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Child Item

Inability to learn our native language

justshane

Hi everyone so I recently traveled to Singapore. For anyone that's been they will know they're 3 races that make up the majority of Singaporeans. Chinese, Malays, and Indians. English is everyone's first language in Singapore but each race also learn there native language in the school system and everyone I encountered can speak both fluently.

My question is what are we doing so wrong in Ireland? How come the overwhelming majority of us can't hold a basic conversation in Irish? We spend the guts of 14 years learning it. My intial thoughts are it is just the method and process of the teaching but that's founded on nothing!

Curious on people's thoughts.

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super_furry

Schools should be teaching kids how to speak it, not boring them to death with essays and poetry and grammar.

The whole way it's thought is wrong. I can't speak more than a couple of basic words but could still recite that awful A Mhairin de Barra poem from start to finish, despite not having a notion what it means.

FizzleSticks

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super_furry

FizzleSticks wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Good point actually. I had a couple of really good teachers in school – Geography and English – that really helped to get students interested and invested in the subject but any Irish teacher seemed like they were either disinterest or lost their passion a long time ago.

Billy86

sugarman wrote: »

It's bet into us to memorize pages upon pages, of year upon year of utter scutter stories, poems and other ****e rather than actually learn any of the language itself.

I think the most useful part of it came during the leaving cert when you'd to do the oral exam.. but by then it 14 years too late!

This is pretty much it, I didn't even do it for the LC but regret that choice a little now. The 1950s style which it is taught in and all the badly dated texts etc really is brutal and sucks any joy or interest out of what otherwise could be an interesting subject. I have a few friends who are fluent and others who can at least half hold a conversation, but none of them had much interest at all for it in school either (even if they were semi-fluent in it at the time).

miece16

i've done 2 lessons of spanish at 2 hours each, so 4 hours of spanish lessons.

I can string a sentence together in spanish easier than irish

tara73

I think this subject is a mixture of different factors.
as a non irish, I tried to learn irish in different evening courses. so not in school, starting as an adult being really motivated.

for me, the main obstacle were the teachers. in all courses really weird guys who treated us like children (I havn't even been treated like that in school). and they were also not good in teaching, you didn't had a clue about pronouncation or grammar at the end of the courses. it were just learning random words or phrases.

adding to this the language is really, really difficult in itself to learn, it's the opposite of learning english or even french is like a walk in a park in comparison to irish. which is nobodys fault, it's just a point which adds to the fact so little people speak it fluently.

but whenever I spoke with irish people about their native language ( and for me, it is the native language of the irish), and why so little people speak it and don't learn it after 13 or 14 years being taught in school, they all unisono gave as the main reason because it's being taught so badly. Literally they said: it's been beaten into us. that's so sad and this should be changed. if you motivate children the right way, having fun learning it and being eager to learn it, it would change a lot.

Irish is a really beautiful and fascinating language. It's a pity it's taught so badly and so little people have a good connection to it because of the bad memories from school time.

Samaris

The pronunciation is awkward, tara. It's funny though, from my own experience again, I can pronounce just about any Irish word you put in front of me; something about how it's meant to sound has sunk in. I just won't have the blindest notion what it means and I probably wouldn't be able to spell it.

kingchess

LordSutch wrote: »

But is it "our" native language?

I doubt it was never the native language of my family on either side, this, even though we've been living on this island for hundreds of years....

What does this sentence mean? are you saying it was at some point the native language of your family?--I am not trying to be narky just curious .

Hector Savage

Practicality is key, it's a useless language in reality.
People know this and just kills their motivation.
Reminds me of this :

https://youtu.be/4zPHAhj_Cio?t=161

Agricola

Going to sound awful clichéd, but they have to make Irish cool/interesting/contemporary.

I did French in school for the same 5 years and it never felt like the absolute chore learning Irish did.

never_mind

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

I really do believe it's the way it's taught. If it was left up to me to change it (but it won't be so no worries there), I'd have conversation and spoken Irish prioritised in primary schools, with basic writing and reading in the last maybe 3 years. The Junior Cert cycle would then focus more on writing and reading. I'd make it optional for Leaving Cert but assign extra points to it, similar to maths. I'd keep poems and dreary literature out of it, keeping it relevant with very little comprehension other than a few basic questions.

I don't really think being "forced" to learn it is the issue, but that idea is very much ingrained into people that it becomes the issue for them, hence the optional LC. The way it's taught is awful though. I didn't learn that Irish has masculine and feminine words similar to French until a few weeks before my Leaving Cert. The subject also focuses on too much too soon. Leaving Cert Honours requires similar comprehension skills to English (or did anyway, unsure how they changed it a few years ago).

Basically, I would have the subject taught similar to how we learn English, only extended as we aren't exposed to it as much as English outside the classroom. By Junior Cert, kids should be able to speak with fluency, and have a decent standard of reading and writing that would get them by. By Leaving Cert, they should be able to speak, read and write with fluency.

I'd love to fluent in Irish. It's always been my intention to go and learn it properly.

