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Marathon Improvers Thread.

hot buttered scones

From reading the training logs, I can see there are plenty of people either training for marathons or intend to start training for an autumn marathon fairly soon. We have a Novices thread and a Sub 3 support thread, so why not a thread for those of us in between?

I think I may have come across a similar thread on this forum before, but rather then revive a zombie thread I thought I'd create a new one. (Mods: I hope that's ok)

I just thought this we be a good place for people to discuss what plans they're using, what their goals are for the long and short term, give a bit of support and advice etc. and hopefully create a bit of traffic.

I'll start with myself I suppose - I'm currently training tapering for Cork in 2 weeks time. I've based my training around the Meno Plan:

Meno Plan

Training so far

Once that's done and dusted, I'll have a few weeks recovery and then it's onwards towards DCM 2017 using one of the P+D plans. I haven't quite decided what to do yet - I'm looking at the up to 70 plans, but doing mesocycle 1 from the 12 week plan and then doing the rest from the 18 week plan - this gives a 14 week plan which really suits me time wise around recovery from Cork and summer holidays.

Anyway, enough about me. What's everyone else doing?

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clickerquicklic

Funny enough just looked at schedule and have a 22 mile Lsr this week , decided I'll do 3 hours or 22 miles whatever comes first i don't see the point of going over 3 hours on a long run.

Unthought Known

Thanks for the feedback, it's cleared up (confirmed) my doubts about running 22.
I'll run 20 on Saturday with maybe the last 4-5 a little slower than MP. For the 3/4 I'm aiming to run at steady pace which will be around 9:00 (5% slower than MP).

That will be 4x20 milers for me, 3 of them with "stuff". For DCM last year I barely completed my one 20 mile run and was laid up injured for 2 weeks after.

hot buttered scones

If anyone's stuck for a tune up race this weekend I heard a discussion on Off the Ball on Newstalk about a 5k/10k run at 4pm on Saturday from Two Mile House GAA club in Kildare. The 10k is chip timed and is â‚¬25. The event is a fund raiser for a young lad who had a stroke playing a GAA match. I'll be heading to Waterford myself and I believe there's a 10k in North Kerry aswell. Fits in perfectly with the P+D plans.

ittakestwo

Now that the taper period for the marathon is coming up I am considering knocking a few pounds off in a bid to do a better time. What are people's thoughts on this and anyone else planing the same? hope to knock off about
9 pounds in the 3 week taper I will do. Have read up a bit and most think it is no harm on your recovery from the last heavy weeks of running before the taper. Plan to eat more protein so the muscle repair won't get effected. Will find it very tough, my appetite has ballooned with the long runs and I never feel full. Plan to carb load the 2 days before DCM

Slow_Runner

ittakestwo wrote: »

Now that the taper period for the marathon is coming up I am considering knocking a few pounds off in a bid to do a better time. What are people's thoughts on this and anyone else planing the same? hope to knock off about
9 pounds in the 3 week taper I will do. Have read up a bit and most think it is no harm on your recovery from the last heavy weeks of running before the taper. Plan to eat more protein so the muscle repair won't get effected. Will find it very tough, my appetite has ballooned with the long runs and I never feel full. Plan to carb load the 2 days before DCM

Loosing 3lb per week is quite a lot and would probably be more detrimental to your marathon than running with the extra weight at this stage - you are more than likely going to lose muscle mass as well as fat with such a drop and hence lose strength. I'm 5lbs up on my usual marathon weight right now but will not look to loose too much between now and marathon day as not worth the risk, whatever i lose, I lose but don't plan on changing my diet.
If you can keep your food intake up as you need to maintain strength - most runners gain a couple of pounds during taper but remember -this is fuel for the race so if you crash diet during the taper you risk turning up on the start line under fed and lower energy levels. Try to keep your diet it as unprocessed as possible and eat healthily - you will find after a few days that you are fuller this way.
IMO unless you are an elite runner your diet before the race shouldn't really change that much (obv no Indian take away and feed of pints!) - it won't make a huge difference and you want your stomach to be used to what you are going to eat. For the last 2 months I have eaten the same meal on Friday evening and same breakfast Sat morning before all my long runs and for the week before the marathon eat the same breakfast at the same time as I plan to on race morning - just to make sure everything "moves" in a predictable manner

RayCun

ittakestwo wrote: »

Plan to carb load the 2 days before DCM

Carb loading is something most amateurs don't know how to do, and should avoid.

Just eat normally. Clean up your diet if you can (which is advice for every day, not specifically the weeks before the marathon), but don't try to lose weight.

hot buttered scones

Slow_Runner wrote: »

obv no Indian take away and feed of pints! .

