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Stallions

UrbanSea

Can anyone seriously compete with Coolmore? Who are yer favourite stallions?

Galileo has owned the big races world wide this year. Europe,S.Africa and a dual grade 1 success last week in the States,who can even get near half of Coolmore's stallions.

I'd rate them
1.Galileo
2.Montjeu
3.Danehill Dancer

Holy Roman Emperor has really impressed me and you can bet his stud fee will be more than 10 grand next year. Even Strategic Prince is a first year sire who banged out a group 1 winner at a fee of 5,000.

Teofilo has really caught my eye aswell this year.

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tryfix

Now that the War is over between Darley and Coolmore, which Darley Stallion could Coolmore purchase stock by to reciprocate the Sheikh's gesture?

Peintre Celebre

tryfix wrote: »

Now that the War is over between Darley and Coolmore, which Darley Stallion could Coolmore purchase stock by to reciprocate the Sheikh's gesture?

Bar the obvious one, could see them maybe getting the odd Exceed and Excel but would want to push its own son Excelebration moreso. Wouldn't be surprised to see one or two Shamardals

Definitely Bernardini and Medaglia Doro across the Atlantic pretty sure they have one or two already ( could be wrong )

tryfix

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Bar the obvious one, could see them maybe getting the odd Exceed and Excel but would want to push its own son Excelebration moreso. Wouldn't be surprised to see one or two Shamardals

Definitely Bernardini and Medaglia Doro across the Atlantic pretty sure they have one or two already ( could be wrong )

Shamardal was the first to leap out at me too bar Dubawi, but from now on he's only going to be covering a limited book of mares privately for the Sheikhs.

It's a pity because he would bring back in Giants Causeway to Coolmore and that'd be commercial. They already have Giants Causeway through his full sister the dam of Gleneagles and many more.

Exceed And Excel would be very handy, they are commercial but cheap enough to buy so a pricey yearling by him would probably be an outstanding prospect. Also they could do with a real out and out sprinter stallion. Don't think the likes of Bernardini and Medlaglia Doro translate too well into European racing.

Authorized Belardo Bow Creek Brazen Beau Buratino Casamento Charming Thought Dawn Approach Dubawi Epaulette Exceed And Excel Exosphere Farhh Fast Company French Navy Fulbright Golden Horn Hallowed Crown Helmet Hunter’s Light Iffraaj Manduro Masterstroke New Approach Night Of Thunder Outstrip Poet’s Voice Postponed Raven’s Pass Rio de la Plata Sepoy Shamardal Sidestep Slade Power Slickly Teofilo Territories The Last Lion.

There's not a lot in Darley Europe's arsenal that you'd be chasing too hard. Sepoy would be worth a crack.

I don't really think that Dubawi is the super sire that he appears to be, his winners to runners ratio is brilliant but even his best winners tend to have their limitations when faced with the classics etc. They'd pay very well for any standout foal of his and it'd be hard work getting a top stallion's racing career out of one of then. He'd be a really nice stallion for Coolmore to send mares to, they could do a Deep Impact type experiment with him.

Peintre Celebre

No I meant them to be kept to America. Nyquist could be a good one for Godolphin his sire Uncle Mo exceeded all expectations as a freshman sire looks a future champion. Could be a good investment for Godolphin. No others over here would really stand out, maybe the odd New Approach might fetch big bucks

Lt Dan

Inion An Ri wrote: »

Galileo has at least 135 foals registered and covered 178 mares this year (best book yet), with Coolmore and their associates owning at least 80% of them, so time is on their side still

I am a bit thick on this, someone brilliantly explained this before.

Galileo is now a private fee, safe to say if someone like Juddmonte or Godolphin, the few that can still afford to send their mares to him AND race in their colours , without any shares in that progeny , the fee would be well past 300,000. Just delivering 10 live foals is 3 million, not bad for may 1 weeks work. He is banging 178. Granted, some of them will be from mares that Coolmore either bred or bought themselves and races or broodmares that they spent a pretty half million and more (remember the 2013 Oaks winner, 6 million)

Obviously, they want access to the best broodmares or potentially good broodmares (Ouija Board had done little before and after Australia and does not appear to be the most fertile)

So, I think it was explained that they let the breeders know that they want to buy the progeny, it does not seem to be done by private sales like what we saw with say Faugheen in NH scene. It was explained that Magnier would have great links with independent studs who hold some of the lovely broadmares.