To be honest, a lot of its issue relates directly with the colleges accepted in poor standards at primary level. I blame Initial Teacher Education completely and not the curriculum or 'how it's taught'. Student teachers are given very modern tools to teach Irish but their level on entry is low and leaving it's just as bad... most primary school classrooms now just press play on their white board and hope for the best.

whisky_galore

Agricola wrote: »

Going to sound awful clichéd, but they have to make Irish cool/interesting/contemporary.

I did French in school for the same 5 years and it never felt like the absolute chore learning Irish did.

You can sex it up all you want, but if you don't use it daily or have a need to use it...well then...

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

How come honours Irish students still have to learn chunks of Irish off by heart? I've been trying to teach Irish through the spoken word. I think there is something peculiar to the English language that prevents us from becoming fluent in Irish which is not there with say, French.

Hector Bellend

The only thing we're doing wrong is keeping a dead language alive by artificial means.

super_furry

Agricola wrote: »

Going to sound awful clichéd, but they have to make Irish cool/interesting/contemporary.

I did French in school for the same 5 years and it never felt like the absolute chore learning Irish did.

Caipin droim ar ais?

Roger_007

I know a few people who use Irish as their preferred language. Most of them also seem to have detestation for all things British.
Maybe that is the problem? Irish, for many people, seems to be used as an anti-British thing rather than just a language that they want to use for its own sake.

The Backwards Man

kingchess wrote: »

What does this sentence mean? are you saying it was at some point the native language of your family?--I am not trying to be narky just curious .

He's trying to say Prods don't speak Irish or some such nonsense.

In our part of Donegal, the kids from the Protestant national schools put the rest of us to shame when it came to proficiency in Irish.

tara73

Roger_007 wrote: »

I know a few people who use Irish as their preferred language. Most of them also seem to have detestation for all things British.
Maybe that is the problem? Irish, for many people, seems to be used as an anti-British thing rather than just a language that they want to use for its own sake.

I think this is very true. It's exactly what I experienced when doing the irish courses. I was very interested in the language and in learning it, but I got told 'it's not only a language, it's much more to it'...and was expected to tune in to some nationalistic sentiment. there was a really strong nationalistic urge with the teachers and always anti british comments. I found that really demotivating, I wasn't interested in being part of some patriotic, nationalistic movement and I found it very outdated.

I lived for a long time in Ireland and in day to day contact with the irish people I was always fascinated how easy going they are with the british history and almost everybody said: that's in the past, we don't want to hold a grudge and get on with the british now. And they didn't only said that, they meant it and practised it.

But the people supporting the irish language were, as said, different. Not likeable.

Samaris

sk3prnfg6ywoqc wrote: »

How come honours Irish students still have to learn chunks of Irish off by heart? I've been trying to teach Irish through the spoken word. I think there is something peculiar to the English language that prevents us from becoming fluent in Irish which is not there with say, French.

I doubt it, tbh. Irish would be a -bit- more difficult, as much of English is based on French (particularly the vocabulary), which links in to Romance languages in general, and also based on German in structure, which links on to the other Germanic languages. So there is an issue with structure and vocab being unalike, which is more difficult to an English-speaker than, say, French, but millions of people on the planet speak a second language fluently that is completely unlike their first - English is usually the second one! Chinese and English for example, or fluent English-speakers from Asian countries in general. Various African countries where the people will speak a big regional language (i.e. Swahili), but also one or more local languages which may have a completely different structure and set of sounds.

I don't think the problem is Irish as a language - it is actually pretty logical and straight-forward (although we're not used to the grammatical structure so it's not intuitive to us as "native" English-speakers). I think the problem lies somewhere between

- starting to learn a second language too late*
- Lack of practice and opportunity to use it usefully
- Poor teaching practice in terms of how Irish is communicated - and a rather confused notion of why we're learning it anyway.
- Rebellion against hours of schooltime learning off reams of stuff by heart rather than by understanding it.

One basic thing that could modify that "learn by memorising and regurgitating" is at least providing students with the knowledge of the language to -paraphrase- it and then have them do so. Paraphrasing a story, you need to -know- the story and you can't get away with phonetic babble, which is precisely how I got away with Irish exams throughout because that is what I was shown to do.

*It's notable that we do have portions of the country that -are- Irish speaking (and can speak English as well) - I live in one! The language is alive when you know where to look for it, but I also gotta say that Irish-speaking locals tend to be very reserved about speaking Irish to outsiders. Having standard Irish is certainly enough to mark you out and quite often, you will be responded to in English. Not quite sure where that's come from, but there may be an element of the living language being disparaged and/or punished in school compared to the frozen, artificial language we actually learn. A friend of mine grew up a native speaker and commented that children going to school outside the Gaeltacht would quite often be penalised in exams for using their native, correct, Irish, because it had evolved away from the Standard (or rather, the Standard imposed did not take the language into account in how it's spoken and used by those who actually speak and use it). Locals here have commented that understanding the RTE readers was difficult before the broadcaster started introducing readers from different regions to give the news in the local dialect rather than sticking to standard.

LordSutch

kingchess wrote: »

What does this sentence mean? are you saying it was at some point the native language of your family?--I am not trying to be narky just curious .

