TrustedApple wrote: » Considering OP I am in my 20s and I would consider must my age to be extremely lazy and won t everything yesterday . So when I will be hireing someone else for my team in the next few months I don't care about age and if I think you won t be lazy and do your job I am happy out.
insultedatinterview wrote: » Hi All, Just looking for a bit of advice. I should probably let this go, however it really upset me and I am wondering what to do. Now I know by making a complaint it won't benefit me in anyway, but having been looking for work for a few months now with no luck, I have been astounded at the amount of smug, ignorant interviewers (usually high up managers). An interview the other day was particularly bad. And I do not know if I should make a formal complaint or just grin and bare it and continue to let people speak to me in such a manner , as I need a job. The interviewer asked me my age. She then said " I am always concerned about people who are later in life and haven't had it happen for them yet" I did not know what to say. I just finished a masters and I have a lot of work experience. At the end of the interview she reiterated again her concern about my age..and asked me "why hasn't it happened for you yet?" I didn't know what to say, and was left bumbling like a mortified idiot, and I am ashamed to say the comment really upset me, feeling depressed and embarrassed following the interview. I would also like to say this is a large Multinational IT company. Does anyone have experience of this in interviews? If so, how can you deal with it/ respond to offensive interviewers? I am exhausted from dealing with these kinds of people at interviews. Thanks for any advice.
TrustedApple wrote: » To be fair I have jump hop quite a lot. But each role is a role up higher on the ladder. I have went from inturn to head of a dept for the EU in 31 months and have been in 4 company's........ You just have to see the jobs to and to give faith in your workers as well. I am now doing endless projects and can see how people who have been in management for 15 years are doing mistakes and costing money after 30 mins
davo10 wrote: » Some might think that if you are so easily offended, it would be a huge risk employing you.
davo10 wrote: » Jeez. One question in an interview and it's a breeding school for cage fighters.
hots wrote: » Exactly, it's an easy one to spin into talking about anything positive at all from your CV. "Why did it take you so long to get here" quickly becomes "tell me about all the great stuff you've ever done"
Xterminator wrote: » Hi Op you made the choice to be offended by this remark. It was a question that you could have aced and turned it around to show how your passion for education had led you to a masters ... or any other slant on this comment you chose. its an opportunity to reflect on why it hit a nerve, and how you would handle such a situation next time.
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server down wrote: » Either you guys didn't read the OP, or you can't read in general.She wasn't asked a question. The interviewer made two ageist statements. One at the end of the interview where no response was possible, a clear signal that she was thinking about discriminating on age.The question that you all think is legal ( why are you still in that position) isn't recommended either - following this thread I looked at my companies interview guidelines. It is only ok to ask someone in a technical junior position for a long time why they haven't become a senior, as that can be a competence issue in the role you are actually interviewing for. You don't get to ask somebody who is coming in to interview as an accountant why they aren't a Vice President. Also it recommends not using the term "over experienced" which is fairly loaded and probably a proxy for age. Its not like people refuse to go to over experienced doctors.
hots wrote: » She most definitely was asked a question. Your company guidelines =/= legal or otherwise. You absolutely can ask someone about their job history, especially if it doesn't match the role they're applying for... If someone took 10 years to get to the second level when it normally takes 5 you'd be a pretty poor interviewer to not try and find out if it's because they're sh/te or if they were on a career break/havingkids/climbing mountains or whatever. I still think this interviewer was a dick but people are getting very precious about questions being asked of you. You have the right to be asked them (as someone corrected me earlier, you can be asked anything, just not discriminated on based on your answer) and the same right to be offended too.
server down wrote: » This isnt a question, it is a statement.I am always concerned about people who are later in life and haven't had it happen for them yet she did ask a question ( re-iterating the ageism) later but at the end of the interview, where it was largely rhetorical. It's a statement on intent to discriminate based on age. And "happen for them yet" is pretty ambiguous. There are ways to ask people why they are not on level 5 rather than level 2 ( whatever that means) and here is how you would do that. "Why are you not on level 5 rather than level 2?". As I said just above that is the only possible legit question there -- why a junior technical role hasn't become a senior technical role - and it wasn't asked in that fashion. I read, and I think most people read, the senior manager as asking the candidate why they are not a senior manager like her. And company guidelines are designed to make sure that the company cannot be sued, and are based on US laws. Irish laws are fairly similar.
hots wrote: » Can you point out in irish law (or any other sure) where I can only ask a candidate "why a junior technical role hasn't become a senior technical role"? Nonsense of the highest order. And you must have a far more imaginative grasp of reading than I do, I don't believe there was a rhetorical question asked. I would hope your guidelines are designed to teach you how to conduct a productive interview, not just being legal. Ambiguous questions aren't illegal. Offending questions aren't illegal. In fact questions at all aren't illegal (to be clear "how old are you?" and "why haven't you made it yet?" are 100% questions no matter how you interpret them).
givyjoe wrote: » The laws around discrimination and subsequent cases, mean it's been interpreted that you cannot ask 'how old are you' unless there is a specific, non discriminatory valid reason for asking.. age simply isn't relevant unless you need to be >over 25 for insurance purposes for example.
hots wrote: » Really? I was leaning that way in the first place but another poster's "it's only a questions..." vs proven discrimination sounded plausible. Any source for it?
hots wrote: » Can you point out in irish law (or any other sure) where I can only ask a candidate "why a junior technical role hasn't become a senior technical role"? Nonsense of the highest order. And you must have a far more imaginative grasp of reading than I do, I don't believe there was a rhetorical question asked.
