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#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

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One side of the argument is that it empowers the victim to come forward, the ground swell of public opinion seems to be behind them.

The other side is the undermining the accused right to a fair defense.

What says Boards ?, a good thing or a bad thing.

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Irish Guitarist

So if I don't automatically believe that every single woman is telling the truth on the internet and that absolutely no woman has ever lied or exaggerated for attention I'm male cis rape culture scum. I should just take everything a woman I don't know says at face value without any evidence. Got it.

Burial.

kylith wrote: »

Or maybe, maybe, knowing that lots of other people have had similar experiences can help someone who has been assaulted feel confident enough to report their assault.

Maybe, maybe, knowing that it can happen to Jennifer Lawrence and other famous women will help them feel less alone, and less like it is their fault.

By all means report it to the shades, better now than never if you couldn't do it when it happened...but broadcasting it over Facebook and Twitter is not reporting it.

Ah here. Jennifer Lawrence had a choice, but she chose not to walk away. Someone who has been raped or is a real victim of sexual abuse had/has no choice.

Gbear

anna080 wrote: »

:eyeroll:

Now if she said she smiled at him and he squeezed her boobs I'd see her point- but he asked her for her number; a perfectly acceptable and polite way of engaging with somebody.
What a croc of sh!t.

I won't say this is true of this particular situation because I wasn't there and neither was anyone likely commenting on it (maybe it came across as creepier than it sounds), but it does suggest a degree of elitism and lack of empathy on her part - "how dare this pleb speak to me", sort of thing.

It's a bit like how when people meet a celebrity and they're not all smiles and autographs and they go away thinking the celebrity is a mean-spirited ****e for the rest of their lives.

You're getting this tiny snapshot of a person who's got their own set of fears and all that going on. If you're particularly cynical and negative you're only ever going to take the interaction in the worst possible way.
I can imagine myself the humour in the idea of a lowly drone asking an impossibly beautiful oscar-winner for their number. He mighn't have done it seriously, or to put her down. He might've just thought it was harmlessly amusing.

You could go through life fearfully and take everything the worst way and assume they're out to get you or you could do the opposite.

Of course, some people have had experiences that make it understandable why they'd have that fear.

kylith

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

All of the above should be regarded as sexual assault and carry extremely serious penalties. My issue is that people blur the line between harassment and simply making an advance - harassment by definition is persistent. Asking somebody out or telling them that you find them attractive is just a standard way of opening the door to seeing if someone is interested in response - if we require people to know in advance whether they're going to be rejected or reciprocated, then by logical extension, no relationship between strangers can ever begin, ever. That in my view is ridiculous - sure, many people in relationships begin as friends or are introduced by a mutual friend, but just as many begin as random, chance encounters in which one of the people had the courage to make an approach to the other. If that is now regarded as a problem - see the TSA tweet above - then a whole pile of people I know in happy relationships wouldn't be allowed to have got together in the first place, since the initial encounter would have been classified as harassment. That, to me, is just moronic.

I take the point that if you find someone attractive then you need to let them know that. However, there is the matter of how it's done: 'Hi, would you be interested in going out with me sometime?' is fine, especially if a rejection is followed by 'No problem, have a nice evening. Goodbye'. Unfortunately that is often not the case.

A simple 'no, thank you' can be met with outright hostility, demands to know why, insistence that he's a 'nice guy' who 'deserves a chance', aggression, and insults.

Similarly 'Nice tits love, give me your phone number' is not really a gentlemanly way to go about this.

That TSA tweet... would you consider just after having been frisked after having waited in line for bloody ages as an acceptable time for a staff member in the establishment to hit on you? Especially if the person being hit on is a well known actress? Did he really think she would say yes? Especially since they had not had any interaction beforehand? Is it acceptable for someone who presumably has the power to mark you for a search to ask for your phone number? What was his motivation in asking her?

sunshine and showers

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

So if I don't automatically believe that every single woman is telling the truth on the internet and that absolutely no woman has ever lied or exaggerated for attention I'm male cis rape culture scum. I should just take everything a woman I don't know says at face value without any evidence. Got it.

Who exactly has said that to you? But yes, please do make it all about you. :rolleyes:

kylith

Burial. wrote: »

By all means report it to the shades, better now than never if you couldn't do it when it happened...but broadcasting it over Facebook and Twitter is not reporting it.

Ah here. Jennifer Lawrence had a choice, but she chose not to walk away. Someone who has been raped or is a real victim of sexual abuse had/has no choice.

Broadcasting it over facebook lets other women who have been assaulted know that they are not alone, that there are other people out there who know what they are going through and how they feel. And it lets everyone know that this is not a rare occurrence.

