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Disobeying Safety Warnings - Should it be crime/punishable offence?

AudreyHepburn

Now that Hurricane has passed there is much discussion about the many people who not only put their own lives at risk by disobeying Met Eireann's safety warnings but also the lives of the rescue personnel sent out after them.

I personally see such actions as selfish and idiotic and I firmly believe that anyone who deliberately disobeys safety warnings to go swimming, kite surfing etc and subsequently calls out the emergency services to help them should at the very least be fined.

The Rescue 116 tragedy showed us exactly how dangerous the job our rescue services do at the best of times - the idea that people would have so little disregard for them that they willingly disobey safety warnings boils my blood.

What do my fellow boardsies think?

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Donal55

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I'd just like to point out I'm not suggesting that we take away people's freedom of choice, only that if they make reckless choices that put the lives of others at risk they must be held accountable.

Red Weather Warnings are not issued for no reason.

Could we use your argument to prosecute employers who force their employees to turn in?

'Red Weather Warnings are not issued for no reason.'

AudreyHepburn

Permabear wrote: »

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It's not martial law at all - it's about making people take responsibility for their actions and protecting our emergency service personnel.

AudreyHepburn

Donal55 wrote: »

Could we use your argument to prosecute employers who force their employees to turn in?

'Red Weather Warnings are not issued for no reason.'

Chance would be a fine thing!

AudreyHepburn

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm suggesting nothing of the sort and if you'd read my op properly you'd know that.

I was referring to those who take stupid risks like Kite Surfing during a hurricane forcing the emergency services to put their lives at risk to rescue them.

Hitman3000

Permabear wrote:

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There in lies the issue 'only a tiny handful of them endangered anyone else's life' They have no right to endanger anyone's life during a situation like yesterday.

Permabear

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andekwarhola

Criminal offence is probably going too far. I sense that's just a populist soundbite from Varadkar.

Also instructing the emergency service to ignore them is equally rash and probably prone to error. For example, somebody swept out to sea rather than swimming.

Also where do you draw the line? For example, insisting in driving to work during a red alert.

That said, I'd love to see deliberate and egregious acts of stupidity like those witnessed yesterday, that waste the time of the emergency services, punished in some way, perhaps in the form of a forced financial or labour contribution to the service.

AudreyHepburn

Permabear wrote: »

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Let's try this again - I am not talking about taking away people's freedom of choice but if you make the decision to behave recklessly despite numerous warnings and then put other people's lives at risk by doing so you need to be held responsible.

If not a criminal offense then it should at be punishable by a fine or having to the bill for the call out.

It's not that hard to understand really.

Criminal offense might have been the wrong phrase so apologies for any agro caused.

Permabear

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Discodog

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Met Eireann only wanted to give a red warning for seven counties and an orange warning everywhere else. It was the national emergency committee that decided to extend it to the whole country

I have no idea why you would think that is of any relevance.

That happened inland 5 hours later.

Really ? It was obvious that the forecast needed a full country warning. Posters in the excellent weather forum here were calling for it .
The storm was expanding & was obviously going to affect most of the country.

AudreyHepburn

Permabear wrote: »

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So what do you suggest then? You say you're not endorsing reckless behavior but what else do you call refusal to accept any form of punishment?

Discodog

Permabear wrote: »

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No one is suggesting that. The red warning would include what you should & should not do. Some things would be advisory like travelling but obvious dangers like swimming & ignoring the instructions of Gardai would be mandatory.

It's simply bonkers that a Guard can't stop you from walking along a closed road or climbing on a diving board.

railer201

I'm trying to imagine an airborne kite surfer whizzing around inside a hurricane - maybe someone will try it some day and report back !

BrianBoru00

To play devils advocate here and I'm not trying to trivialise the loss of life. But should people who were out on the street walking past / under trees or those driving on roads where trees were located also be prosecuted for putting first responders at risk.

Emergency personnel had to respond and were therefore put into the exact same danger as the fatalities in the two Munster cases.
There's an argument to be made that the water was no more excessively rough than other days with no warnings in place - that people in the sea were actually safer than those walking the prom for example.

The kitesurfers it appears were not in danger and did not require assistance. I think wasting emergency services time should be dealt with a lot more sternly - i.e. a severe fine but as I said - theres a strong argument that walkers out and about were in far more danger due to the huge amount of flying debris from trees in particular

elperello

Considering that this was a rare event and that we probably (though not definitely) have time to make changes before the next one I would advise against any quick fix legislation.
Better to have a period of reflection followed by a public consultation involving all relevant stakeholders and interested parties.

Arsemageddon

Discodog wrote: »

Really ? It was obvious that the forecast needed a full country warning. Posters in the excellent weather forum here were calling for it .
The storm was expanding & was obviously going to affect most of the country.

I'm just going by what Eibhlin Cusack said.

fryup

let them adrenaline junkies drown, most of them are assh@les anyway no loss

Permabear

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josip

Are people in this country incapable of reading and disseminating a weather forecast?
For a nation that spends so much time talking about the weather, many of us never escape our own local mindset.
[Phone Call Home]
"What's the weather like with you up there?"
Sunny.
"Really? It's raining down here."
(Home is 200 fcuking kms south of here)

Loads on here saying that the wind surfers in Louth shouldn't have been out there because of the nationwide red alert.
But in that case, nor should the "passerby" who called in the FA.
Some places report that the passerby didn't call it in because they were concerned, but because they "felt it to be irresponsible"

http://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/home/276434/two-kite-surfers-in-difficulty-in-blackrock.html

And they were wind surfers, not kite surfers for those of you who don't know the difference but do seem to know everything else.

