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Child Item

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

RobertKK

The citizens assembly voted to replace or amend the 8th amendment.

50% voted to replace or amend
44% voted to repeal
Rest preferred to not state an opinion

Now deciding how it will be replaced or amended
: Let the Dail legislate on the rights of the unborn
: Amend the provision in the constitution.

Meltdown on twitter by Repealthe8th people.

Mod- This thread has descended in to petty name calling. We've tried to let this thread run without too much mod interference but now it's on our radar we will be watching. From here on the name calling stops. If you can't debate civilly we will remove your right to post.

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nozzferrahhtoo

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Of course it's a happy ending. Both human beings involved are alive.

If that is your ONLY criteria for "Happy ending" then sure, you got what YOU wanted. She probably didn't though.

And I, unlike others, am not about to make those assumptions in her absence, on her behalf. Because from what little I know so far, she did not want to be a mother. Just like many women and girls do not want to form and mother a child that is a daily reminder of how they were raped, used, and impregnated against their will.

And I would prefer to judge the "happy ending" based on HER situation and what SHE wants / wanted. You appear to be basing it on what YOU wanted to happen. Which is a level of selfishness I am afraid I can not employ.

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Martina1991

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Of course it's a happy ending. Both human beings involved are alive. We can work from there. If two people were in a car crash and both were saved and someone said that was a happy ending, wouldn't you think it bizarre for someone to suggest it may not be a happy ending?

We? Society? The state?
The state let this girl down by not providing the mental health support she needed before this pregnancy. It fails people every day.

Someone very dear to me suffers from mental health issues. They admit and seek help when they they feel worse but the buck stops when they see a doctor. "Take these sleeping tablets and be on your way".

Many people survive car crashes but many then have permanent physical and mental disabilities from them. They do not have the life they had before the crash. Everything has changed.

Everything has changed for that young girl and she had no say in it. That was her car crash.

eviltwin

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Of course it's a happy ending. Both human beings involved are alive. We can work from there. If two people were in a car crash and both were saved and someone said that was a happy ending, wouldn't you think it bizarre for someone to suggest it may not be a happy ending?

I wonder does the girl involved share your opinion.

Outlaw Pete

January wrote: »

I'm sorry, how do you, I, or anyone else except the girl and her mother know how this story has turned out? Your perceived 'happy ending' could be very far from the truth. Just because the baby has remained in the care of the young girl and her family, does not mean that it's a happy ending for anyone involved in what happened here.

I'm not saying that the baby isn't loved btw, just that it could be very different from the happy ending you're painting here.

Of course it's a happy ending. Both human beings involved are alive. We can work from there. If two people were in a car crash and both were saved and someone said that was a happy ending, wouldn't you think it bizarre for someone to suggest it may not be a happy ending?

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keano_afc

....... wrote: »

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"Sadly, many of them really will be delighted if that this is her fate. They would love that to happen to all unmarried pregnant people".

Thats not fact, thats a biased assumption based on the poster's personal opinion of pro-life supporters.

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keano_afc

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Sadly, many of them really will be delighted if that this is her fate. They would love that to happen to all unmarried pregnant people.

keano_afc wrote: »

Much like most pro-choice people will love it if she commits suicide to prove their point.

Your turn. I like this game where we throw wild accusations and assumptions around.

We're playing a game where you make a ridiculous assumption and then counteract it with one of your own.

Martina1991

keano_afc wrote: »

Much like most pro-choice people will love it if she commits suicide to prove their point.
Your turn. I like this game where we throw wild accusations and assumptions around.

I used to be pro-life and now consider myself pro-choice.

I, nor anyone else would wish the suicide of anyone else. What is wrong with you?

I came around to the decision of pro-choice because who the fvck am I to tell my sister/ cousin/ friend/ neighbor/ teacher/ boss what to do with THEIR body.

Terminations happen every day. A sad reality for pro-life supporters but it is a fact.

They will continue to happen. Irish women will continue to go abroad to have them when they feel they have no other option.

Legalising abortion, either entirely or on medical grounds is a right that is already available elsewhere and should be available here.

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keano_afc

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Sadly, many of them really will be delighted if that this is her fate. They would love that to happen to all unmarried pregnant people.

Much like most pro-choice people will love it if she commits suicide to prove their point.

Your turn. I like this game where we throw wild accusations and assumptions around.

Martina1991

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Or she might just end up loving the child to bit as most mothers do? Wild speculation here.