This happens to thousands of women every day. Should they stay quiet, like they're ashamed? Why is them saying that they've been assaulted such an issue for you?

BlaasForRafa

kylith wrote: »

Similarly 'Nice tits love, give me your phone number' is not really a gentlemanly way to go about this.

Not exactly gentlemanly but not crime of the century either. Some people need to get a sense of proportion in what they deem to be a big deal.

kylith wrote: »

That TSA tweet... would you consider just after having been frisked after having waited in line for bloody ages as an acceptable time for a staff member in the establishment to hit on you? Especially if the person being hit on is a well known actress? Did he really think she would say yes? Especially since they had not had any interaction beforehand? Is it acceptable for someone who presumably has the power to mark you for a search to ask for your phone number? What was his motivation in asking her?

He probably did it for the laugh and to say to his mates in the break room "Hey did you see who I asked for her number" but instead of taking it in the spirit it was probably intended she went and had a sh*t attack all over twitter and completely blew it out of proportion.

kylith wrote: »

Broadcasting it over facebook lets other women who have been assaulted know that they are not alone, that there are other people out there who know what they are going through and how they feel. And it lets everyone know that this is not a rare occurrence.

This happens to thousands of women every day. Should they stay quiet, like they're ashamed? Why is them saying that they've been assaulted such an issue for you?

Because it's trial by the mob and not trial by jury. If someone is accused of a serious crime then they deserve to be able to answer it in a court of law, not have their name dragged through the mud and destroyed.

Not every woman tells the truth about these things you know, just look at the cases of Craig Charles and Michael le Vell

Press_Start

I believe it's there to show the level of harrassment that women go through, rather than to actually parade it around.
Almost every woman I follow on twitter, and some men have come forward. We're so close to having gender equality, I think it's just spreading awareness about being harrassed and abused, rather than manshaming and snowflaking. I think it's a good thing. Terry Crews, the giant black lad who's always a musclebound beefcake in everything, has come forth about his own sexual harrassment and how it made him feel.

Men are doing it too, it's not just women. Men are sexually abused, while not as often or as violently as women, but women are harrassed every day. Put it this way, a comedian said this the other week:

Why don't some men go to a gay bar? They're afraid of being approached by a gay man and offered sexual congress. Imagine the thought of just going out with your friends for a nice time, having a few drinks, and some ****ing gay lad comes up and offers to ride you, or show you a nice time. You'd be ****in' outraged.
That's what it's like every night for a woman if she goes out. Men aren't even aware of the level, and again, the hashtag is there to show people, just how wide reaching sexual abuse and sexual harrassment it.

*EDIT*
I'm also well aware that some of the stories that come out under that hashtag are a load of bollocks, made up, or taken out f proportion or context. I had a woman on twitter say she was raped before, when the taxi man helped her in. She woke up with her top off and assumed the man had felt her up. Turned out the security cameras caught her whipping her own top off as she was led to the door and the poor taximan didnt know what to do so he ran off without charging her!

andekwarhola

If it helps somebody broach something that they've been afraid to express, then it's fine by me.

Obviously you can be cynical and say that a lot of people do it on social media for validation or attention but surely, if you're jaundiced and cynical to that extent, you could say that about every social media utterance ever made, including contributing to message boards and going to social media to criticise other people's social media habits.

the_syco

Aside from confirming that every single woman has gotten sexually abused, what does it actually do? I doubt the abusers will care, and this won't stop them. It will allow them no to feel alone, but in the end, I don't think it'll do much.

Press_Start

the_syco wrote: »

Aside from confirming that every single woman has gotten sexually abused, what does it actually do? I doubt the abusers will care, and this won't stop them. It will allow them no to feel alone, but in the end, I don't think it'll do much.

Allow them to stand in solidarity, maybe give more people knowledge about what harrssment is, and show what women go through. It's in reaction to the Weinstein thing I believe.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Being asked out is grand, but sometimes the context makes it inappropriate. Someone you've just met asks for your number in the queue for the bus: OK, as long as they're decent about it. Someone you've just met asks for your number, when you've just given them your paperwork to be tax assessed: not OK, even though they're just asking.

I find Larson's thing there a bit precious, but I can see what she's driving at, and it's something that seems to be a far, far, bigger problem in the states. The problem that if you adhere to a bare minimum standard of politeness, it'll be interpreted as sexual interest.

Any negative reaction is always hilariously overreacted to on these threads as well. "Crime of the century, is it", "oh I'm cis man scum" etc. People are talking about a vast range of their experiences, experiences which run from annoying, to infuriating, to worrying, to life threatening. Not claiming that winking is the same as buggery. Ye're seeing what ye want to see, anything that confirms the narrative that the feminists are out to get ye, and that's far, far more interesting than listening to what women (and men, scuse me, White Knights) actually say.