I would hope your guidelines are designed to teach you how to conduct a productive interview, not just being legal.
Ambiguous questions aren't illegal. Offending questions aren't illegal. In fact questions at all aren't illegal (to be clear "how old are you?" and "why haven't you made it yet?" are 100% questions no matter how you interpret them).
givyjoe wrote: » Sorry, i don't quite follow?
AS described the woman originally made a statement. To work this out in print look for the ?.
theres nothing ambiguous about asking someones age and then stating that you worry about people of that age interviewing for that position.
can you actually tell us your credentials, because you are positioning yourself as an expert here - yet you seem to know bog all.
hots wrote: » I was wondering if you have a source for where asking how old someone is has been deemed as discriminatory? I thought it wouldn't be allowed initially but then when another poster pointed out it's just a question I flipped the other way...
server down wrote: » I actually joined up ( as a long time lurker, one time poster a while back) to respond to this thread. Either the people defending the interviewer are thick, or not conversant with the laws. Or both. I am a middle manager with an multinational US based IT company of renown. Quite simply, whatever the actual practices of any of these companies, their stated company laws and ordinances are clear. You don't discriminate on grounds of race, age, marital status, disability etc. And you will get training about this. They will say don't ask about those topics. Don't mention those words. I will explain the reason for the training after. It isn't necessarily to stop all discrimination, it is to give the appearance of it and to cover butts. Some examples of what you can't say. whatever the genuine reason for not hiring a black man, saying "Sorry, are you black - you look rather tan" will leave you open to discriminatory lawsuits. The only reason to ask that question is to work out the persons race. Why would you need to know? Except to discriminate. The courts will assume the latter if he is not hired. Whatever the reason for not hiring a disabled person saying "Sorry, are you disabled. You hobbled in, but I don't see a wheelchair?". There is no reason to ask except ( courts will generally assume) to discriminate. Whatever the reason for not hiring a pregnant woman, saying "Sorry, are you pregnant. You look up the bubble". There is no reason to ask that question except ( courts will generally assume) to discriminate. ill leave how you deal with age as an exercise to the user, but -- since this isnt a very bright thread -- let me explain how you would word a question about over experience. "You seem over experienced for this role? Have you ever thought of getting promoted in any previous job". You will note the missing word there. Rhymes with cage. People get training in these things not to stop all discrimination, which is impossible ( you can go back to your desk and whisper "Too old" all you like or do it in a locked room -- but do not send an email). The training is so that the company can deny charges of systematic discrimination, that a single suit doesn't become a class action suit. The company wants to say "Sure, this woman was ageist but -- look she did the training. She signed off on the training. This is a once off" ( I've never had interview training where you haven't had to sign off and I do that training every year). Advice to OP. Send an email to corporate HR in the US. HR in Ireland is glorified receptionists. Over there they have legal training. Take a case to the WRC. I can't see you losing. They will almost certainly settle before that. The interviewer is toast. HR Dublin may be toast if they didn't enforce the training.
givyjoe wrote: » Studying/Employment Law Case and first hand experience from Solicitors teaching my class. The logic behind it being intent, i.e. you have to justify asking such a question.. Think about it, why would you ask someone their age if you were't going to use it in deciding whether or not to give them a job. SO unless there are clear, objective grounds for asking e.g. a legal requirement i mentioned already, you 'cannot' ask it as it will potentially lead to a case being taken should the candidate not be hired. Of course I'm sure many people do get asked such questions and don't do anything about it. There is what the law allows you to do and what companies and staff actually do. In short, it is 'just a question', but its a question which could well land you in court.
hots wrote: » Cool, that makes far more sense. I've often wondered how hiring-discrimination could be "proven" when all an employer would have to do is make up any old nonsense... It sounds like being stupid enough to ask it blatantly would be enough to have them in trouble.
givyjoe wrote: » Studying/Employment Law Case and first hand experience from Solicitors teaching my class. The logic behind it being intent, i.e. you have to justify asking such a question.. t.
davo10 wrote: » I'll gladly bow to your knowledge on the subject. I suspect the intent in the ops case was to assess why the ops career hadn't progressed. Many applicants ask at interview about the prospects for promotion based on experience, qualifications and ability. Surely the same is allowed to asked by the employer, given your age/experience and qualifications, why weren't you promoted?
givyjoe wrote: » Eh, not quite. That's the tricky part, proving that the question was actually asked. Being stupid enough to ask, admitting it and then having evidence to incriminate yourself is what will probably need to happen before the trouble begins. That would be the biggest problem the OP would have. It would, or rather could essentially be a case of he said, she said.
