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Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

gimmick

So this is a thread for your musings which do not deserve an entire thread of its own.

For example

I just watched Card Subject To Change. Horrific to think that since its been made the following has happened -

Kamala has become an amputee

Sensational Sherrie, Paul Bearer and Trent Acid are dead

Had Kevin Sullivan and Nancy stayed together one of Wrestlings darkest moments would be completely different or never would have happened.

Lacey Von Erich almost became a diva. She is also crazy hot. Pure nom.

I also mused that even while Sherri was a dispicable heel while she was on tv she may well have been my first celeb crush.

All this in one lazy evening.

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Agent Coulson

Finn would be better off over on Smackdown as would Anderson & Gallows.

Riddle101

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Finn would be better off over on Smackdown as would Anderson & Gallows.

It's still early times yet, but I could see Finn Balor winning the Royal Rumble and going over to Smackdown to challenge the WWE Champion. If Jinder Mahal is still champion by then as the rumors suggest, then Balor might be the one to defeat him.

CastorTroy

What they need to do is give Balor some character development. I know it's been said about everyone, but turn him heel for a bit and stop with the demon thing. I admit I'm not familiar with his Japan work but it seems the body paint was just decoration while now they adapted it to this demon persona which isn't any different than the normal persona, apart from the entrance.
As for character, what has he done to get over? He has talent but If he was to go up against Joe or a heel AJ, why should the fans cheer for Finn?

ShagNastii

Haven't been avidly watching Snackdown as of late but I'm continually questioning myself about Jinder. He's not a bad hand in the ring, looks phenomenal and is being presented pretty well.

If he wasn't completely parachuted into his title reign he really could have/can be someone really credible and great.

[Deleted User]

ShagNastii wrote: »

Haven't been avidly watching Snackdown as of late but I'm continually questioning myself about Jinder. He's not a bad hand in the ring, looks phenomenal and is being presented pretty well.

If he wasn't completely parachuted into his title reign he really could have/can be someone really credible and great.

US Title is where he should've went, even fits in with his anti-America/xenobhobe gimmick better.

Bounty Hunter

Omackeral wrote: »

US Title is where he should've went, even fits in with his anti-America/xenobhobe gimmick better.

I still think that's where he will end up after the WWE feel they have force fed us him as a main eventer enough so that people think of him as such. He will fulfill the role Rusev used to as the US champ except Rsev has so much more potential imo

That said I don't actually dislike Jinder

leggo

We've kinda had this debate before so I won't harp on too much but lads: AJ Styles was champ, name one absolute classic he had? The main event title matches are were WWE tend to get cute and do generic challengers/booking etc. In the US Title mix, you get great matches given time and main eventing TV because that champ wrestles pretty much weekly. So give me Jinder as champ and AJ as US Champ before the other way around any day.

ERG89

leggo wrote: »

We've kinda had this debate before so I won't harp on too much but lads: AJ Styles was champ, name one absolute classic he had?

His match vs Cena at the Rumble is the best match in WWE this year.

A Rogue Hobo

He also dragged the best match Ambrose has had in years at TLC. No small feat considering Ambrose hadn't had an exciting match for about a year before that.

leggo

ERG89 wrote: »

His match vs Cena at the Rumble is the best match in WWE this year.

That's true actually, forgot that! But my point still stands, if Jinder is US Champ he's the one wrestling every week and AJ becomes more of a special attraction with his programmes based around promos and angles. It's been that way forever: the heavyweight belt is where the storylines happen, the midcard belt is where the great matches happen, so give me great wrestlers being put in great matches.

A Rogue Hobo

leggo wrote:

That's true actually, forgot that! But my point still stands, if Jinder is US Champ he's the one wrestling every week and AJ becomes more of a special attraction with his programmes based around promos and angles. It's been that way forever: the heavyweight belt is where the storylines happen, the midcard belt is where the great matches happen, so give me great wrestlers being put in great matches.

How do you explain Miz being intercontinental champ for so long then? He carries feuds with his talent on the mic and personality, not with his wrestling ability.

leggo

You'd swear I was saying something controversial, it's a known thing that since the days of Savage/Steamboat, HBK/Razor etc that the IC/US division is for wrestling purists and the heavyweight division is for storylines. Pointing to someone you believe to be an exception doesn't change that accepted wisdom.

