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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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paulbok

emmetkenny wrote: »

I have those on all my radiators.

I was looking at the Smart Heating as a simpler option to set timers and turn on the heating if we've been out for the day so the house is warm when we get back.

Have a read through the evohome and lightweight rf thread on here, they both have wireless rad controllers that will screw onto your valves. A bit pricey, looking at approx €60 a rad, plus your controller and a hot water kit but bulk deals are available on Amazon.
Might be more control than you want though.

Dr.Winston O'Boogie

Anyone purchased the Netatmo radiator valves? considering getting them, just wanted to know how easy they are to install?

Irish Gunner

Dr.Winston O'Boogie wrote: »

Anyone purchased the Netatmo radiator valves? considering getting them, just wanted to know how easy they are to install?

I purchased 3 not installed yet as valves are manual so first suggestions are to make sure that you have thermostat valves and seems easy to install if you have these.

Not downloaded the app yet. Hopefully plumber will install soon and I can post an update

Dr.Winston O'Boogie

Irish Gunner wrote: »

I purchased 3 not installed yet as valves are manual so first suggestions are to make sure that you have thermostat valves and seems easy to install if you have these.

Not downloaded the app yet. Hopefully plumber will install soon and I can post an update

Cheers, what do you mean by manual valves? I'm thinking ones you have to turn yourself to turn on the radiator?

If so, a plumber can change them so?

Irish Gunner

Dr.Winston O'Boogie wrote: »

Cheers, what do you mean by manual valves? I'm thinking ones you have to turn yourself to turn on the radiator?

If so, a plumber can change them so?

Thermostatic valves are valves with numbers on them and manual don't in simple terms. Before buying check out below

https://check.netatmo.com/en/thermostat/question/wifi

I have manual valves and yes plumber can replace them but I am currently trying to find compatibile valve bodies to work with them.
As only new plumber never seen them before. Also look at the forum for some faq etc

https://forum.netatmo.com/viewforum.php?f=73&sid=3eecdf7f75602b66063be0dc739bf2bd

I'm going to plumber supply store in finglas and bringing valves to see what will fit. No price from plumber yet but I don't expect it to be cheap as may get rads cleaned out in preparation for the winter

deezell

The Tado system can control the boiler/ heating, and hot water using the tado extension box. The Tado thermostat will control the home temperature generally, if you have seperate plumbed zones an additional thermostat can be added to control these, and you can have individual room zone control by using tado TRVs which are visible to the Tado controller and can call the boiler for heat. Existing timers and zone switches can be dispensed with but it's easier to just switch them to heating on constant, retaining the hot water control, and let the tado schedules control the boiler times and heating pump. The app works really well, with variable time blocks, variable temperature per block, selectable geo fencing per block, editable ' away' response (set temperature, frost protection or Smart managed), and so on. It also has the ability to connect to digital controlled boilers as well as just volt free on/off relay, so modulated or variable output boilers are fully controllable. I've just installed the thermostat, my 2 zone controller remains, controlling just the hot water and hands the heating over to the tado by setting it to constant. TRVs can be added later, and it can all be controlled by Amazon echo if you have one.

dball

deezell wrote: »

The Tado system can control the boiler/ heating, and hot water using the tado extension box. The Tado thermostat will control the home temperature generally, if you have seperate plumbed zones an additional thermostat can be added to control these, and you can have individual room zone control by using tado TRVs which are visible to the Tado controller and can call the boiler for heat. Existing timers and zone switches can be dispensed with but it's easier to just switch them to heating on constant, retaining the hot water control, and let the tado schedules control the boiler times and heating pump. The app works really well, with variable time blocks, variable temperature per block, selectable geo fencing per block, editable ' away' response (set temperature, frost protection or Smart managed), and so on. It also has the ability to connect to digital controlled boilers as well as just volt free on/off relay, so modulated or variable output boilers are fully controllable. I've just installed the thermostat, my 2 zone controller remains, controlling just the hot water and hands the heating over to the tado by setting it to constant. TRVs can be added later, and it can all be controlled by Amazon echo if you have one.

Where did you purchase - did you purchase outright or sign up for the monthly scheme?

Thanks

deezell

dball wrote: »

Where did you purchase - did you purchase outright or sign up for the monthly scheme?

Thanks

Purchased. Move quick, there's a few v2 kits left on Amazon or Maplin UK, a steal for £99. You'll need to use parcel motel as they're not delivered to ROI. V2 identical to V3 except for Apple home kit integration.

deezell

Hmm, gone up to £129 on Amazon from Maplin webdeals, £99 from Maplin UK but only available for pickup at store and they have none in Belfast. Maplin Ireland has Used B stock for €119, probably returns. I got 2 while sterling was 91p/€. Still good value at €119 used if you get the full warranty

Colm R

Hi all

I'm wondering if you could help/confirm something for me. I've thinking about getting smarter thermostats for a while now, but want to have the swap out of my existing as easy/hassle free as possible.