So, they get about 300,000+ for a visit from a breeders Mare to Galileo. On comes the sales. Breeder probably will make a tidy profit (presumably) and Coolmore will likely pay anything from 450,000 (eg Highland Reel, what a bargain) to over a million (Australia) to completely silly money.Sure, they stud fee covers a lot of the fee at the sales

But not every half million + does much on the track . I know that they made well over 20 million euro in world wide prize money last year but that won't solve all the big bills. Not all of them will make it to their stud and the ones that they sell off to Oz or Hong Kong or to JP McManus are hardly going to cover any losses that they made?

How do they do it? They are obviously making money, it surely can't be some love of the game and "ah sure, with the money we make on Galileo each year , we can absorb and losses".

Peintre Celebre

Lt Dan wrote: »

I am a bit thick on this, someone brilliantly explained this before.

Galileo is now a private fee, safe to say if someone like Juddmonte or Godolphin, the few that can still afford to send their mares to him AND race in their colours , without any shares in that progeny , the fee would be well past 300,000. Just delivering 10 live foals is 3 million, not bad for may 1 weeks work. He is banging 178. Granted, some of them will be from mares that Coolmore either bred or bought themselves and races or broodmares that they spent a pretty half million and more (remember the 2013 Oaks winner, 6 million)

Obviously, they want access to the best broodmares or potentially good broodmares (Ouija Board had done little before and after Australia and does not appear to be the most fertile)

So, I think it was explained that they let the breeders know that they want to buy the progeny, it does not seem to be done by private sales like what we saw with say Faugheen in NH scene. It was explained that Magnier would have great links with independent studs who hold some of the lovely broadmares.

So, they get about 300,000+ for a visit from a breeders Mare to Galileo. On comes the sales. Breeder probably will make a tidy profit (presumably) and Coolmore will likely pay anything from 450,000 (eg Highland Reel, what a bargain) to over a million (Australia) to completely silly money.Sure, they stud fee covers a lot of the fee at the sales

But not every half million + does much on the track . I know that they made well over 20 million euro in world wide prize money last year but that won't solve all the big bills. Not all of them will make it to their stud and the ones that they sell off to Oz or Hong Kong or to JP McManus are hardly going to cover any losses that they made?

How do they do it? They are obviously making money, it surely can't be some love of the game and "ah sure, with the money we make on Galileo each year , we can absorb and losses".

You're a tough man to please. Her Dubawi son Frontiersman was second to Highland Reel in the Coronation Cup and is rated a very good 117. Her Kingmambo first foal is a gr.3 and Listed winner and her Monsun is a multiple winner. Better than the vast majority of broodmares

paddyisreal

Coolmore have bought a good few darley sires in the last few years i thought . Definetly a dubawi , street cry and a bernardini so was the fued only one way ?

tryfix

A new pair of Gp 1 Winners today for Galileo, as well IIRC as having his first ever 6f GP1 winner in Clemmie at Newmarket, he was also on the mark with the former Ballydoyle inmate Foundry finally coming good at 7 years of age to take a 1m 4f GP1 in Australia.

That's 11 individual GP1 winners so far this season for Galileo, with 10 last year. Those are huge figures, many a classy stallion would be lucky to have that many over their lifetimes.

WickIow Brave

Great for Galileo to get a G1 over 6f. What a sire. Also a G1 for the War Front x Galileo cross. Tomorrow Galileo can further cement himself as a sire of sires with Masar and Enable favs. If they're beat it will probably be by his own progeny.

tryfix

WickIow Brave wrote: »

Great for Galileo to get a G1 over 6f. What a sire. Also a G1 for the War Front x Galileo cross. Tomorrow Galileo can further cement himself as a sire of sires with Masar and Enable favs. If they're beat it will probably be by his own progeny.

I've been watching some of his broodmares and how the mix comes out.

US Navy Flag was just following in the footsteps of his GP1 winning full sister Roly Poly who lost out in a photo finish to Brave Anna in last year's Cheveley Park stakes. The second Fleet Review was also the result of a War Front x Galileo mare.

As a Broodmare sire he doesn't seem to be overloading the grandkids with stamina.

These Warfront x Galileo crosses will make very saleable stallion prospects and the growing band of blue-hen broodmares that Coolmore are developing will pass on the kind of pedigree boosts to their foals that turn good horses into exceptional breeding prospects.

tryfix

Whirling Dervish scoring by 6L for Camelot and Jessie Harrington in the opener at Tipperary, but in a time 22.4 seconds above standard over 1m 1f.