Let's flip this: why, as adults who all understand the business by now, do you need your favourites to be in the last match to enjoy a show? What's the difference between watching a great match that's 4th in the card and last on the card? Would you rather see your favourite wrestlers wrestle great matches once a month or every week?

Similarly, Jinder is under contract and they plan on using him. He has to go somewhere on the card. People don't seem to mind that, so why do they mind him being in the last match and having a prop on his shoulders?

Riddle101

leggo wrote: »

You'd swear I was saying something controversial, it's a known thing that since the days of Savage/Steamboat, HBK/Razor etc that the IC/US division is for wrestling purists and the heavyweight division is for storylines. Pointing to someone you believe to be an exception doesn't change that accepted wisdom.

Let's flip this: why, as adults who all understand the business by now, do you need your favourites to be in the last match to enjoy a show? What's the difference between watching a great match that's 4th in the card and last on the card? Would you rather see your favourite wrestlers wrestle great matches once a month or every week?

Similarly, Jinder is under contract and they plan on using him. He has to go somewhere on the card. People don't seem to mind that, so why do they mind him being in the last match and having a prop on his shoulders?

It used to be that the Intercontinental Championship was seen as the workers belt, because some of the best wrestling matches took place when the I.C title was being defended. You already mentioned Savage/Steamboat and HBK/Razor Ramon. There's also Bret Hart Vs Mr Perfect Summerslam 1991 too. So maybe at one point the title was seen as the workers belt. But I don't think it is the case anymore.

The truth is, the I.C and US Championships have been devalued over the years. They're not what they once where, and while I think it's certainly possible for them to go back to the way they were, I don't think Vince McMahon really cares anymore. He has two World Championships now, so that seems to take preference over all the championships.

A Rogue Hobo

leggo wrote:

You'd swear I was saying something controversial, it's a known thing that since the days of Savage/Steamboat, HBK/Razor etc that the IC/US division is for wrestling purists and the heavyweight division is for storylines. Pointing to someone you believe to be an exception doesn't change that accepted wisdom.

Let's flip this: why, as adults who all understand the business by now, do you need your favourites to be in the last match to enjoy a show? What's the difference between watching a great match that's 4th in the card and last on the card? Would you rather see your favourite wrestlers wrestle great matches once a month or every week?

Similarly, Jinder is under contract and they plan on using him. He has to go somewhere on the card. People don't seem to mind that, so why do they mind him being in the last match and having a prop on his shoulders?

I don't think you're saying anything controversial at all. I do think thats how it WAS viewed. Until about the late 90s. I think it's changed a lot since then and I don't think its accepted wisdom anymore. They have tried in the last few years with Cena and Styles to re-establish that format but I dont think anyone sees it as that anymore. Rather they recognise what those individual reigns did for the title rather than the title itself. WWE now more than ever is showcasing it's in ring product over its characters, appealing to the die hard fans. I think it's only logical if youre going to appeal to that side of people's interest that it's only natural that they'd be more excited to see who they view as the best wrestler in the main event.

Bear in mind, I'm actually in agreement with you when it comes to the fans favourite shouldn't be in the main event all the time etc and why shouldn't they do what they want with Mahal (although they could have gone about it 100 times better, anyone who says his matches are anything beyond solid is kidding themselves) but you got to call it as it is too. Times change. Wrestling changes too.

ShagNastii

It is very fair to bring up the prestige linked to (all) the titles.

My point is very much one akin to the fact I really don't like that fact that Jinder and where he is really. He doesn't and shouldn't cut it as WWE champion. That said, I do feel Jinder has a look and talent that could be a credible WWE champion but for me he still hasn't get rid of that 3MB smell.

We've brought up history and it's one I can point to. It's a Roman line I know but the WWE champ should be "the guy". When I think of great champs at that moment at time they really were the dogs b*llocks at the time.

Hogan, Hart, Rock, HHH, Punk, Brock. The WWE champion shouldn't have to be sold to the fans. Face, Heel or Tweener he should be completely top of his game having been built into a true superstar with a few years graft.

leggo

See, while it's interesting to discuss it, in real talk the belts mean whatever they need to at any given time. They are merely a prop, a McGuffin essentially, used by a promoter to sell whatever they need to sell at the time. The same goes for WWE, NJPW, ROH, TNA/GFW, OTT, whoever you want to name (even as far back as the old NWA World Title that gets spoken about in mythical status), I can give you a rundown of how their belts have meant different things at different times, i.e. whatever the booker wanted them to mean. We are the people who give it currency by basically choosing to buy into something and treat it as prestigious or not.