If there was a social media campaign that had people posting metoo if they owned a dog, by the logic of this debate the main upshot of this would be that it's an anti cat campaign and also that anyone who owns a terrier shouldn't join in because some people own Great Danes.

BBBDigital017

Load of nonsense, if they need to talk do so but soical medias not the place

TheShow

I was wearing a low cut top that barely covered my nipples and this guy looked at my chest #metoo

What a monster

kylith

BBBDigital017 wrote: »

Load of nonsense, if they need to talk do so but soical medias not the place

Where is the place then?

BlaasForRafa

TheShow wrote: »

I was wearing a low cut top that barely covered my nipples and this guy looked at my chest #metoo

What a monster

Just reminds me, one of the women I work with often wears low cut tops and has a habit of coming to my desk to show me something she's working on, all the while showing off her cleavage and inside I'm thinking "just put them away will you!"

kylith wrote: »

Where is the place then?

Police station.

TheShow

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

Being asked out is grand, but sometimes the context makes it inappropriate. Someone you've just met asks for your number in the queue for the bus: OK, as long as they're decent about it. Someone you've just met asks for your number, when you've just given them your paperwork to be tax assessed: not OK, even though they're just asking.

I fail to see why the second scenario is not ok. So you can ask a person out, as long as it’s on their terms?
I can understand that it would be inappropriate if there is a “relationship” where a duty of care is involved. But if you see somebody who you find attractive for whatever reason, surely you should be able to ask that person on a date without fear of repercussion, and that said person can accept or reject the offer at their own discretion.
Where is the harm in that?

bucketybuck

sunshine and showers wrote: »

But yes, please do make it all about you. :rolleyes:

Said without irony in a thread about "#metoo"...

Burial.

kylith wrote: »

Broadcasting it over facebook lets other women who have been assaulted know that they are not alone, that there are other people out there who know what they are going through and how they feel. And it lets everyone know that this is not a rare occurrence.

This happens to thousands of women every day. Should they stay quiet, like they're ashamed? Why is them saying that they've been assaulted such an issue for you?

Anyone with a brain cell realises crime happens everywhere, every day. If legitimate experiences were the only ones being shared I'd be all for it but unfortunately that is not the case. Mckayla Maroney's post was brilliant as everyone had suspicions that women's gymnastics was rampant with odd dealings and she's one of the most famous gymnasts ever and her advice was spot on. But experiences like that are a rarity given the absolute **** storm of drivel being posted since. It's turned into like whoring and trying to grab the attention from others. All it is doing in effect is diluting the real issue and the real cases. I find it hard to believe all these accounts given that stories of false rape claims are becoming more and more common as well. The fact is feminism is thriving hard to make men the complete enemy and that women can never be faulted and anything they say is gospel truth. And that's not fair. Like ya wan Louise McSharry wrote about the other day implying most men are responsible for sexual harassment in one way or another.

[Deleted User]

TheShow wrote: »

I fail to see why the second scenario is not ok. So you can ask a person out, as long as it’s on their terms?
I can understand that it would be inappropriate if there is a “relationship” where a duty of care is involved. But if you see somebody who you find attractive for whatever reason, surely you should be able to ask that person on a date without fear of repercussion, and that said person can accept or reject the offer at their own discretion.
Where is the harm in that?

Do you really not understand why it would be inappropriate for a tax assessor to ask the person they’re assessing out?

pjohnson

silent_spark wrote: »

Do you really not understand why it would be inappropriate for a tax assessor to ask the person they’re assessing out?

Is it because tax assessors are evil?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

TheShow wrote: »

I fail to see why the second scenario is not ok. So you can ask a person out, as long as it’s on their terms?
I can understand that it would be inappropriate if there is a “relationship” where a duty of care is involved. But if you see somebody who you find attractive for whatever reason, surely you should be able to ask that person on a date without fear of repercussion, and that said person can accept or reject the offer at their own discretion.
Where is the harm in that?

You're in a professional context, and a position of power. You can wait until you're not. You really don't see how making an advance in that scenario is putting someone in an awkward position? Of course it's not and shouldn't be illegal to put someone in an awkward position

Or say you've just interviewed for a job, it goes pretty well, and one of the interviewers asks you out? There wouldn't be anything going through your head about the implications of saying no, the fear of repercussion as you put it, or what kind of work environment you'd be entering if you got the job?

xtal191

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TheShow

silent_spark wrote: »

Do you really not understand why it would be inappropriate for a tax assessor to ask the person they’re assessing out?