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

When is my last oppurtunity for a bit of this??

ittakestwo

RayCun wrote: »

Carb loading is something most amateurs don't know how to do, and should avoid.

Just eat normally. Clean up your diet if you can (which is advice for every day, not specifically the weeks before the marathon), but don't try to lose weight.

If I cleaned up the diet I would probably lose the weight anyway... definitely not a clean eater by any stretch, eat loads of biscuits and crisps most days. If I cut the crap out it might happen anyway, As said above by SlowRunner probably 3 pounds is too much. Just like the idea of being lighter than the last marathon, from a physical point of view it makes sense that to haul around less weight over 42k would be a lot easier.

zulutango

ittakestwo wrote: »

If I cleaned up the diet I would probably lose the weight anyway... definitely not a clean eater by any stretch, eat loads of biscuits and crisps most days. If I cut the crap out it might happen anyway, As said above by SlowRunner probably 3 pounds is too much. Just like the idea of being lighter than the last marathon, from a physical point of view it makes sense that to haul around less weight over 42k would be a lot easier.

It's starting to become clearer why you're struggling with the marathon distance. Eating well isn't just about being lighter. It's about fuelling properly for your training. If you're not doing that right, then your training won't be as good as it could be and you won't come near to reaching your potential. You can look forward to good improvements if you tackle this head on I think. It's worth it.

anais

Does anyone know where I can get 'tailwind' in a bricks and mortar shop? Thanks

clickerquicklic

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Funny enough just looked at schedule and have a 22 mile Lsr this week , decided I'll do 3 hours or 22 miles whatever comes first i don't see the point of going over 3 hours on a long run.

Further to this - a question if I may , I planned out a 17mile route which finished with a 3 mile parkrun , I didn't really clock watch just went off feel if I noticed I did a fast km early i took it back a notch .

I got to the parkrun bang on 9:30 and straight into it it's a tough parkrun and mile 20 had a tough uphill but I was fine , i finished parkrun and jogged back to car I had to be home then so couldn't run any more , physically I was fine not out of breath much despite throwing down a fast parkrun legs felt tired but ok. My question is should I go longer ? Is 2:40 enough ? Does everyone hit a wall of some sort ? I'm looking at a 3:20 marathon is there a chance I hit 3 hours on marathon day and the body breaks down , 3 hours is going to take me to 22 miles I have one more week to do it .

Also around mile 19/20 when I was running much faster I got this strange taste in my mouth like a copper taste , I find the gels very very hard to take took 2 and they are so sweet I really just get them into me and take a mouthful of water to try wash them down , does anyone else get this weird taste could be gel repeating on me ? Thanks

ittakestwo

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Also around mile 19/20 when I was running much faster I got this strange taste in my mouth like a copper taste , I find the gels very very hard to take took 2 and they are so sweet I really just get them into me and take a mouthful of water to try wash them down , does anyone else get this weird taste could be gel repeating on me ? Thanks

Those gels are gross, I switched to Basset Jellybabies which are easy to digest and you look forward to taking them not like with the gels. I would not take the gels if you think they are giving you a strange taste in the mouth... It would a distraction from staying relaxed during the marathon which cant be good.

clickerquicklic

ittakestwo wrote: »

Those gels are gross, I switched to Basset Jellybabies which are easy to digest and you look forward to taking them not like with the gels. I would not take the gels if you think they are giving you a strange taste in the mouth... It would a distraction from staying relaxed during the marathon which cant be good.

I don't think I could actually chew anything like a sweet but i must try. I can live with the taste of the gels if it gets me around the marathon without bonking. My big unknown is the 20mile wall they talk about . I haven't felt any signs yet of it appearing but haven't been much over the 20mile mark.

ger664

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Also around mile 19/20 when I was running much faster I got this strange taste in my mouth like a copper taste , I find the gels very very hard to take took 2 and they are so sweet I really just get them into me and take a mouthful of water to try wash them down , does anyone else get this weird taste could be gel repeating on me ? Thanks

Nothing to do with the gels. Metalic taste in your mouth is quiet common its most likely very small micro amounts of blood been exhaled from the lungs. Nothing to be concerned about some studies have show this occurs in 15% of marathon runners.

If physically see or cough up blood or have some respiratory infection then its is a completely different matter and attend your doctor.

RayCun

clickerquicklic wrote: »

Does everyone hit a wall of some sort ? I'm looking at a 3:20 marathon is there a chance I hit 3 hours on marathon day and the body breaks down , 3 hours is going to take me to 22 miles I have one more week to do it .

There's no particular magic time or distance. You might be completely fecked after 3 hours on marathon day, but a 22 mile run isn't going to change that

ittakestwo

Has anyone been progressively increasing the long run every weekend for the last few weeks or every second weekend and doing a semi long run inbetween like a lot of plans recommend,
Also other plans say to increase 3 in a row and on the 4th have a recovery week with a drop in the long run.

