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Extending the Luas beyond Red, Green and BXD - see post #14

Rojomur

Now i know im getting ahead of myself with this post as i know planning for the likes of LUAS extensions takes decades/generations...but i cant help notice there is a destinct lack of future LUAS lines along where the majority of building has already taken place south of the liffey, and indeed where large scale building is already underway. A short 2km line from college green up townsend street-up to misery hill and over hanover quay would connect litterly thousands of workers and residents to the rest of the luas with very little effort. The council are trying their best to getting residents out of their cars with the College Green proposal but alternative transport along this section of the city is pretty poor. There are major building projects already underway and in planning along this route and its only a short hop over to the Gas Bottle site in ringsend which is gonna be devoleped at some point soon. The current proposal to knock Hawkins and Apollo house beside pearse street opens up the area for civic amenities to be close to the luas line as well as a connection to DART at Tara street. Just wondering has this route been considered by planners???

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strassenwo!f

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You claim there is no demand for a frequency below 3 minutes. The luas frequency is between 3-5 minutes and is rammed at peak the new green line trams will be 54 meters long but will only add space for an additional 60 people it's basically maxed out

If you look at many European cities which rely largely on trams, and a city like Dresden would be a nice example, you will see many tram lines going every which way. For people living or working between these lines the lines are effectively competing with each other to hoover up custom from their catchment area, which overlaps with the realistic catchment area of one or more other lines. This is good for the consumer.

In Dublin's southside, there is a dearth of tram lines (relative to somewhere like Dresden, I stress, not to the rest of Dublin), so the catchment area for each tram or rail line is huge, and there's effectively no competition between them. This is not good for the consumer: for example, someone living near to the N11 in Stillorgan, say, isn't particularly close to the DART and also isn't particularly close to the LUAS. Such a person, and there are many, has a fairly significant trip to get to the DART or the LUAS even to start their journey on rail-based transport.

The proposal to improve the service on the LUAS green line by extending the metro north via a tunnel between St. Stephen's Green and Ranelagh fails to address this issue. If a tunnel needs to be built, it would be much better to build a tunnel between St. Stephen's Green and the N11 to create an entirely new corridor between the DART and the LUAS, which would also relieve the pressure on both by hoovering up many people who are currently caught between those two stools and who should not, by the standards of a developed city like Dresden, be part of the catchment area of either.

The same goes for the area between the red and green lines, though the gap is much larger and there is an even larger amount of people who are not close to either DART or LUAS. Someone in Terenure, for example, is very remote from either of the LUAS lines and light years away from the DART.

I believe that it would make more sense to build such a tunnel from St. Stephen's Green toward the south-west of the city (eventually leading to routes serving Rathmines, Harold's Cross, Terenure, Walkinstown, etc.), because there is no obvious overground LUAS route between those areas and the city centre, while the N11 presents several possibilities.

The idea with such a tunnel would be that it would introduce competition along two or more new routes, between the southside red and green LUAS lines, to improve the consumer experience for those on the current routes and those on the potential new routes, by relieving pressure on both red and green LUAS lines by reducing their effective catchment areas.

strassenwo!f

I fully understand that most of the people in the NTA have little or no experience of living/working for a significant length of time in a city outside of Ireland. I think it is very important that they have an opportunity to see the views of those who have, on issues like the fantastic public transport we've seen, and all very kindly enabled by the good folk here at boards.ie.

Rojomur

Going off in a slightly different direction and d something that wont happen for years but ive seen the latest draft proposal by fingal county council online. They are looking to secure a track of land from lissenhall to donabate for future rail line.... It looks to be connecting the future metro north beyond the airport to Dart in Donabate. Could be very benefitial to all the bew houses proposed for lissenhall and north of swords... I hope the link below works.