So, when people say stuff like, "X belt has lost its prestige"...well it never really had any. You just bought into it at one stage (maybe when you were younger and more susceptible to accept whatever WWE gave you at face value), or bought into the accepted lore that we're fed from a time before we were watching.

The usage of midcard belts, however, is time-honoured and doesn't change (regardless of people's perception of the prestige of them). The heavyweight belt is built as more prestigious, granted, therefore companies aren't quick to give away big title matches on TV every week. But they still have hours to fill, so having a good hand (i.e. someone us hardcore fans will be more inclined to enjoy) hold that makes total sense, because they can have that guy wrestle every week. That has always, and will always, be the case just based on the structure of a pro-wrestling promotion.

The reason I'm asking these questions is because I'm trying to separate how people are reacting to the product from the actual nuts and bolts facts. In other words: how many of you are angry with Jinder being champion because you feel it's bad business, and how many are angry because we're supposed to be angry?

I guarantee you the case with putting the belt on Jinder was WWE thinking, "We have AJ, KO, Nakamura, Orton etc that can hold up the show for name value, let's give Jinder a run and see if we can make him a star." So if people were to criticise him for not moving ratings or live attendances...well, trust me, WWE know that too and that wasn't the objective in putting it on him. If you were to argue that, once his reign is done, he'll find his long-term niche in the card at the US/IC level (and I'd be inclined to agree), then his title reign will give him strong credibility in that division and he'll be a good fit. Case in point: The Miz, who can now float between the most generic of midcard feuds (rubbing shoulders with Axel and Bo Dallas while elevating Jason Jordan) and also be seen as a credible opponent to John Cena and Roman Reigns when needed too. That's because he's held the belt. People hated that at the time too and said a lot of the same things they said about Jinder, but nobody complains now that we're on the other side of it. Therefore, if you look at it through that lens, it's actually decent business to hotshot guys occasionally and has long-term benefits. Sheamus and Ambrose are two other examples on the current roster. So, when you actually examine WWE's logic in pushing him, you actually can't fault it.

Which leaves people not liking it because they're not supposed to like it. I'm not saying "lolmarks" or anything, I'm just as susceptible to it as anyone. Case in point: Triple H, throughout his entire career (even today). When he was fighting Austin and Rock, he was seen as the guy holding up the big match from happening, who didn't actually deserve to be there. When he was hurt and came back heroically in 2002, we loved him. Then he was handed the belt when we were supposed to hate him again and we cried that he was holding people down. Then he wrestled Cena and started doing "Suck it" out of the blue and we got back in on him, just in time for a DX reunion. Even today, on a Saturday night he can stand in a spotlight and say "We. Are. NXT!" and everyone praises him and can't wait for the day he takes over from Vince and saves the business. Then the next night he wrestles in a big WrestleMania match and we're like "Ugh, Triple H is just putting himself in a big match again...", as if we didn't love him 24 hours beforehand!

Sometimes wrestling works, even on the smartest of us. I'm not saying Jinder is a heel genius, they're just doing a few old school tropes together: giving the belt to someone the fans deem unworthy and, much as we mightn't like to say it (although this is more America-based than here), an evil foreigner speaking a strange language while berating us for not liking him because he's a foreigner...and it works! We hate it because they didn't do all of that for us to like the damn thing!

Blue_Dabadee

I wish we would get more theme songs from Jim Johnston rather than CFO$ guys. Baron Corbin new theme song proves that Jim Johnston is still better than them.

Agent Coulson

Is Dustin Rhodes a deserving future Hall of Famer?

Watching some of his early Goldust stuff he was amazing and I think Vince would put him in as Goldust not Dustin as he did with Razor.

J. Marston

Pretty easily, I'd say.

Longevity, kinda cult status, wrestling royalty with his Dad, handful of title wins. Enough to go on second or third last on a HoF show.

A Rogue Hobo

Definitely deserves it. Probably one of the most memorable gimmicks WWE have ever created. Seems to be only getting better with age too.

