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Off Topic Thread 3.0

Zzippy

All things non-rugby related here.

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molloyjh

mfceiling wrote: »

If he's not dead then somebody has played an awful trick on him!!

Apparently he didn't pass away until after the news had come out that he had.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Reading up about the shooting in America. The guy had a bloody arsenal up in the room with him. Over 10 weapons and tripods to stabilise the guns. Everything he had was legal, even the guns he had altered to be fully automatic, the alterations were also completely legal.

Not a hope this will be a wake up call, but jesus it's all kinds of f**ked up. Some of the videos and images surfacing are absolutely horrifying.

It is completely mental. Healthcare is a privilege while this nut had the right to own and modify those weapons the way he did. There is no way he owned that many firearms and modified them the way he did for anything other than offensive reasons. How people in America let this continue is beyond me. That one guy has done more damage to American civilian safety than every single radical Muslim has over the last 15 years. And more than North Korea ever has. Yet still the White House claims that it is not the time to talk about gun control. If not now, then when? And why aren't the vast majority of Americans making this a major political issue?

Buer

Deleted User wrote: »

Reading up about the shooting in America. The guy had a bloody arsenal up in the room with him. Over 10 weapons and tripods to stabilise the guns. Everything he had was legal, even the guns he had altered to be fully automatic, the alterations were also completely legal.

Not a hope this will be a wake up call, but jesus it's all kinds of f**ked up. Some of the videos and images surfacing are absolutely horrifying.

Aside from the obvious horror, it's a bewildering event. The rationale is completely unclear and the profile of the shooter goes against everything that we know of stereotypes of the standard perpetrator. From what we can see, it was not an Islamic terror act, he was not an disaffected youth, he was not a criminal/gang member and he was not from a disadvantaged background.

He was a white, retired, wealthy man who wasn't single and had no previous convictions or dealings with the police aside from the odd traffic violation...who happened to possess enough weaponry to take down a militia.

If there was any incident that could underline how improper the gun laws are in the USA, it was this. I don't think it will have a significant impact, though.

I wonder do sections of American society realise just how similar they are in terms of their unshakeable beliefs to those in nations that are viewed as more traditionally extreme.

[Deleted User]

molloyjh wrote: »

It is completely mental. Healthcare is a privilege while this nut had the right to own and modify those weapons the way he did. There is no way he owned that many firearms and modified them the way he did for anything other than offensive reasons. How people in America let this continue is beyond me. That one guy has done more damage to American civilian safety than every single radical Muslim has over the last 15 years. And more than North Korea ever has. Yet still the White House claims that it is not the time to talk about gun control. If not now, then when? And why aren't the vast majority of Americans making this a major political issue?

Because the left can never be right.

Conservative voters in the US have reached a new level of wanton immaturity over the last 15 years. They appear to be perfectly happy to get dicked over so long as Democrats aren't happy.

Pointed it out before, but when Obama struck Syria after they used chemical attacks he had support of 38% of Democrats and 22% of Republicans.

When Trump did precisely the same thing he had support of 37% of democrats and 88% of republicans.

There is just no helping people that have so much hate and distrust for the 'other side'. There is no discussion anymore, everyone is dug in. Guns are one of the tentpole issues that divides American politics and it's also one of the most lobbied area with money pouring in from interest groups.

If Sandy Hook not only didn't change things but had conservative commentators trying to prove it was a hoax directly to protect their gun ownership rights then you start to appreciate how fukced things are.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

He was a white, retired, wealthy man who wasn't single and had no previous convictions or dealings with the police aside from the odd traffic violation...who happened to possess enough weaponry to take down a militia.

His father was on the FBI's most wanted list. Yer man bought his old house a couple of years ago.

It's quite interesting. I'm really interested to know what happened, I'm sure someone will put together all the pieces at some point and show how a normal, functioning member of society went off the rails. And noone will do anything to change anything, and it'll keep happening.

DGRulz

The NRA lobbying (mostly) Republicans is the main problem here. I saw it posted else where that they'd rather outlaw concerts than guns to prevent this happening again and thats probable true.

Saw a picture this morning of the aftermath just after the event. Bodies just lying amongst all the usual litter on the ground from concerts and the Vegas Skyline in the back. Surreal to say the least.

Also, f**k this guy:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-las-vegas-shooting-live-updates-cbs-fires-executive-for-deeply-1506969657-htmlstory.html

[Deleted User]

irishbucsfan wrote: »

His father was on the FBI's most wanted list. Yer man bought his old house a couple of years ago.

It's quite interesting. I'm really interested to know what happened, I'm sure someone will put together all the pieces at some point and show how a normal, functioning member of society went off the rails. And noone will do anything to change anything, and it'll keep happening.

If you want something interesting and somewhat related the TV show Manhunt: Unibomber is actually a decent watch. It's got a decent cast and is well put together, shows how Ted Kaczynski came to his way of thinking in lighter detail but still enough to give you a picture.

bilston

If Sandy Hook where primary school kids aged 6 and 7 (I mean FFS 6 and 7 year old kids) were shot dead didn't change anything then I don't see what possibly force change there.

