic. I guess I didn't see it as it never properly showed in the app.

Tap settings, then zone name heating to get next pic, then device to get 3rd.

deezell wrote: »

Tap settings, then zone name heating to get next pic, then device to get 3rd.

Thanks for that deezell. I was in there earlier but I don't have the identify button and firmware is 16.11!!!

No errors on the stat so will drop tado a ticket for them to send the update.

THE ALM

This might be a useful article to those looking at home heating automation.

Looking to do a very basic boiler control update.
Currently the system has an oil burner controlled via timer on its front panel.
Due to location of boiler we now want to fit wall control panel instead of going to the front of the boiler each time.
Ideally the new controller should have manual control at the controller with basic on / off /timer and also would like control via wifi on phone.
I'm not interested in subscription based systems and don't need anything more complex.
Simplicity is important as older people will need to be able to hit a button on the wall to turn on the heat.
Any ideas of a good, possibly low cost unit to do this.

mickdw wrote: »

Looking to do a very basic boiler control update.
Currently the system has an oil burner controlled via timer on its front panel.
Due to location of boiler we now want to fit wall control panel instead of going to the front of the boiler each time.
Ideally the new controller should have manual control at the controller with basic on / off /timer and also would like control via wifi on phone.
I'm not interested in subscription based systems and don't need anything more complex.
Simplicity is important as older people will need to be able to hit a button on the wall to turn on the heat.
Any ideas of a good, possibly low cost unit to do this.

Just to be clear, a basic on/ off timer controller can be installed, but this will neither give control via phone or temperature control. At the most basic level, you either adjust your heat by a timer or by a thermostat. Timers can bought for about €40 upwards.The EPH R17 digital single zone would be ideal for timing and one button on/ off control.
https://www.eurosales.ie/products/R17.html
Simple Thermostats start at about €10+. You can and should combine both. This installation can easily be learned and operated by older people.

If you want phone control this is usually part of a smart thermostat and/ or controller. This thermostat can take the place of the timer as it can be programmed for time as well as temperature. For simple use it will act as an on off controller simply by turning the temperature up or down on the actual device. You have not mentioned how hot water is heated. If this is required to be controlled seperately from the heating ( as distinct from a consequence of having the boiler on for heating), you will need a controller with two zones.

One of the simplest and cost effective systems I've seen is the Drayton MiGenie Wish, 1 or 2 zone. It can be installed as a straight controller and thermostat pair, with the stat connecting wirelessly to the controller. It can be operated like any controlled timer/ stat system, but it also has an internet hub to allow control by phone. It differs a bit from some of the smart systems in that from a users point of view it's a straightforward non internet dependent system in the first instance, so users just need to learn how to turn on and off via the stat. The controller is the only wired in part, and can be used to set timers etc. The stat is wireless to the controller and the hub for the internet connection is more of an add on than than an essential part of the system. This kit is currently availlable from BandQ UK for only £120 single zone, £125 for 2 Zone. You could enquire at BandQ Ireland for local euro prices, but I'm guessing they would be a large markup on the UK RRP of £149. I think this system is the simplest and easiest to install given your requirements, as well as being inexpensive. It's not really possible to have a basic mechanical on/ off type controller if you also wish to have compatible internet control, and mixing basic controllers with smart stats can lead to operational confusion, with one overriding the other. Check out the install video. https://youtu.be/C_YF0eCUqN8

niallb

mickdw wrote: »

...
Simplicity is important as older people will need to be able to hit a button on the wall to turn on the heat...
Any ideas of a good, possibly low cost unit to do this.

I installed this z-wave system in my own house for simplicity at €120.
I can remotely change the thermostat setting and turn it on and off, but that required extra equipment and a bit of reading. The wall mount dial works smoothly on its own, and the temperature and state are reflected in the openhab control panel on my raspberry pi.

I got a similar system with a 7 day timer/thermostat for my dad (aged 86 if it's relevant), and he loves it.

The timer/thermostat is battery powered, so he can take it to whichever room they are in at the time or leave it on the wall. He can manually boost or drop the temperature and the new setting lasts until the next programmed change.
It is also controllable by a z-wave compatible hub which would give you mobile phone controls, but the timer/thermostat has been enough for them to date.

I saw the salus iT500 kit
Anyone know if it's any good?

mickdw wrote: »

I saw the salus iT500 kit
Anyone know if it's any good?

It's a complete kit 3 box like the Drayton. Wireless stat, wired single zone boiler switch and router hub device for internet control. It's going for almost nothing in Maplin for €52. At that price what's not to like.

I saw that but doesn't seem to be there at that price when you actually try to buy!

mickdw wrote: »

I saw that but doesn't seem to be there at that price when you actually try to buy!

Did you go in-store? It's a clearance item, might be store only

Ah ok. makes sense. Unfortunately, Im about 100 miles from a maplin store so didnt get to call in.
Will work on it tomorrow.

Hmm, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. It's on the UK site for twice that, and that's for clearance used item. You could phone them.

dec2000 wrote: »

Thanks for that deezell. I was in there earlier but I don't have the identify button and firmware is 16.11!!!

No errors on the stat so will drop tado a ticket for them to send the update.

and just to wrap this one up - Tado support pushed the updates to the two stats - both have the latest version now and both doing what they are supposed to. Just have to set the schedules properly and test them out.

For anyone considering the used Maplin stock, to me it seems like they were just used as some sort of dumb displays in shops as they still had the original batter seals and the firmware was so outdated, I doubt they ever contacted home for updates. Thanks again to deezell for the bargain alert and help in setting them up!

flogen

I have a relatively new gas boiler (a Vokera Vibe, I think) that's controlled by a timer in the sitting room and I'd like to upgrade it so I can control it remotely.

Anyone have any experience with this type of boiler? Does it matter that I don't have a thermostat in the house at the moment? Any recommendations for the best brand to go with (would need to be HomeKit compatible, so I know that narrows the pot somewhat).

flogen wrote: »

I have a relatively new gas boiler (a Vokera Vibe, I think) that's controlled by a timer in the sitting room and I'd like to upgrade it so I can control it remotely.

Anyone have any experience with this type of boiler? Does it matter that I don't have a thermostat in the house at the moment? Any recommendations for the best brand to go with (would need to be HomeKit compatible, so I know that narrows the pot somewhat).

This is a basic two port boiler with pumped flow and return. There must be external components, maybe motorised valves, cylinder stats, in order to manage hot water only provison. Can you post a pic of the timer? Or even just the make and model no.