Now that's what I call a Heavy ground win, and I was hoping that maybe it was the soft ground that was holding the Camelots that had been disappointing at the end of their races this Autumn.

There's no rhyme or reason to the Camelots so far..

paddyisreal

Dubawis sired another 2 group 1 winners including one on dirt in the states. No galileo but some going all the same .

tryfix

A very poor day for the French breeding industry today. 6 GP1 races today and all won by English or Irish trained horse. In fact no French stallion had a horse even placed in the first three in the entire 6 race card.

Oh and Rhododendron becomes Galileo's 12th individual GP1 winner this year.

WickIow Brave

Yeah was great for Rhododendron to get a Grp 1 this year after a bit of a disaster of a season. You could argue she's a better filly than Winter.

First four home in the Arc today descended from Urban Sea aswell.

tryfix

WickIow Brave wrote: »

Yeah was great for Rhododendron to get a Grp 1 this year after a bit of a disaster of a season. You could argue she's a better filly than Winter.

First four home in the Arc today descended from Urban Sea aswell.

Rhododendron might currently be a better filly than Winter, but Winter was a monster in the Summer.

Rhododendron wasn't very impressive today with the likes of Lady Frankel only a head and neck behind in 3rd today. I thought she'd have her work cut out on the Soft Ground ( needs firm) that some Jockeys were calling heavy, but the times today were only a tiny bit over standard, so wtf was all the talk about Heavy ground?

If the ground was that okay, then Highland Reel was badly missed from the lineup.

I actually thought the ground must have been heavy when Rhododendron's sister Magical came unstuck in the first. That lady will be looking for a GP1 win next year and will surely pop up as an outsider winner of O'Brien's in some big race.

WickIow Brave

Rhododendron was travelling all over Enable in the Oaks and met traffic in the Guineas, could have matched what Winter did in the summer imo.

Puzzling ride on Magical today. Ridden from the front in the Debutante and Moyglare, why did they change tactics? Agree she'll win a Grp 1 next season as a 2nd or 3rd string.

diomed

I seldom buy the Racing Post but bought it on Saturday and Sunday.
On page 33 of the Sunday paper there is an interesting (to me) chart called Today's Flat Sires.
"Every sire represented in a Flat race in GB and Ireland today and their wins, wins percentage and average winning RPR for 2yo & 3yo in past 365 days, plus the average RPR achieved by their winners."

From the chart
Frankel has 18 2yo wins (28%), avg RPR 90.5
Frankel has 34 3yo wins (20%), avg RPR 91.9
Frankel all average winning RPR 91.4

There are a few problems:
(1) it is the average RPR of a sire's winners, ...wins percentage... is that the wins to runs ratio?
(2) if a sire has runners older than 3yo they give the "all average" but you can not know the number of runners or the average of the 4yo+ runners, and in some cases that could be the majority.
(3) no idea of the number of runners by each sire.
(4) no idea of the RPR of all runners by a sire (winners and losers)

(as Frankel only has 2yo and 3yo the "all average is 18x90.5 + 34x91.9 = 4753.6. Divide that 4753.6 by 18+34=52 and you get the 91.4 "all average".)

The chart on page 33 of the Sunday RP shows 97 sires and their winning runner RPR averages.

Sample "All Average":
Arcano 80.4
Canford Cliffs 79.4
Cape Cross 84.5
Dandy Man 77.2
Dark Angel 85.0
Dream Ahead 83.4
Dubawi 92.3
Equiano 81.5
Exceed And Excel 82.8
Fast Company 80.0
Frankel 91.4
Galileo 97.3
Henrythenavigator 76.1
High Chaparral 87.0
Lope De Vega 86.5
Nathaniel 90.7
Oasis Dream 83.0
Pastoral Pursuits 77.1
Pivotal 85.6
Sir Percy 76.8
Teofilo 86.0

Today's Flat Sires is a nice chart.
It would be great to see numbers for all sires, and also how many of a sire's runners contributed to his wins, and how many did not win.

At the time the chart was printed Nathaniel had 39 3yo wins for 17% win percentage, average RPR 91.5.
But Enable (by Nathaniel) had 5 wins from 6 (83%) runs as a 3yo and an average RPR of 121/122 for those 5 wins which boosted Nathaniel's figures.

tryfix

Heffernan said:- "I liked him at the Curragh and the two that beat him the last day are above average. He stays well.