I have two of these thermostats in my house controlling two zones:
http://www.myson.co.uk/static_files/my/media/downloads/MRTE_instructions.pdf

Basic enough model, but the main thing about them is they use high voltage, as oppose to the low voltage that stats like Nest use.

I also have a master time clock for each zone, and for the water. This is it:
http://www.ephcontrols.com/product/t37-zone/

I think its pretty obvious what happens, but anyway, for the boiler to fire (and a motorized valve for a zone to open):

1. At least one of the time clock zones must be on.

2. And the thermostat associated to that zone must be calling for heat.

So ultimately I'd like to simply replace the thermostats (probably just one to begin with) myself. But it seems that I cannot get Tado or Nest, as both are low voltage, and my wiring is high voltage.

Its this thread that sent me to Netamo. It seems from my limited electrical knowledge, that Netamo would work fine if I replaced my existing thermostat. I emailed them, and they said it would, but I would like to double check here.

Obviously if I do get it, I'll simply replace the thermostat, but keep the timeclock, and simply switch it to on all the time for the zone associated to that thermostat.

Thoughts?

Any other thermostats to suit my wiring.

And out of interest, what rewiring would be involved if I switched to a low voltage thermostat?

Cheers
-C

deezell

Colm R wrote: »

Hi all

I'm wondering if you could help/confirm something for me. I've thinking about getting smarter thermostats for a while now, but want to have the swap out of my existing as easy/hassle free as possible.

I have two of these thermostats in my house......

1. At least one of the time clock zones must be on.

2. And the thermostat associated to that zone must be calling for heat.

So ultimately I'd like to simply replace the thermostats (probably just one to begin with) myself. But it seems that I cannot get Tado or Nest, as both are low voltage, and my wiring is high voltage.....

Cheers
-C

The Nest stat is low voltage but the control box that comes with it and links to it has relay contacts for switching the high voltage pair serving your current stat. This box would be located next to your timers, switching the two wires currently fed to your stat. The Nest will communicate wirelessly with the box but you can reuse the redundant wires to your old stat to carry the low voltage power and digital control signals from the box to the nest, assuming you want to mount it on the same spot as the old stat. Other wise the nest connects wirelessly and is kept powered by a phone type charger.
The Tado stat has volt free relay contacts, so it is just a straight swap for your existing stat. As the tado stat programmes timers as well as temperature, you just set that zone on your EPH controller to always on, and let the tado timer blocks do the job. The Tado has unlimited time blocks as well as variable temperature per block, plus away from home settings per block. A cinch to install, no control box needed unless you want the tado to control the hot water timing. Better to leave that to the EPH device. Tado starter Kit v2 currently only £79 B stock used from Maplin UK, delivered here using parcel motel. Full new warranty, a steal compared to the price new for a nest or a tado v3 which just has extra Apple home Kit functionality, they're identical otherwise.

Colm R

deezell wrote: »

The Tado stat has volt free relay contacts, so it is just a straight swap for your existing stat.

Thanks for your reply. But just on this, can you explain what you mean by volt free contacts. I already contacted Tado, and they said that its not compatible with my existing wiring.

deezell

Volt free means contacts on a relay isolated from any other electrical part of the stat. The Tado thermostat has these, marked common C and normally open NO. These are used to safely close the circuit to the boiler and pump when calling for heat. There are just these 2 wires to your current stat. Read this generic Tado installation PDF.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.partscenter.co.uk/wcsstore7.00.00.817/ExtendedSitesCatalogAssetStore/images/products/AssetPush/DTP_AssetPushHighRes/std.lang.all/ti/on/Tado_Installation.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwicqc2-p9fWAhXlIMAKHTOrAFcQFgg4MAA&usg=AOvVaw0AFXdvxeJAnj6_ZdpzFhOq

deezell

This is the relevant page

dec2000

deezell wrote: »

This is the relevant page

Hi deezell,

Thanks for putting up the link to tado on Maplin. I wasn't considering it but after reviewing today, am pretty impressed.

Couple of questions though if you know the answer:
- to control the hot water I need the extension kit, am I right in saying this?
- my current timer is 2 channel + hot water. Am I right in saying the extension is only hot water and 1channel? If so, how do I connect the second channel?
- I opened up my thermostats today and they are marked as live and neutral, how goes that map to the COM and NO per the instruction manual?

deezell

dec2000 wrote: »

Hi deezell,

Thanks for putting up the link to tado on Maplin. I wasn't considering it but after reviewing today, am pretty impressed.