[Deleted User]

DGRulz wrote: »

The NRA lobbying (mostly) Republicans is the main problem here. I saw it posted else where that they'd rather outlaw concerts than guns to prevent this happening again and thats probable true.

Saw a picture this morning of the aftermath just after the event. Bodies just lying amongst all the usual litter on the ground from concerts and the Vegas Skyline in the back. Surreal to say the least.

Also, f**k this guy:
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-las-vegas-shooting-live-updates-cbs-fires-executive-for-deeply-1506969657-htmlstory.html

At the same time have a look at fox news this morning.

Front page articles at 7:30 this morning were blaming Hilary for bringing politics into the tragedy by highlighting gun control.

Then more articles about not bringing politics into the discussion and give people time to grieve. Then Hannity on how the Dems love these tragedies as they can push gun control.

They have more content and opinion pieces about not bringing in gun control to the debate, and not a single person saying 'hey, maybe this guy shouldn't have had access to over 30 high calibre assault rifles'.

errlloyd

Deleted User wrote: »

Reading up about the shooting in America. The guy had a bloody arsenal up in the room with him. Over 10 weapons and tripods to stabilise the guns. Everything he had was legal, even the guns he had altered to be fully automatic, the alterations were also completely legal.

Not a hope this will be a wake up call, but jesus it's all kinds of f**ked up. Some of the videos and images surfacing are absolutely horrifying.

Are you sure the modifications were illegal? Fully Automatic weapons have been illegal in the states since 1986.

It doesn't matter of course. Even if they were illegal, he was able to aquire all the training, ammunition, attachments and legal semi automatic guns to make the final step a doddle.

This attack was one of the worst going - but in reality if Sandy Hook didn't change the law this won't. If murdering 4 year olds from point blank range wasn't an effective argument against AR15 Assault Riffles than nothing is.

Bazzo

If this were carried out by an Islam extremist you can bet your ass that Muslim travel bans and extremism would be up for discussion, but because it was a white American male it's suddenly insensitive to talk about preventative measures (gun control). Funny auld country, America.

thomond2006

Rinse and repeat. Nothing will change.

There's too many weapons out there. The horse has bolted.

[Deleted User]

errlloyd wrote: »

but in reality if Sandy Hook didn't change the law this won't. If murdering 4 year olds from point blank range wasn't an effective argument against AR15 Assault Riffles than nothing is.

When you've the likes of Alex Jones (who has the ear of the current president) inciting hatred against the parents in Sandy Hook who lost children and declaring it a hoax you begin to realise just how bad things are.

The President of the United States has regular phone conversations with someone that has made life incredibly difficult for grieving parents all to try and muddy the water against gun control.

Let that sink in.

Zzippy

Republicans: It was this man's absolute right to bear arms and we won't even discuss gun control.

Also Republicans: Healthcare for the victims of this man is a privilege, not a right.

Buer

Just to play devil's advocate, the left in America is rapidly veering towards being equally beligerent and obtuse in their stance. There is definitely an element of the left pouncing on this as a vehicle to soapbox.

The left ideologies are more in line with those most of us have in Europe but that's not to say many aren't as equally blinkered and hostile to any compromise.

I don't think there's any coincidence that the intensifying of the right in recent times has come in conjunction with the rise of the left and liberalism. Each side is now in a situation where they are doubling down on their viewpoints which is leading to what was once a gap between the two sides becoming a chasm.

sydthebeat

kuang1 wrote: »

I'm burying my head in the sand on this one. I haven't and won't be watching a single second of footage from this.
Can't see how my life would be any better for it.

im with you on that.... i havent, nor wont, watch any of it.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

Just to play devil's advocate, the left in America is rapidly veering towards being equally beligerent and obtuse in their stance. There is definitely an element of the left pouncing on this as a vehicle to soapbox.

I don't have the slightest problem whatsoever with progressives using a mass killing as a soapbox. It worked after Dunblayne and it worked after Port Arthur. I have a much bigger problem with gun nuts using it as a shield.

[Deleted User]

errlloyd wrote: »

Are you sure the modifications were illegal? Fully Automatic weapons have been illegal in the states since 1986.

It doesn't matter of course. Even if they were illegal, he was able to aquire all the training, ammunition, attachments and legal semi automatic guns to make the final step a doddle.

This attack was one of the worst going - but in reality if Sandy Hook didn't change the law this won't. If murdering 4 year olds from point blank range wasn't an effective argument against AR15 Assault Riffles than nothing is.

I read a few comments about bump firing on Reddit yesterday. I'd suggest looking that up.

Buer

Nor do I. It's relevant and required. But some are more concerned with attacking the right rather than addressing gun control.

Some people who are making this as a vehicle for criticism of the right/Trump etc. I've seen multiple posts online, for example, criticising Trump's reponse and higlighting the phrase "warmest condolences" (which is odd phrasing, admittedly). It's pointless point scoring.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

Nor do I. It's relevant and required. But some are more concerned with attacking the right rather than addressing gun control.

Some people who are making this as a vehicle for criticism of the right/Trump etc. I've seen multiple posts online, for example, criticising Trump's reponse and higlighting the phrase "warmest condolences" (which is odd phrasing, admittedly). It's pointless point scoring.