Suicidal thought don't just disappear either. She is now a 16/17 year old girl with severe mental health issues and an infant.

nozzferrahhtoo

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Dont do anecdotes.

Or replies it seems. But I think you will notice I did not limit myself to anecdotes, but also gave other examples like the Catholic Church being both against abortion and historically against the very thing that would reduce them.

Dotsie~tmp

Dont do anecdotes.

nozzferrahhtoo

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Or she might just end up loving the child to bit as most mothers do? Wild speculation here.

What is with the "or" there though? Nothing in the text you quoted is mutually exclusive with what you said. She could end up loving the child as much as any mother does, and STILL all the things the user above wrote could be true. She might just as easily, for example, have pursued all her career dreams, and then ended up loving the child she had when SHE chose to have one and when SHE felt in an emotional and financial place to have a child with the partner SHE chose to have a child with.

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

More wild assertion without proof.

Perhaps, I can not speak to that users comment. But anecdotally (and anecdote is not evidence, so take it as such) I have run into a LOT of people against abortion choice who are also against all the things many pro choice people campaign for to reduce abortions.

Some of them are opposed to contraception for example. Some of them are against the idea of better and MUCH earlier sexual education of our children (under the cop out canard of claiming to want to maintain childhood innocence). Some of them have been opposed to modifications that would support single parent families.

I will not go through the full list, but my experience has surprised me that so many people against abortions also seem to be against the very things that would reduce the number of abortions. Even the catholic church for example, opposed to abortion as they are, were for many many years an opponent of contraception.

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cnocbui

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The Citizens Assembly recommended removing the 8th completely and replacing it with an explicit statement that the Oireachteas may legislate in this area. That's what we should be voting on.

And I think it will lose, and we will have to try again in 10 years.

But replacing the ridiculous 8th amendment with another stupid amendment about abortion which will generate hard cases where women die and folks trot off to the Supreme court and we end up having another campaign to amend it again in 20 years is pointless.

It is completely retarded for a country to even mention abortion in it's constitution.

seamus

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Sadly, many of them really will be delighted if that this is her fate. They would love that to happen to all unmarried pregnant people.

Well, typically they would prefer that she didn't receive welfare. Usually a strong correlation between being pro-life and anti-welfare. Many are driven less by concern for the unborn and more by the belief that people should be punished for mistakes as fully as possible.

Zubeneschamali

Akrasia wrote: »

I'm sure all the pro-life people who are delighted with her happy ending will also be happy that she might never get to go to college now, might never get to pursue her dreams and might end up as a single mother receiving welfare until the child is old enough that she can get part time work and eek out a survival that way.

Sadly, many of them really will be delighted if that this is her fate. They would love that to happen to all unmarried pregnant people.

seamus

mahamageehad wrote: »

It'll probo be a yes/no vote but there's some moves towards a preferendum which would give choices. And I'm sure you're good with tests! :P

There is no provision in law or the constitution for a "preferendum", it's not legally possible to do.

At best you could hold a non-binding plebiscite to ask the public which wording they would prefer to then have a referendum on. But that seems wasteful - especially when the government could just ignore the outcome and choose their own wording.
The citizen's assembly has already done the selection of the wording by proxy, and that's the way it should go really.

It probably will - when you have a committee where all of the experts are on one side making the same recommendation and the only committee members proposing anything else are two religious ignoramuses with no expertise in the area, it's clear what needs to be done.

Dotsie~tmp

Akrasia wrote: »

I'm sure all the pro-life people who are delighted with her happy ending will also be happy that she might never get to go to college now, might never get to pursue her dreams and might end up as a single mother receiving welfare until the child is old enough that she can get part time work and eek out a survival that way.

Or she might just end up loving the child to bit as most mothers do? Wild speculation here.

...a lot of the same people who oppose abortion also oppose services and supports for one parent families and look down on these people

More wild assertion without proof.

Akrasia

I'm sure all the pro-life people who are delighted with her happy ending will also be happy that she might never get to go to college now, might never get to pursue her dreams and might end up as a single mother receiving welfare until the child is old enough that she can get part time work and eek out a survival that way.

I don't know anything about this girl, I wish her the best, I hope she has the support of her family and community and can access the state resources required to allow her to complete her education and access the workplace, but being a single parent is very hard, and a lot of the same people who oppose abortion also oppose services and supports for one parent families and look down on these people

eviltwin

Peter Boylan made a good point about the availability of abortion in the UK and how things would be much more dire here if that avenue wasn't available.