Shemale

Let them win Darwin Awards why should the emergency services be put in harms way to rescue morons. Or make them pay the €100,000 call out and give the rescue team a percentage between them.

Its like the simpletons that frequently get into trouble climbing mountains in the snow

Permabear

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gctest50

They could start here :

Should be kicked senseless for dragging a 3 year old up there :

http://www.thejournal.ie/croagh-patrick-hypothermia-2237366-Jul2015/

A THREE YEAR old was among at least eight people who were treated for hypothermia after climbing Croagh Patrick yesterday – despite warnings not to do so because of adverse weather conditions.

needs a bit of this :

Five Korean pilgrims were rescued during the last week of January in the Izandorre shelter, after being left isolated by snow while climbing to Ibañeta. Now they'll have to pay the 1,500 euros that the operation cost Navarre Emergency Agency (NSA) the operation. The five young men foolishly ignored the warnings of locals at different times to not continue through the forest because of the storm of wind and snow (which reached reached depths of thicknesses greater than 70 centimeters in the Pyrenees)...

Navarra thus joins the list of regions that have put a price on the bailouts. Cataluña was the first to do so in 2009, was followed by the Basque Country in 2011, and to date Cantabria, Asturias, Castilla & León and Valencia have joined the initiative.

Spokesmen from the NSA explained that each case would be studied separately, but they said that by "imprudence" is understood "recklessly disregarding weather alerts" or "not being properly equipped in a particular context." ...

The price for a rescue evacuation by helicopter ascends to 1,400 euros. However, this is not the actual cost of aircraft utilization, since the government of Navarra explained that the true cost for sending a helicopter crew, a pilot, a doctor and a nurse, costs just over 2,000 euros. For this reason, they explain, the rates are designed to be dissuasive and not a means of collecting revenue.

Discodog

josip wrote: »

Are people in this country incapable of reading and disseminating a weather forecast?
For a nation that spends so much time talking about the weather, many of us never escape our own local mindset.
[Phone Call Home]
"What's the weather like with you up there?"
Sunny.
"Really? It's raining down here."
(Home is 200 fcuking kms south of here)

Loads on here saying that the wind surfers in Louth shouldn't have been out there because of the nationwide red alert.
But in that case, nor should the "passerby" who called in the FA.
Some places report that the passerby didn't call it in because they were concerned, but because they "felt it to be irresponsible"

http://www.dundalkdemocrat.ie/news/home/276434/two-kite-surfers-in-difficulty-in-blackrock.html

And they were wind surfers, not kite surfers for those of you who don't know the difference but do seem to know everything else.

There is a world of different between going for a walk & being in the sea.

It clearly was irresponsible when, these so called experts, didn't bother to let the Coastguard know that they were out after a Red warning. I hope that the surfers won't mind when they are drowning & a passer by assumes they are waving.

Discodog

Permabear wrote: »

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No one is suggesting this. The Coastguard regarded it as a non malicious call out. They will never complain if someone acts in what they see as genuine reasons.

The Red warning can say specifics like do not enter the sea & obey the instructions of Gardai.

steddyeddy

Disobeying Safety Warnings? No. Disobeying safety Warnings and calling rescue services over your own idiocy? A big yes. Whether that punishment be a fine or prosecution something needs to be done. Those kite surfers knowingly endangered people's lives yesterday.

gctest50

Discodog wrote: »

It clearly was irresponsible when, these so called experts,

better at it than u :

josip

Discodog wrote: »

There is a world of different between going for a walk & being in the sea.

It clearly was irresponsible when, these so called experts, didn't bother to let the Coastguard know that they were out after a Red warning. I hope that the surfers won't mind when they are drowning & a passer by assumes they are waving.

Not necessarily. Depending on the conditions and the skillset of the individuals concerned, the person in the sea might be at less risk.

Falling trees and wind blown debris were the real dangers yesterday. The people on land were the ones at risk from that.

GritBiscuit

Imo, the government can introduce mandatory curfews during states of emergencies and also legal repercussions for breaking them - what they can't do is make a state broadcaster "recommendation" and then punish people who decide not to take on board that recommendation.

By all means insist the emergency services won't be out between x to y hours because nobody should be out - but when you start getting into the ridiculously subjective grey area of deeming one situation where the people didn't need or want help worthy of being a crime while other, equally dangerous, situations seem to pass without comment - that is not the basis for good law.

Permabear

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Arsemageddon

Discodog wrote: »

There is a world of different between going for a walk & being in the sea.

It clearly was irresponsible when, these so called experts, didn't bother to let the Coastguard know that they were out after a Red warning. I hope that the surfers won't mind when they are drowning & a passer by assumes they are waving.

The three people who died were killed by falling trees. Falling trees are not a hazard usually associated with wind surfing.

It has never been common practice to let the coastguard or RNLI know that you are heading our to sea, if that was the case those organisations would be snowed under with pointless paper work.

The only 'experts' on this thread are people who clearly have no experience of water sports or the sea.