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/proposed-material-alterations-draft-fingal-development-plan-2017-2023/chapter/sheet-7-–

LeinsterDub

Rojomur wrote: »

Going off in a slightly different direction and d something that wont happen for years but ive seen the latest draft proposal by fingal county council online. They are looking to secure a track of land from lissenhall to donabate for future rail line.... It looks to be connecting the future metro north beyond the airport to Dart in Donabate. Could be very benefitial to all the bew houses proposed for lissenhall and north of swords... I hope the link below works.

https://consult.fingal.ie/en/consultation/proposed-material-alterations-draft-fingal-development-plan-2017-2023/chapter/sheet-7-–;

Interesting. Link doesn't work BTW

Rojomur

Its odd leinsterDub....my link doesnt work but when i click on the link in your quote box it doesðŸ€”ðŸ€”. Anyway Its down at SH7.7 and the map shows the transport corridor if you want to look. It doesnt specify what kind of transport but its coming from the metro north lissenhall area.

ricimaki

Here are links to the PDF, and sheet 7 (Donabate) and 8 (Swords) jpg images for reference. Sheet 8 shows the end of Metro north, but 7 shows no mention of Metro or rail transport:
PDF
Sheet 7
Sheet 8

Rojomur

The plan im talking about is titled Book of sheets 1-16 and its on pg 38 of the plan. Its accessed from the fingal coco site and its under Stage 3 Material Proposed Alterations from the Develipment plan home tab. Sorry i cant create link. As i said it doesnt specify rail connection...just says future transport connection which from the map comes directly off the future metro north track between estuary and lisenhall. Hopefully somebody can figure out how to create a link to this particular document. The reason im mentioning it here is that there seems to be quiet a few people on other boards discussion sites whom reckon the future metro north will not be DART heavy rail, but maybe a luas type connection to save money.

xper

Idbatterim wrote: »

new cherrywood town of 30,000 to be served by four existing luas stop. Surely it now makes sense for the council, to have a development plan in place for the extension to bray, so that similar schemes can be routed along its length?

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/biggest-ever-development-will-house-30000-35438925.html

Well yes, it would so they do. That's why the B2 extension proposal to Bray/Fasseroe exists in the first place and follows the proposed route(s) it does through/to greenfield sites. There are major developments earmarked for Woodbrook, Fasseroe and the former golf club lands in Bray, all served by the proposed Luas B2 route. Planning permission has been applied for for the first element of the Fasseroe new town and a school and access roads are already under construction on the site in Bray. Of course, unlike Cherrywood, it looks like the Luas will arrive long after the building gets underway, if ever.

We generally have had no trouble in the last thirty years or so with getting qualified, competent planning professionals to come up with joined-up, long term plans for urban development. The problem is the political meddling in implementing these plans.

newacc2015

xper wrote: »

Well yes, it would so they do. That's why the B2 extension proposal to Bray/Fasseroe exists in the first place and follows the proposed route(s) it does through/to greenfield sites. There are major developments earmarked for Woodbrook, Fasseroe and the former golf club lands in Bray, all served by the proposed Luas B2 route. Planning permission has been applied for for the first element of the Fasseroe new town and a school and access roads are already under construction on the site in Bray. Of course, unlike Cherrywood, it looks like the Luas will arrive long after the building gets underway, if ever.

If we had a proper LPT system, the councils could build these with the justification of they will collect x amount more of LPT due to the new lines. But there isn't even LPT on properties built post 2013!

Brooklyn is getting new tramlines, as the city knows the hike in property taxes from the increased property value will cover a lot of the construction cost. That should be the same here.

Do you know if there is at least development levies for the Luas lines on these new developments?

Last Stop

Would love to see a line continuing from Metro North at Stephens Green - Lesson st - Surfacing after Donnybrook, travelling along the N11 and tying back into the green line at Sandyford.
Would take pressure off Cherrywood and also serve UCD and Stillorgan.
At the minute the N11 is roughly equidistant between the DART snd LUAS yet both are a bit too far to use everyday.

MJohnston

Last Stop wrote: »

Would love to see a line continuing from Metro North at Stephens Green - Lesson st - Surfacing after Donnybrook, travelling along the N11 and tying back into the green line at Sandyford.
Would take pressure off Cherrywood and also serve UCD and Stillorgan.
At the minute the N11 is roughly equidistant between the DART snd LUAS yet both are a bit too far to use everyday.