I wonder post Brexit what that will mean for women here if things don't change.

Zubeneschamali

mahamageehad wrote: »

Each option has pros and cons. 1 I believe is one of the most popular choices right now,

1 was my preference until the Citizen's Assembly report, now I like 6, their recommendation.

Zubeneschamali

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Any opinions on how the Ref might play out? Looks like a difficult one for repeal if question is overly liberal.

The Citizens Assembly recommended removing the 8th completely and replacing it with an explicit statement that the Oireachteas may legislate in this area. That's what we should be voting on.

And I think it will lose, and we will have to try again in 10 years.

But replacing the ridiculous 8th amendment with another stupid amendment about abortion which will generate hard cases where women die and folks trot off to the Supreme court and we end up having another campaign to amend it again in 20 years is pointless.

eviltwin

January wrote: »

I'm sorry, how do you, I, or anyone else except the girl and her mother know how this story has turned out? Your perceived 'happy ending' could be very far from the truth. Just because the baby has remained in the care of the young girl and her family, does not mean that it's a happy ending for anyone involved in what happened here.

I'm not saying that the baby isn't loved btw, just that it could be very different from the happy ending you're painting here.

'Happy endings' are often just people making the best of a bad situation.

January

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Why are you (along with almost all of the Irish/UK media) only telling half the story?

Now, considering the media feasted on this story to begin with (both here and in the UK) why then was it that the outcome of the case was only reported in one paper? Didn't the rest feel that their readership would like to know that the girl went on to gave birth to a healthy baby? Surely that was newsworthy, no?

Or maybe a happy ending was somewhat ideologically inconvenient for the prochoice biased media perhaps. Once they could no longer sanctimonious use the girl (and her situation) to further their agenda.... they moved on as if she never existed. Colour me surprised.

I'm sorry, how do you, I, or anyone else except the girl and her mother know how this story has turned out? Your perceived 'happy ending' could be very far from the truth. Just because the baby has remained in the care of the young girl and her family, does not mean that it's a happy ending for anyone involved in what happened here.

I'm not saying that the baby isn't loved btw, just that it could be very different from the happy ending you're painting here.

Billy86

Tigger wrote: »

the ssm was obvious
everyone deserves to get married ots a social contract between adults

Abortion is a more complicated issue (I'm not for 'abortions on demand' so to speak personally), but I do believe getting rid of the 8th as it stands is pretty obvious in all. The same people who are at the centre of being against this are the same people who were at the centre of being against SSM, and the same lines were trotted out for SSM yet it won in all but perhaps the most rural/conservative constituency in the country (and only lost there by 48.5% to 51.5%).

It's not one I buy into, to be honest. People will make their minds up based on the information available to them and their own feelings about it in terms of morals etc. On the whole we've actually proven to be quite a good bunch when it comes to observing the actual information available to us on such matters I think as well as the state itself in terms of running a well organised and informed referendum, compared for example with what we've seen across the water.

nozzferrahhtoo

freshpopcorn wrote: »

What will happen if the repeal campaign fails?

The same thing as I HOPE happens if it succeeds. That we as a society will not consider ANY result as set in stone for all time, and will revisit it again in the future when there might be new data, arguments, and conditions to consider.

The joy of living in a discourse based democracy is that NO result is, or should be, final. Moral and ethical discourse should not be a set of laws written in stone, but an ongoing, iterative, and never ending conversation from all sides.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Once they could no longer sanctimonious use the girl (and her situation) to further their agenda....

Just like YOU are doing here and now you mean? At least I can hold my hands up and honestly claim that I never used her case then OR now to lord it over the other side. You are. For shame.

That said however, since you are bringing up the case as if it is some kind of success story......... in a country that offers choice based abortion services up until, lets say, 16 weeks, the girl in question might have had choices open to her that meant she never entered into the string of stress and evaluation and committal and confusion and so forth that she did. Both in terms of the stresses of her actual cases, and the stresses of her falling under the media eye and social media judgements of the mob.

She could have instead happily ambled up to a clinic and CHOSEN to have an abortion without having to prove herself to be suicidal to do it.

What worries me, much like the Blasphemy law incentivises offence, if people seeking abortion have to present as suicidal to access one....... this potentially incentivises being suicidal.

Is that a good thing? And if people are not convinced you are suicidal enough what do you do? Stage a suicide attempt maybe? Not a great idea given some people who only wanted to STAGE an attempt, have actually managed to erroneously achieve one.