LeeJM

Dustin/Goldust is an absolute first ballot hall of famer. I would love to know if he is as creative as Dusty was, like a lot of the original Goldust stuff back in the mid 90s was groundbreaking and seriously controversial. And I would guess that he had a lot of input on that, so I wonder does he have that same spark that Dusty had for seeing the bigger picture and being capable of being a head booker/writer for like NXT or Smackdown?

Angron

Still glad that rumoured boob job for Goldie never happened :pac:

Pentecost

Was thinking about Goldust the other day. Definitely a worthy HOFer. Velveteen Dream in NXT is borrowing a lot of his gimmick.

[Deleted User]

Pentecost wrote: »

Was thinking about Goldust the other day. Definitely a worthy HOFer. Velveteen Dream in NXT is borrowing a lot of his gimmick.

Just watched him v lio rush and was thinking the same thing

briany

I see Billy Corgan has allowed the NWA affiliate agreements to lapse, citing a difference of opinion with the promoters. Looks like he's going the single promotion route.

In one sense, this makes sense, because when you're trying to rebrand and rebuild, associating yourself with some far-flung podunk affiliates who run shows in barns and gymnasiums reflects badly when you're trying to put together a slick well-presented product.

On the other hand, NWA stands for National Wrestling Alliance. It's purpose was as a governing body of different promotions in the USA and around the world. Consolidating into a single federation is to ignore that history, in a sense, and cheapens the NWA claim that theirs is the true world champion of wrestling, being the sport's oldest and far-reaching governing body.

But I wish Corgan all the success in the world. It would be nice to see another promotion break through the glass ceiling instead of succumbing to its own incompetence.

Mr.Nice Guy

I wouldn't rate Goldust as a Hall of Fame talent. I wouldn't even consider him borderline.

I mean if we're talking the WWE Hall of Fame then he could obviously make that, as that is a joke with the likes of Godfather and Koko B. Ware in there.

He was beaten in about 4 minutes by Bray Wyatt a few weeks back and no one in the audience cared. His run with R-Truth was truly painful. The WWE wouldn't even give him that match with Cody at Mania that they were rumoured to be having for years. Some of his Attitude Era stuff with Marlena is utter trash.

The most I enjoyed him was his tag run with Booker circa 02, and I also liked the stuff with the Rhodes family vs The Shield some years back.

diusmr8a504cvk

Don't know why there isn't more hype around Jay Lethal and why he doesn't seem to get booked by more indies in the UK and Ireland (I think he's on an exclusive ROH Contract which means he can take indie bookings only outside of the US?).
Great worker, great mic skills, always thought he'd be snapped up by WWE not that there's not time for that yet obviously.

LeeJM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I wouldn't rate Goldust as a Hall of Fame talent. I wouldn't even consider him borderline.

Dont think I have ever disagreed with anything on this forum as much as I disagree with the above statement.

sky88

Taylor Gray Physician wrote: »

Don't know why there isn't more hype around Jay Lethal and why he doesn't seem to get booked by more indies in the UK and Ireland (I think he's on an exclusive ROH Contract which means he can take indie bookings only outside of the US?).
Great worker, great mic skills, always thought he'd be snapped up by WWE not that there's not time for that yet obviously.

Did he not turn down wwe when he was roh champ and his contract was ending

Angron

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I wouldn't rate Goldust as a Hall of Fame talent. I wouldn't even consider him borderline.

I mean if we're talking the WWE Hall of Fame then he could obviously make that, as that is a joke with the likes of Godfather and Koko B. Ware in there.

He was beaten in about 4 minutes by Bray Wyatt a few weeks back and no one in the audience cared. His run with R-Truth was truly painful. The WWE wouldn't even give him that match with Cody at Mania that they were rumoured to be having for years. Some of his Attitude Era stuff with Marlena is utter trash.

The most I enjoyed him was his tag run with Booker circa 02, and I also liked the stuff with the Rhodes family vs The Shield some years back.

I thought that was particularly weird. Goldie beat Cody one year at the PPV before Wrestlemania (I think it was that one anyway) and Cody attacked him later on backstage. Stage was set to have another match at Wrestlemania, but then suddenly that whole thing was dropped, Cody was put into a ladder match, and I think Goldust only got onto the pre-show.