Not following a plan and yeah a little too late to have the pefect preperation but for the last few weeks my long runs have progressed by 2k every weekend. 20, 22, 24, 26, and 28 yesterday. I plan to do 30 this weekend and now decided to do a 2 week taper instead of a 3 so plan a 32k the week after next. Is this too much longer runs progressively every weekend without a recovery week? Woulld it be better to do a recovery week this weekend with a shorter long run and do one more 30/32k the week after? As I have been doing long runs on Saturday, I will have a 15 day taper.

Ran a total 92k last week and plan 96k this week so long runs are making up about 30% of weekly volume if that makes a difference.

I am feeling good at the moment and not tired so my gut is telling me just to keep going and not do a recovery week.

kerrylad1

ittakestwo wrote: »

Has anyone been progressively increasing the long run every weekend for the last few weeks or every second weekend and doing a semi long run inbetween like a lot of plans recommend,
Also other plans say to increase 3 in a row and on the 4th have a recovery week with a drop in the long run.

Not following a plan and yeah a little too late to have the pefect preperation but for the last few weeks my long runs have progressed by 2k every weekend. 20, 22, 24, 26, and 28 yesterday. I plan to do 30 this weekend and now decided to do a 2 week taper instead of a 3 so plan a 32k the week after next. Is this too much longer runs progressively every weekend without a recovery week? Woulld it be better to do a recovery week this weekend with a shorter long run and do one more 30/32k the week after? As I have been doing long runs on Saturday, I will have a 15 day taper.

Ran a total 92k last week and plan 96k this week so long runs are making up about 30% of weekly volume if that makes a difference.

I am feeling good at the moment and not tired so my gut is telling me just to keep going and not do a recovery week.

If you have no niggles,and your feeling good,I would work away ,and do your last long run.I also do a 2 week taper,and 90% of the time I'm OK on marathon day.Just listen to your body.I should,but I've never done a recovery week in a marathon training block.Best of luck,hope everything goes to plan for you on the day.

ooter

Was thinking of doing a yasso 800 session in the next week or 2 in the build up to DCM but the more I think about it the more I reckon a straight 8km rather than 10 X 800m intervals would be a better indicator.
I ran 1:40 in the HM comfortably enough last week and am hoping to go 3:30 or less in the full, but I reckon I'd run 10 X 03:15 intervals for 800m handy enough with 03:15 rest in between each one which would suggest 3:15 for the marathon which I know I'm way off.
I reckon I could go sub 35 for 5 mile/8km which is sub 03:30 pace for 800m and would suggest sub 3:30 for the marathon which would make a lot more sense, in my case anyway.
Does that make sense or is it a poor comparison?

Murph_D

ooter wrote: »

Was thinking of doing a yasso 800 session in the next week or 2 in the build up to DCM but the more I think about it the more I reckon a straight 8km rather than 10 X 800m intervals would be a better indicator.
I ran 1:40 in the HM comfortably enough last week and am hoping to go 3:30 or less in the full, but I reckon I'd run 10 X 03:15 intervals for 800m handy enough with 03:15 rest in between each one which would suggest 3:15 for the marathon which I know I'm way off.
I reckon I could go sub 35 for 5 mile/8km which is sub 03:30 pace for 800m and would suggest sub 3:30 for the marathon which would make a lot more sense, in my case anyway.
Does that make sense or is it a poor comparison?

With all due respect, a few weeks out from DCM, you should just go with your training paces rather than some pace test a few weeks out.

ooter

Murph_D wrote: »

With all due respect, a few weeks out from DCM, you should just go with your training paces rather than some pace test a few weeks out.

Thanks, the training programme I'm following (p&d) has an 8-15km tune up race 2 weeks out from the marathon, I was just wondering whether doing a 8km yasso session might be a give me a better idea of where I'm at.
I'll keep my ramblings to myself from now on.

zulutango

I did a Yasso session last Thursday and managed 10 x 800m. Each was 3:00 and I took a 3:00 interval between each. My target for the marathon is 3:15:00 so this is faster than I should be doing perhaps. As usual, when I head off to do hard sessions the weather doesn't play ball and this turned it into one of those character building sessions. Anyway, for my long run yesterday, the tiredness was still in the legs and from the beginning I just wasn't feeling it. Again, the weather was total ****e, with strong winds and wet, slippy surface on the road. I pushed through and did what the programme suggested - 2 miles easy, 10 miles at marathon pace and the last 2 miles at 10k pace - but I really couldn't go faster or further, which I think is somewhat ominous. The marathon, after all, is 8 miles longer than what I did yesterday. But I'm hoping it's because of the tough Yasso session on Thursday coupled with the harsh conditions yesterday, and that with fresh legs (and hopefully ok weather) on the marathon day I'll be ok. The body is really aching this morning. I'm not sure if that helps you in any way, but it's maybe a bit of insight into what someone on a similar level is doing.

ittakestwo

zulutango wrote: »

Anyway, for my long run yesterday, the tiredness was still in the legs and from the beginning I just wasn't feeling it.