Would say that it'd be a decent enough route (hence the QBC along the N11 at the minute), but way down the priority list given that, as you mention, the DART and Green Line surround this area. Dublin priority has to be Metro North, DU, then R114 and N2 corridors imo. After that, we will have the major "spokes" of a network in place and can start working on orbital connections and more granular "spokes" in between them.

quadrifoglio verde

MJohnston wrote: »

Would say that it'd be a decent enough route (hence the QBC along the N11 at the minute), but way down the priority list given that, as you mention, the DART and Green Line surround this area. Dublin priority has to be Metro North, DU, then R114 and N2 corridors imo. After that, we will have the major "spokes" of a network in place and can start working on orbital connections and more granular "spokes" in between them.

Metro north should continue south, stopping at Camden St, Harold's cross, terenure and rathfarnham. That whole area is dreadfully serviced by public transport and the bus situation is a joke. I've walked into town a few times faster than the 16 at rush hour in the morning.

Dardania

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

MJohnston wrote: »

Would say that it'd be a decent enough route (hence the QBC along the N11 at the minute), but way down the priority list given that, as you mention, the DART and Green Line surround this area. Dublin priority has to be Metro North, DU, then R114 and N2 corridors imo. After that, we will have the major "spokes" of a network in place and can start working on orbital connections and more granular "spokes" in between them.

Metro north should continue south, stopping at Camden St, Harold's cross, terenure and rathfarnham. That whole area is dreadfully serviced by public transport and the bus situation is a joke. I've walked into town a few times faster than the 16 at rush hour in the morning.

That's a great idea. I alway presumed MN would just go north from Stephen's Green. But for the surprise factor in getting public / political support...could work

ncounties

I've always thought that if Metro North were to be extended South, it shouldn't follow the Green Line... I would agree with all stops bar Harold's Cross, preferring the alignment to be Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham.

quadrifoglio verde

ncounties wrote: »

I've always thought that if Metro North were to be extended South, it shouldn't follow the Green Line... I would agree with all stops bar Harold's Cross, preferring the alignment to be Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham.

Harold's cross brings in more people. Rathmines to beech wood is a 10 minute walk so is reasonably well served as it is by luas.
If you have a stop in Harold's cross, you cover the west side of rathmines from the main street to Harold's cross as well as kimmage.

strassenwo!f

ncounties wrote: »

I've always thought that if Metro North were to be extended South, it shouldn't follow the Green Line... I would agree with all stops bar Harold's Cross, preferring the alignment to be Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham.

I agree that it is too early too upgrade the green line while other parts of the city are in greater need of good public transport, so you are right that it should go to the south-west of the city, if anywhere on the southside.

But it is probably a mistake to think of an alignment, through areas of Dublin which have higher density than many suburbs of, for example, Munich, which already enjoy a U-Bahn service there. In order to utilise the capacity of the St. Stephen's Green - Airport section effectively it would be best to provide two alignments - as we see in cities like Munich - in this area, through a combination of tunnel and surface (and perhaps elevated?) routes.

I would, for example, favour St. Stephen's Green to an underground station near the Bleeding Horse, then to Rathmines - Rathgar - Terenure and beyond on one branch, and to Harold's Cross - Kimmage and Walkinston Cross (and maybe beyond) on another. Some bits of these branches might be surface or elevated.

Walkinstown Cross must certainly have enormous potential as a public transport node in this context, what with its location in the south-west, the large number of buses already going through there from many directions, and its closeness to the red line. Something very imaginative could surely be done there.

afatbollix

Finally found a map with old railways on it.

Never knew about the Lucan railway or the one to Blessington!

http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php

wakka12

The john rocque map 1888-1913 available on geohive is also good for seeing the old layout of the Dublin tram network, and if youre interested, a very detailed map of literally every building in old dublin! Sad we lost such extensive transport infrastrucutre

MayoSalmon

afatbollix wrote: »

Finally found a map with old railways on it.