"We have plenty of Camelots and I'd say there is still more to come from them. They are not as early as what you would like.

http://www.irishracing.com/news?headline=Third-time-lucky-for-well-backed-Knight&prid=186202

Camelot had a double today, he's been up and down with his 2yos, so much so that like Nathaniel in his first year the omens weren't good.

Given Seamie Heffernan's comments about the Ballydoyle Camelots, I'd be expecting him to have a few GP1 class 3yos next season as his rather expensive stock mature.

The markets seem to be keeping faith with Camelot, so they're seeing something more in him than the somewhat disappointing track performances we've seen so far from his 2yos.

Mgoraf

How many group winners has acclamation had over a mile? Just having a quick look through his top rated progeny and doesn't look like any to my eye. Certainly no group 1 winners ??

diomed

Camelot has sired a Group 2 winner.
Fighting Irish, in the Criterium de Maisons-Laffitte (Group 2) (2yo) (Turf) 6f
Three runners. He won by a head.
It was his 6th race in 2017.

tryfix

Mgoraf wrote: »

How many group winners has acclamation had over a mile? Just having a quick look through his top rated progeny and doesn't look like any to my eye. Certainly no group 1 winners ??

That's a great point, especially re Expert Eye's 2,000 Guineas chances.

I came across a son of his called Johnny Barnes trained by John Gosden who won a Gp3 over a mile at Deauville.

I've been looking for an edge to find something to take on the odds on Expert Eye in the Dewhurst, but it's very hard to knock holes in Expert Eye's form. Would be quite interested in the two O'Brien horses from the Middle - Park but that race is a poor guide for the Dewhurst.

tryfix

diomed wrote: »

Camelot has sired a Group 2 winner.
Fighting Irish, in the Criterium de Maisons-Laffitte (Group 2) (2yo) (Turf) 6f
Three runners. He won by a head.
It was his 6th race in 2017.

Saw him in the field this morning and thought it would be interesting to see if the stoutly bred Camelot could supply a group winner over such a short trip. Have to say that I find that more of a hindrance than a help in understanding what Camelots 's future is about as a sire. It appears that he's more of a Pour Moi than an Authorised/Motivator type.

It's frustrating to have these types, that can pruduce something that you're not aiming for in the mating.would be interested to know what others think of the Camelots as physical specimens, they look so well to the eye (, not at all typical of Montjeu himself).

Mgoraf

tryfix wrote: »

That's a great point, especially re Expert Eye's 2,000 Guineas chances.

I came across a son of his called Johnny Barnes trained by John Gosden who won a Gp3 over a mile at Deauville.

I've been looking for an edge to find something to take on the odds on Expert Eye in the Dewhurst, but it's very hard to knock holes in Expert Eye's form. Would be quite interested in the two O'Brien horses from the Middle - Park but that race is a poor guide for the Dewhurst.

Yeah I think he will have enough to win this poor 7f race tomorrow.

I will admit I was blown away by his last win but when you take a step back and look at his sire and his trainer I become less enthusiastic. Found it interesting stoute said he is very precocious yet he has only run twice this season.

Anyway we'll see what he does tomorrow

diomed

Mgoraf wrote: »

How many group winners has acclamation had over a mile? Just having a quick look through his top rated progeny and doesn't look like any to my eye. Certainly no group 1 winners ??

This is up to the end of 2015.

Year Race Course Name Dob Sex Age Years Grade Mile Fur Yard Metres
2007 Middle Park Stakes Newmarket Dark Angel (10) 2005 M 2 2Yo Group 1 6
2007 Mill Reef Stakes Newbury Dark Angel (10) 2005 M 2 2Yo Group 2 6 8
2008 King'S Stand Stakes Ascot Equiano 2005 M 3 3Yo+ Group 2 5
2010 Abernant Stakes Newmarket Equiano 2005 M 5 3Yo+ Group 3 6
2010 King'S Stand Stakes Ascot Equiano 2005 M 5 3Yo+ Group 2 5
2010 Palace House Stakes Newmarket Equiano 2005 M 5 3Yo+ Group 3 5
2011 Cornwallis Stakes Ascot Ponty Acclaim 2009 F 2 2Yo Group 3 5
2011 Oh So Sharp Stakes Newmarket Alsindi 2009 F 2 2Yo Group 3 7
2011 Princess Margaret Stakes Ascot Angels Will Fall 2009 F 2 2Yo Group 3 6
2011 Richmond Stakes Goodwood Harbour Watch 2009 M 2 2Yo Group 2 6
2011 Solario Stakes Sandown Talwar 2009 M 2 2Yo Group 3 7
2011 Greenlands Stakes The Curragh Hitchens 2005 M 6 3Yo+ Group 3 6
2011 Railway Stakes The Curragh Lilbourne Lad 2009 M 2 2Yo Group 2 6 63
2013 Richmond Stakes Goodwood Saayerr 2011 M 2 2Yo Group 2 6
2013 Greenlands Stakes The Curragh Hitchens 2005 M 8 3Yo+ Group 3 6
2015 Prix La Rochette Longchamp Attendu 2013 M 0 2Yo Group 3 1400
2015 Prix Quincey Deauville Johnny Barnes 2012 M 3 3Yo+ Group 3 1600