I think you're right there. A lot of point scoring. But it's what you're reduced to when there is no platform for the debate. Most Americans have no idea whatsoever about Port Arthur, they genuinely believe that gun control does nothing.

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think you're right there. A lot of point scoring. But it's what you're reduced to when there is no platform for the debate. Most Americans have no idea whatsoever about Port Arthur, they genuinely believe that gun control does nothing.

Completely off topic but the crime podcast, Case File, does a great episode on Port Arthur. Completely horrifying but a very good listen. Solid podcast generally.

http://casefilepodcast.com/case-45-port-arthur/

stephen_n

Seemingly the republicans are trying to get a bill put through to remove the prohibition on silencers and noise suppressers for automatic weapons. This of course is to save the hearing of people firing loud weapons. Unfortunately for them, all these mass shootings keep getting in the way.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

Nor do I. It's relevant and required. But some are more concerned with attacking the right rather than addressing gun control.

Some people who are making this as a vehicle for criticism of the right/Trump etc. I've seen multiple posts online, for example, criticising Trump's reponse and higlighting the phrase "warmest condolences" (which is odd phrasing, admittedly). It's pointless point scoring.

Yeah, there are 2 sides that have been polarising each other for decades now. There isn't really a "good" side and a "bad" side. Just 2 sides who are moving farther apart of willing to listen to each other less. That's a recipe for disaster.

It's like Brexit. Anyone who voted in favour of Brexit is an idiot according to some. But how does saying something like that add anything constructive to....well, anything? It might make the people saying it feel smug and superior, but that's all it accomplishes. Which then only further entrenches the people they are belittling.

Neil3030

Buer wrote: »

I don't think there's any coincidence that the intensifying of the right in recent times has come in conjunction with the rise of the left and liberalism. Each side is now in a situation where they are doubling down on their viewpoints which is leading to what was once a gap between the two sides becoming a chasm.

The intensifying of the right also largely overlapped with the election of Obama. I feel the thought of a minority holding absolute power put the fear of god into them and they've responded accordingly.

The problem begins with the deluded belief that arming citizens is a control check on government and prevents tyranny. You often hear the soundbites, "Every dictator ever had a monopoly on guns" or "how many guns did the Jews have in WW2" - they genuinely think that the second amendment keeps America free, and mass shootings are a small price to pay.

But regardless of whether they actually believe that a citizen malitia could combat modern military technology like drones and space lasers, I feel the obsession with guns is largely due to the compensatory empowerment they afford. Scratch the surface of most republicans and you'll see genuine fear that the world is moving at a speed they can't keep up with, and they are stuck in a country that ultimately won't help them. Many feel that the left will 'win' (Obama was a warning) and that the left will further wipe out the white Christian power hierarchy, or whatever is left of it. Guns give them a deluded assumption that they can stop this happening.

the baby bull elephant

stephen_n wrote: »

Seemingly the republicans are trying to get a bill put through to remove the prohibition on silencers and noise suppressers for automatic weapons. This of course is to save the hearing of people firing loud weapons. Unfortunately for them, all these mass shootings keep getting in the way.

In fairness if you look up guns being fired with silencer you'll see that it doesn't exactly lower it to the movie level thewp.

DGRulz

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

In fairness if you look up guns being fired with silencer you'll see that it doesn't exactly lower it to the movie level thewp.

This, silencer is a terrible name for them. Suppressor is, perhaps, more accurate.

CatFromHue

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think you're right there. A lot of point scoring. But it's what you're reduced to when there is no platform for the debate. Most Americans have no idea whatsoever about Port Arthur, they genuinely believe that gun control does nothing.

In a way they're not wrong about gun control.

If you take the Islamic attacks here in Europe were guns are very differently thought of and where there's huge gun control yet the attacks still happened.

This is in relation to mass mass shootings.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

In a way they're not wrong about gun control.

If you take the Islamic attacks here in Europe were guns are very differently thought of and where there's huge gun control yet the attacks still happened.

This is in relation to mass mass shootings.

No. They're not right about gun control in any way.

There has been 1516 mass shootings in the United States in the past 1735 days.

Don't listen to their nonsense rhetoric about it happening in Europe. The rate with which these things happen is astronomically different. And again, we have Port Arthur to show us that a buyback/ban scheme works.

Neil3030

With ~10,000 gun deaths per year in America, the tragic thing is that since the vegas shooting, more people have probably already died in separate gun-related incidents.

errlloyd

CatFromHue wrote: »

In a way they're not wrong about gun control.

If you take the Islamic attacks here in Europe were guns are very differently thought of and where there's huge gun control yet the attacks still happened.

This is in relation to mass mass shootings.

Yeah Nice, Breivik and The Bataclan still happened - and all ultimately had a higher body count than this attack.

But on the flip side, in the last year there have been at least 4 or 5 attempted attacks where the perpetrators are using knives and kill hardly anyone. Even the Parsons Green tube attack in London was very ineffective. The gun control debate should probably be centred around the hundreds of smaller "mass shooting" incidents that have happened in the US in the last 3 years. They're the truly avoidable deaths.