Never knew about the Lucan railway or the one to Blessington!

http://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php

Hmm grandfather used to tell me there was a railway line out to Dingle many moons ago..cant see it on that map though?!

JohnC.

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Hmm grandfather used to tell me there was a railway line out to Dingle many moons ago..cant see it on that map though?!

I can. One of the first things which struck me.

afatbollix

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Hmm grandfather used to tell me there was a railway line out to Dingle many moons ago..cant see it on that map though?!

That would be perfect for a vintage tourism line.

loyatemu

afatbollix wrote: »

That would be perfect for a vintage tourism line.

they did relay a small section of it near Tralee as a tourist line, it failed a few years ago but I believe there is a group trying to get it running again: http://traleesteamrailway.webs.com/

Sierra Oscar

I hope we see the proposal to extend the Luas from Broombridge to Finglas progressed. I reckon that project should be prioritised. The wider Finglas area would benefit greatly and there's great opportunity for housing development in the area.

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Hmm grandfather used to tell me there was a railway line out to Dingle many moons ago..cant see it on that map though?!

It definitely existed. Some of it has been restored as a tourist attraction.

Tralee and Dingle Light Railway

wakka12

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I hope we see the proposal to extend the Luas from Broombridge to Finglas progressed. I reckon that project should be prioritised. The wider Finglas area would benefit greatly and there's great opportunity for housing development in the area.

It definitely existed. Some of it has been restored as a tourist attraction.

Tralee and Dingle Light Railway

Are there any concrete plans for that? Or any current plans for luas extension of either lines?

Sierra Oscar

wakka12 wrote: »

Are there any concrete plans for that? Or any current plans for luas extension of either lines?

It's contained in the NTA's Draft Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area 2016 - 2035

It is intended to extend Luas Cross City from its terminus at Broombridge to the north of Finglas. This will provide a high capacity radial service from this large suburb into the city centre. It is also intended to provide a strategic park and ride at the terminus of this line on the N2 national road close to the M50.

These proposals will serve the significant levels of forecast travel demand from this corridor to the city centre and Grangegorman.

It's important to note that the proposed Lucan & Poolbeg extensions are also proposed in the document. It reads like an aspirational document.

donvito99

A run from SSG down Leeson Street and the N11 would seem to be feasible. It has a high quality bus corridor, but the capacity of trams would seem to be perfect for that alignment. The Donnybrook bottleneck might be an issue. It could also be tied in rather easily with the depot at Sandyford.

GerardKeating

ncounties wrote: »

I've always thought that if Metro North were to be extended South, it shouldn't follow the Green Line... I would agree with all stops bar Harold's Cross, preferring the alignment to be Rathmines, Terenure, Rathfarnham.

The original plan for it to extend (as Metro South) to Tallaght, via Harolds Cross, Kimmage etc, part of "platform for change"

sdanseo

P+R model should be expanded - we need to get these lines out to the M50 or beyond.

Start where we have a base layer done already. From just before Broombridge there is space to expand as far as the M50 out the Finglas Road / N2 with minimal CPO. The main challenge is either a short tunnel bore under, or knocking, part of Dublin Industrial Estate. From there you have a clear run to Kilshane/North Road where a huge Park and Ride could be built. The entire route would be in central reservation with maybe 10 at grade junctions total, so good journey times as far as Dominic Street / Parnell.

Tunnel is probably not an option because of a lack of space but you could get away with knocking 7 or 8 units in the Industrial Estate and either compensate or build them new units out at North Road / M50 area.

Probably could be done for the same sort of costs as Cross City.

Indicative:

Idbatterim

I am not sure if this is possible in that location, but if not, why only go so far, why not ad a few more stops and allow high density residential along either side of the line?

Rojomur

Here is a link to an interesting article on old Tralee to Dingle railway.
http://www.narrowgauge.nl/site/english/tdsurvey.htm