Mgoraf

Thanks for that diomed. Even 7f isn't great there with only 2 group 3s. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Expert eye half brother ran at a mile but never won a race.

Maybe any stamina on the dams side doesn't come through with acclamation? Acclaim has danehill on his damside and only gets 7f. Danehill is also on the damside of expert eye

tryfix

Is there much point in winning the Epsom Derby anymore?

Derby winner Wings Of Eagles doesn't even get a sniff at standing in Tipperary, instead he's off to stand in France at €12,000 a pop in some kind of Association deal with Coolmore.

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/bloodstock-world/wings-of-eagles-to-stand-at-birthplace-of-haras-de-montaigu/304738

Lt Dan

tryfix wrote: »

Is there much point in winning the Epsom Derby anymore?

Derby winner Wings Of Eagles doesn't even get a sniff at standing in Tipperary, instead he's off to stand in France at €12,000 a pop in some kind of Association deal with Coolmore.

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/bloodstock-world/wings-of-eagles-to-stand-at-birthplace-of-haras-de-montaigu/304738

Yikes , I fear for Ruler of the World

Although , I believe that Juddmonte got a great deal for Workforce (a few million , I understand) when the Japanese came calling (same stud that owns Deep Impact and Harbinger, I think) , things did not work out for him and now he is a duel purpose horse in Ireland , demanding a very low fee for a record breaking Derby winner /Arc. Sure their own Rail Link (Arc winner) didn't do too great either but they at least kept him for a while.

tryfix

Lt Dan wrote: »

Yikes , I fear for Ruler of the World

Although , I believe that Juddmonte got a great deal for Workforce (a few million , I understand) when the Japanese came calling (same stud that owns Deep Impact and Harbinger, I think) , things did not work out for him and now he is a duel purpose horse in Ireland , demanding a very low fee for a record breaking Derby winner /Arc. Sure their own Rail Link (Arc winner) didn't do too great either but they at least kept him for a while.

Workforce's problems lay more in his lack of speed and in his workmanlike pedigree. He was a great horse but he didn't have a stallions pedigree. Silk purse, sow's ear springs to mind when it came to trying to make a flat stallion out of Workforce.

Ruler Of The World on the other hand has been dealt a bum hand considering he's got an excellent stallion's pedigree on both sides. He'll produce better stock than his standing fee deserves.

Coincidentally, Harbinger now an 11yo had his first ever Group 1 winner today in Japan.

Lt Dan

Aidan O'Brien and Galileo nearly got another Group 1 yesterday in Australia , 2nd by a head in the Ladbrooks Johannes Vermeer . How poor is Aussie racing?

https://www.racingpost.com/profile/horse/890343/johannes-vermeer

tryfix

Lt Dan wrote: »

Aidan O'Brien and Galileo nearly got another Group 1 yesterday in Australia , 2nd by a head in the Ladbrooks Johannes Vermeer . How poor is Aussie racing?

https://www.racingpost.com/profile/horse/890343/johannes-vermeer

I wouldn't say their racing is poor, it's in a very healthy position and there is no shortage of quality stock, imported or home grown. I'd say their pattern races and racing programmes are very badly out of sync with what's needed to match up to the European pattern.

They have high quality middle-distance European imports who they then run in big races over 7 and 8f before eventually returning them to their proper racing distances. It seems to mess up a lot of formerly high quality horse, although many imports do also thrive there. It's like some of the North American GP 1 grass races where Gp2 European horses are usually of a standard good enough to be competitive in them, but the messed up trial race opportunities over inappropriate distances in Australia adds a terrible spanner to the works.

Their idea of what constitutes a GP1 race is demonstrably inferior to Europe's quality demands for Group 1 racing.

There are 72 GP1 races in the Australian racing calendar.

In the UK there are 36 Gp 1 races.

In France there are 27 Gp races.

In Ireland there are 12 Gp 1 races.