This is something I am trying to this year. Doing long runs on fatigued or tired legs. Having always crashed at 30k I am trying to teach the legs to run on already tired legs in the hope they can go longer on the day. Last week I did a hard tempo 2 days before the long run, next day legs were very heavy and did a recovery run that I found tough and doubted if I would be able to do the LSR the next day, but luckily legs had recovered enough but still not ''fresh''.

Read a bit about it and some experts say this is a great way to strength legs for the marathon. But your risk of injury does increase which is the downside to this.

Also the crap weather is annoying, was suppose to be doing a track day today but switched to a hill run... what is the point in sprinting into a 50km/h wind and measuring your time.

Henry42

I managed 80k and then 90k in the last two weeks. I was planning to peak at 100k this week, but the quality of (some of) my workouts have suffered as I ramped up the mileage so I'm taking a day off today that I hadn't planned and will probably just do 90k again this week before I taper.

Happy with my progress though. 20 miles on Saturday wasn't nearly as tough as it used to be. Finished in something like 2.37 and had a lot more in me.

Still hoping for 3.20 in DCM.

Van.Bosch

I know there are lots of other factors but what would your initial estimate be for someone who did a LSR at an easy pace - 21.25 miles in 3:24. What would you expect them to do in DCM?

zulutango

Well, my marathon plans have taken a dent. It turns out the tightness I felt in my legs after the long run on Sunday is a small muscle tear. It's bloody annoying because I was looking forward to the Galway Bay Half Marathon this weekend, and that's almost certainly not going to happen now. I'll see how it feels in a few days. Hopefully it doesn't scupper the marathon plan.

denis b

zulutango wrote: »

Well, my marathon plans have taken a dent. It turns out the tightness I felt in my legs after the long run on Sunday is a small muscle tear. It's bloody annoying because I was looking forward to the Galway Bay Half Marathon this weekend, and that's almost certainly not going to happen now. I'll see how it feels in a few days. Hopefully it doesn't scupper the marathon plan.

I feel your pain, literally. Keeping things on a knife edge here treating an ITB and associated inflamed tendon to the kneecap. Can you salvage the main prize?

El Caballo

Same story here. Got a sharp pain on the medial side of my knee during Sunday's 20 miler, Kept going as it seemed to come and go throughout the run. Woke up Monday and could only flex my knee a small bit. Been persistently foam rolling my quads and hip flexor this week so far and have moved all my runs to grass which seems to have helped a lot.

denis b

El Caballo wrote: »

Same story here. Got a sharp pain on the medial side of my knee during Sunday's 20 miler, Kept going as it seemed to come and go throughout the run. Woke up Monday and could only flex my knee a small bit. Been persistently foam rolling my quads and hip flexor this week so far and have moved all my runs to grass which seems to have helped a lot.

Excellent idea. Will move as much as I can to grass. It feels as though I have come pretty close to as much training as I can manage this cycle. Still looking forward to the 32 kms on Sunday and will see the physio to work on some support taping to remove pressure from the tendon. Intensive massaging on ITB and quads is working. Not the sort of pre marathon tension I was expecting

Work at it folks. Nearly there.

Kennyg71

denis b wrote: »

Excellent idea. Will move as much as I can to grass. It feels as though I have come pretty close to as much training as I can manage this cycle. Still looking forward to the 32 kms on Sunday and will see the physio to work on some support taping to remove pressure from the tendon. Intensive massaging on ITB and quads is working. Not the sort of pre marathon tension I was expecting

Work at it folks. Nearly there.

Must be the time for it, my left glute totally locked up after abandoning a 14 mile MLR this morning, physio in morning. Wasn't a peep out if it on Sunday.

zulutango

Kennyg71 wrote: »

Must be the time for it, my left glute totally locked up after abandoning a 14 mile MLR this morning, physio in morning. Wasn't a peep out if it on Sunday.

My mistake was to do a hard speed session last Thursday and then not listen to my body when I was heading out for a long run on Sunday. I'd have thought a three day break for the muscles was sufficient, but I knew when I was setting off on Sunday that I was far from fresh. I probably would have gotten away with it if I just did the distance and abandoned the plan to do the last 2 miles at 10k pace. That was the final straw for the muscles I guess. There were warnings there. I should have heeded them.