No I'm say Irish probably wasn't (my family's) native language when they arrived here many generations/centuries ago ....

Sleepy

It's less an inability to learn it than a mixture of an inability to teach it, a widespread lack of interest in the language and a large dollop of resentment at having it forced upon you.

Personally, there were loads of subjects I'd loved to have learned in secondary school that I couldn't take on due to limitations of my school's timetabling and slightly higher preferences for other subjects. I'd love to have studied Woodwork, Tech Drawing, Metalwork, German, Spanish, Latin, Classics etc. in addition to French, Geography, History, Business Studies etc.

Having to forego the opportunity to study things you're interested in, in part due to the State's insistence that you learn something of no real use and that you have no interest in is always going to foster resentment for that subject. The same was true of Religion, and I suspect that for many, if to a lesser extent, it would be true of Maths (which, while it has many practical applications, is of low interest to many).

JollyBustard

It's definitely how it's taught, and the lack of immersion, for want of a better term.

Up til Junior Cert I had no interest or competency with the language. Went to Gaeltacht after TY for the first time and by the time I got around to LC (only twice going to Gaeltacht) I was quite capable - particularly with conversational Irish to manage better than a pass grade in honors. (Had been contemplating dropping prior to the Gaeltacht). I could still get away with a very basic conversation these many years after school, having not dealt with it since.

If the Gaeltacht was stressed much more (and not one of the p*ss-taking ones where people just speak English most of the time) and at a younger age then I would imagine the proficiency in everyday use would be much higher. An idea might be a family style resort in Irish, catering for all levels in both childer and adult.

All that aside however, it's just not a helpful language to have, so despite the fact that I love we have our own language, and that I'm passable at it (ask any American and they'll tell you I'm fluent in 'Gaelic'), I would much rather have learned other European languages for job prospects and the like. There's no practical use of Irish, though it's terrible to think it's going away.

'Tír gan Teanga, Tír gan Anam' and all that.

astrofool

In Singapore, some (significant minority of) people will only speak the one language, thus there is much utility to be had in learning and being able to converse in all the languages, similarly, I know a lot of Americans who have learnt Spanish just to communicate better with people they work with, or work for them.

For Irish, the group of all people who speak Irish is a subset of people who speak English, there is no extra utility earned from also knowing Irish, and if they do, the communication will often be sub-par vs. just speaking in English in the first place (especially if talking about modern subjects, where Irish hasn't got a word yet), thus people don't bother.

In saying that, Welsh is a growing language in a similar situation, with the big difference that they don't force it upon people who don't want to learn it.

A Little Pony

Irish people are ingrained into British culture, British food, British sports, British music, British films and with that the English language. What is the shock here? It's been the case for centuries of Irish people speaking English. Irish is not ever going to come back.

Get used to it, learn Irish if you want but this folly of expecting to get millions of Irish people speaking Irish is just that, a folly. Something like 79 thousand people speak Irish daily out of a country up to 4 million. It's irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and is the epitome of a hobby. Most people aren't arsed, never will be arsed. Deal with it.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

There is no incentive to learn Irish, so people don't bother. This is hardly unique to Ireland, minority languages have vanished all around the globe. Many of those that are in a stronger position, like Welsh, benefited from relative economic prosperity in the areas where the language was spoken.

Agricola

Ta madra rua i mo chonai ar ais go dti an siopa bheag!

TBH, I think we should keep it going in school, just so we all have enough to talk incomprehensible nonsense amongst ourselves, while abroad, in an effort to impress foreigners. And isn't impressing foreigners THE most Irish of hobbies anyway.

c_man

I wish I could speak it and really lament wasting the hours of it in school. Sure it was taught badly but I think the bigger issue was the attitude I had towards it. I've give younger me a hiding if I could.

A Little Pony

Shenshen wrote: »

I don't know how it's being taught as I'm not from Ireland.
But my observation would be that as long as nobody WANTS to speak it, it will keep dying. And if people wanted to speak it, there's nothing stopping them.

So the real question is actually why people have no interest in speaking the language among themselves, with friends and family. If you want Irish to become a living language again, that's where you need to start your efforts. Not in school.

And I feel that a language that is not being spoken by the vast, vast majority of a given population can hardly be said to be their native language.

It's got nothing to do with how it's taught. It's not a part of daily life for the vast majority of people, that is why. Why would people go through the trouble to learn Irish and make it the language they use on a daily basis when English is one of the most used languages in the world?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Incidentally, people who complain about English words being used in Irish clearly haven't heard most other languages in the world today. Koreans continually talk about their 'hand phone' and 'computah', while Latin Americans talk about 'realities' on tv and having a 'baby shower'. The French take it to ridiculous extents when they talk about 'le weekend'.

whisky_galore

JollyBustard wrote: »

'Tír gan Teanga, Tír gan Anam' and all that.

This line is almost inevitably trotted out.

Does this mean that countries like Cuba, Mexico, the States, Canada, etc etc don't have a 'soul' because the 1st languages are either extinct or spoken by a tiny minority?