See comment re duty of care. However any other scenario has to be acceptable as long as it’s respectfully done. And the usual common sense should be applied.

Press_Start

I think there is certainly a fine line between harrassment and showing interest. But also there's a fine line between beng flattered and being harrassed.

Exhibit A: I go up to a yung wan in town, I think she looks deadly, I ask her for her number. I'm not a bad looking dude, and she says yeah sure. Happy days. No Harrassment. Just lucky.

Exhibit B: I do the same. I ask her for her number. She's taken aback, and is insulted.
Not so good. Innapropriate and forward

Exhibit C: I'm in town at a nightclub, and do the same. We exchange and it's all good. It's normal behaviour for the environment

Exhibit

I'm behind her in line at the petrol station. she sees me looking at her. I follow her to her car and ask her for her number as she gets in. She's trapped, and been followed. Not so good either. Not appropriate, polite, or friendly, can even be intimidating.

It's just a sense of decorum that needs to be gauged. Gone are the days when you could approach a woman and tell her you liked her and she'd be delighted and you'd be together for life. Gone also are the days of arranging weddings where you didnt even know the person.

Since women have become more independant and the initial rise of second wave feminism, they are different creatures altogether, as are men, and as are practiced social norms.

For some women to claim they were sexually harrassed when they were asked for a phone number is not fair to men, or actual harrassment victims. There is nothing sexual about it, just innapropriate behaviour. Like asking a man on the train how large his bank account is. It's not the time or the place, and there's been no groundwork led.
Likewise for men to dismiss actual claims as being her fault. Yes she's wearing a low cut top. Yes she's wearing a mini skirt. Yes you can see her cleavage. You do not need to pass comment on it. Just enjoy that she looks good, and stop reading into it. I like the look of myself in a suit, I don't expect women to come up and pince my arse or comment on my btrouser bulge.

TL;DR People need to learn the difference between rude innapropriate comments, and bonafide sexual harrassement.

Gbear

Greta Uneven Termite wrote: »

If there was a social media campaign that had people posting metoo if they owned a dog, by the logic of this debate the main upshot of this would be that it's an anti cat campaign and also that anyone who owns a terrier shouldn't join in because some people own Great Danes.

You would absolutely see that.

You could be talking about handing out free money and there'd be people moaning and whataboutery being fired from every corner.

A Little Pony

Why do you think so many young people go to clubs men and women? To see who they hook up with and shag obviously. This idea that women don't like sex as much as men or sleeping around is a myth. Weinstein was just a weirdo and possibly a criminal (let's see what the courts say about that), it's never going to change the relationships between men and women and how they have interacted for hundreds of thousands of years to basically get 'it' away.

RayM

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

That tweet predates the #MeToo hashtag. Is there a man here who hasn't, at some point, been smiled at by an attractive woman and (at least momentarily) thought: "She fancies me!"? Be honest...

[Deleted User]

Deleted User wrote:

No it won't. In no way will it. People jumping on a bandwagon will do the polar opposite of converting non believers.

Can you name anyone "jumping on the bandwagon"?
I see people stating that they have been abused

Gbear

Press_Start wrote: »

I think there is certainly a fine line between harrassment and showing interest. But also there's a fine line between beng flattered and being harrassed.

Exhibit A: I go up to a yung wan in town, I think she looks deadly, I ask her for her number. I'm not a bad looking dude, and she says yeah sure. Happy days. No Harrassment. Just lucky.

Exhibit B: I do the same. I ask her for her number. She's taken aback, and is insulted.
Not so good. Innapropriate and forward

Exhibit C: I'm in town at a nightclub, and do the same. We exchange and it's all good. It's normal behaviour for the environment

Exhibit I'm behind her in line at the petrol station. she sees me looking at her. I follow her to her car and ask her for her number as she gets in. She's trapped, and been followed. Not so good either. Not appropriate, polite, or friendly, can even be intimidating.

It's just a sense of decorum that needs to be gauged. Gone are the days when you could approach a woman and tell her you liked her and she'd be delighted and you'd be together for life. Gone also are the days of arranging weddings where you didnt even know the person.

People think this stuff comes naturally but it absolutely doesn't to a lot of people (such as myself, which is why I avoid trying to chat up women).

You see a pretty lady, you get a blast of hormones and immediately you're thinking of a string of bad ideas.
It takes a degree of experience and nous to take a step back and assess the situation and see it from the pretty lady's perspective.

I swear to ****, they should do some speed dating lessons as part of sex ed.
It's also an absolutely massive reason why gender-divided schools are a terrible idea.