Couple of questions though if you know the answer:
- to control the hot water I need the extension kit, am I right in saying this?
- my current timer is 2 channel + hot water. Am I right in saying the extension is only hot water and 1channel? If so, how do I connect the second channel?
- I opened up my thermostats today and they are marked as live and neutral, how goes that map to the COM and NO per the instruction manual?

Last question first, it doesn't matter as you are just breaking the circuit when desired temperature is reached, if your thermostats are exactly the ones you posted first, then the two wires should be going to the terminals on them marked COM and NO. How many wires altogether into each stat? There should just two, with the stat itself powered by battery.

Regarding the zones, you have two options. Youu'll need at least a tado thermostat for each zone, with the hw controlled by the EPH. If you want to get the extension box, you can discard the EPH or leave it there with all 3 zones on permanently. The wiring then is HW circuit through the extension kit with cylinder stat wired in, a bit more involved than just swapping the zone stat. One of the zone's thermostat's circuit will be wired into the extension box, with the tado stat for that zone wirelessly connected to the extension box. The second zone stat is just replaced by an additional tado stat wired in its place. Your shopping list will be one tado thermostat kit ( stat and router bridge), one additional stat, which costs as much as the bargain kits so you could by two kits and use just one bridge. Finally, the extension box if you really must control HW with the tado. The simplest install is just replace one or both stats with tado stats wired in their place, both stats registered to the bridge that comes with the kit, and the EPH controller with two zones set to Permanently on and the HW timed via the EPH. There's no need to be turning on and off the HW remotely, it's on a timer and cylinder stat, which turns it off as and when. Post some pics of your current stat wiring, I'm slightly concerned about your mention of Live and Neutral terminals, it doesn't tie in with the internals of the stat brochure you posted first.

deezell

Just looking at the Myson stat brochure you sent again, the three terminals in the unit have no markings in the photo, but the diagram on the brochure clearly labels them as NO, C , and NC , left to right. If this is your stat then you just wire NO on the old stat, left connector, to NO on the Tado, and C in the middle to Com on the Tado.

dec2000

Hi deezell, just to confirm I'm a different poster to the earlier one Coln_R made. Thanks for the prompt response... Totally get your point on the HW, it's really just a luxury more than anything else if herself decided she wanted a bath later that evening and we were out, could boost it remotely, but not critical, could just start with the thermostat.

On the stats, attached two pictures, first is the wiring, second is the label of the wiring.

deezell

dec2000 wrote: »

Hi deezell, just to confirm I'm a different poster to the earlier one Coln_R made. Thanks for the prompt response... Totally get your point on the HW, it's really just a luxury more than anything else if herself decided she wanted a bath later that evening and we were out, could boost it remotely, but not critical, could just start with the thermostat.

On the stats, attached two pictures, first is the wiring, second is the label of the wiring.

Apologies, I never looked at the name. Your stats are ideal for replacement by the tado, two wires, it doesn't matter which wire goes to which as you're not using the NC terminal on the Tado but for form Live is equal to Com and load goes to NO. Start with a kit and one Tado stat. Keep the timer for HW. There's very little cost or savings in keeping a hot water cylinder hot/cold, unless it's badly insulated. If you only turn it on for baths, how do you keep it hot enough for normal HW. Setting the timer to tiny increments hardly saves you anything. Best setup is a cylinder stat about half to 2/3 down the cylinder set for about 60 -65, proper foam covered cylinder and a generous time allowance early morning an pre evening. The water you heat and don't use will stay hot for well into the next day, reducing the amount of heat required to bring it up to the cylinder stat temperature.

dec2000

deezell wrote: »

Apologies, I never looked at the name. Your stats are ideal for replacement by the tado, two wires, it doesn't matter which wire goes to which as you're not using the NC terminal on the Tado but for form Live is equal to Com and load goes to NO. Start with a kit and one Tado stat. Keep the timer for HW. There's very little cost or savings in keeping a hot water cylinder hot/cold, unless it's badly insulated. If you only turn it on for baths, how do you keep it hot enough for normal HW. Setting the timer to tiny increments hardly saves you anything. Best setup is a cylinder stat about half to 2/3 down the cylinder set for about 60 -65, proper foam covered cylinder and a generous time allowance early morning an pre evening. The water you heat and don't use will stay hot for well into the next day, reducing the amount of heat required to bring it up to the cylinder stat temperature.

Thanks for the advice deezell. We set the hot water on a timer for washing etc. Generally every two days in the morning and boost it if baths are required. Totally get your thinking though.

So last question, if I was to buy the used stock in Maplin does anyone know if there would be any problems linking an account considering it's probably already previously been done or should I drop tado a quick message on it?

deezell

dec2000 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice deezell. We set the hot water on a timer for washing etc. Generally every two days in the morning and boost it if baths are required. Totally get your thinking though.

So last question, if I was to buy the used stock in Maplin does anyone know if there would be any problems linking an account considering it's probably already previously been done or should I drop tado a quick message on it?

I guess once you register the device number to your account it becomes yours. No harm in making an enquiry with the number to hand if you buy a B stock. It might be a return or just shop soiled, id say they've all been reset.

dec2000

Dropped them a note but not heard back as yet - took the chance and ordered 2 of the used stock with Maplin and delivery to Parcel Motel. will report back on how I get on - thanks Deezell for the help.
noticed yesterday, the stat downstairs is not working - checked upstairs and it's perfect so about time ot replace

Colm R

Interested to hear how you get on - waiting until pay day to order!!

deezell

dec2000 wrote: »

Dropped them a note but not heard back as yet - took the chance and ordered 2 of the used stock with Maplin and delivery to Parcel Motel. will report back on how I get on - thanks Deezell for the help.
noticed yesterday, the stat downstairs is not working - checked upstairs and it's perfect so about time ot replace

When you register with Tado and fill in your details, old thermostat type, boiler type, they will generate an installation sheet specifically for you. There may be specific instructions for registering the additional tado stat to the same router bridge, otherwise it is fairly generic. Here's a link to a more detailed general installation manual, get you in the mood.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BztHgAu7cL-QbmIxRUh2SzNOMWM/view?usp=drivesdk

I

matrim

For anyone who has the EPH controls, I'm adding support for it into home-assistant so that some automations can be configured that way. It requires having the internet gateway and after that you have app control and if you link your home-assistant through IFTTT, you can have voice control.

Metric Tensor

Have Home Assistant up and (partially) running. I have an old fashioned three zone time clock on my system, coupled with TRVs where possible. So I'm looking at what might be my best integration option - good to see EPH is an option now too!

deezell

Metric Tensor wrote: »

Have Home Assistant up and (partially) running. I have an old fashioned three zone time clock on my system, coupled with TRVs where possible. So I'm looking at what might be my best integration option - good to see EPH is an option now too!

The EPH smart system, known as EMBER, is available from Heatmerchants for €295 for 3 zones. €246 for 2. I'm not that impressed by the look of the stats tbh, and you will need to pretty much remove your old 3 zone timer and wire in the Ember in its place. Moving the timing function to a smart stat makes for a simple install, 2 wires, and just switch your old zone timer to Permanently on. On the other hand it's good to get rid of ageing devices from the chain, so the EMBER does that.

matrim

deezell wrote: »

The EPH smart system, known as EMBER, is available from Heatmerchants for €295 for 3 zones. €246 for 2. I'm not that impressed by the look of the stats tbh, and you will need to pretty much remove your old 3 zone timer and wire in the Ember in its place. Moving the timing function to a smart stat makes for a simple install, 2 wires, and just switch your old zone timer to Permanently on. On the other hand it's good to get rid of ageing devices from the chain, so the EMBER does that.

Looks wise they are very basic. TBH, I would have preferred to go with something like Tado or Honeywell but the plumber* I had didn't know enough about them to do be comfortable with the install, so I said I'd go with the EPH system.

The one I have looks like your picture, with the main controller, one thermostat for hot water and one for the rest of the house. I also have a WiFi gateway to give access to the system from the app / my home assistant plugin. This WiFi gateway may need to be bought separately.

From a basic controller (with app controls) point of view it works fine but after doing some looking at their API and where the controls come from I wouldn't hold much hope of them keeping up with the other controllers in terms of integrations.

*The couple of other plumbers I talked to didn't know anything about any WiFi controlled heating.

matrim wrote: »

*The couple of other plumbers I talked to didn't know anything about any WiFi controlled heating.

To be honest, they don't need to. They aren't any different to any standard non smart controller, not on the side that gets wired into the boiler. Should be an easy job for any electrician.

deezell

bk wrote: »

To be honest, they don't need to. They aren't any different to any standard non smart controller, not on the side that gets wired into the boiler. Should be an easy job for any electrician.

True, even easier if you are replacing a similar controller which uses the uk standard baseplate, loosen a single screw, remove the old, clip in the new. A diy job. Same should go for the stat. The non plumbing bit is connection to the bridge or hub, just a bit of IT configuration.