General sheep thread

km man, I can't comment on that as even if I was in the lairage all that happened there would be nothing I'd have anything to do with. That would be factory rather than Dept. business.

Ok answer this ! a friend of mine was charged for clipping last year. He rang the factory and demanded as to why. They told him his lambs were dirty. Ok says the friend thats odd...i had them sheared a week ago. Refund was demanded and promptly paid.

I totally agree with a dirty sheep policy but it was blatantly applied as a money grabbing exercise by the big 3 factories last spring.

Sheep breeder wrote: »

Don't now how the operatives on the line know who's lambs are coming up to them, the only person on the line who mows who own lambs is the man on the scales doing out the dockets for each lot,the lads on the line only want to know when the last lamb is dead to finish,
From my time in the factory's one of the biggest improvement to stop dirty carcass was putting clips on the skin folding and holding in place before the hide puller.

The brunt of dealing with dirty carcases is taken by the trimmers who are the last operatives before the scales so they can see the owners name. It's a tough pressurised job. No praise, just chastisement when they miss bits. They start at 7.30, finish between 4.00 and 6.00 with 1 or 2 fifteen minute breaks and a 30 minute dinner break. With a large batch of dirty lambs the sweat would be rolling. It's hard to maintain motivation when you're physically tired (despite some rotation in jobs). There's a limited number of workers willing to trim and even less that are good at the job. In an ideal world it would be the easiest job on the line. It's the hardest.

Green farmer wrote: »

I can understand some lads getting docked on cleanliness, as long as it's properly and fairly run. Just with the mistrust in the industry, farmers would be fearful that some factories may use it as a mechanism to dock a larger percentage of lambs then necessary or abuse the system when calculating up the cheque payments, but as you have explained, it is warranted in some cases.

To be honest, farmers have been getting away with it for a long time. Even the people in the lairage who should be holding up sheep for a while have been throwing a blind eye to it. They know a lot of the farmers coming in, they are farmers or farmers sons themselves. Or they have a rapport with the larger suppliers. The problem has been that if they were to insult a supplier they were afraid he'd take his sheep elsewhere. It has always been the case that any rules had to be applied by all factories together and equally. Maybe this will happen this time.

I don't know if docking is involved or not. In the case of really bad or persistent offenders I'd be for some form of sanction. I've seen the hardship and toll it takes on workers for too many years to be soft on the issue.

Sheep breeder

rangler1 wrote: »

Obviously I don't have a reputation for dirty sheep if the operatives don't have them flagged before they even get to the line, Mine would be in the last ones off one the lorries so usually don't make the line before lunch, however the ones held over apparently were killed first thing this morning.
Wonder how many of mine were detained , they usually slow down the line don't they if sheep are dirty to give the operatives a chance

Don't now how the operatives on the line know who's lambs are coming up to them, the only person on the line who mows who own lambs is the man on the scales doing out the dockets for each lot,the lads on the line only want to know when the last lamb is dead to finish,
From my time in the factory's one of the biggest improvement to stop dirty carcass was putting clips on the skin folding and holding in place before the hide puller.

rangler1 wrote: »

Obviously I don't have a reputation for dirty sheep if the operatives don't have them flagged before they even get to the line.

The operatives could flag them but I'm not aware it's being done. The comment I reported would be heard on the line beside the scales when the owners name could be seen on the computer screen.

Wonder how many of mine were detained , they usually slow down the line don't they if sheep are dirty to give the operatives a chance

They can slow down the line though of course they don't want to. The line workers are paid per animal and don't want to be there any longer than necessary.
Usually as you said the sheep are held for a while to allow to dry. It's not a complete answer though. Instead of the muck being wet and spreading by touch, it dries out and is shed like a cloud over the carcase when the hide-pullers strips it the hide off. It is then seen as dots of dust over the hindlegs of the carcase. Better than smeared over the carcase but still a problem, although a lesser evil.

Green farmer

Thanks grey, for the informative description of the procedures and processes that happen on behind the scenes. I only see the unloading pen, where I drop off the lambs and the next thing step I witness is the carcass being weighed. Wasn't aware of the mechanisms that happen between. I can understand some lads getting docked on cleanliness, as long as it's properly and fairly run. Just with the mistrust in the industry, farmers would be fearful that some factories may use it as a mechanism to dock a larger percentage of lambs then necessary or abuse the system when calculating up the cheque payments, but as you have explained, it is warranted in some cases.

greysides wrote: »

I've often wondered if I have seen your sheep. If the sheep were killed after dinner then I wouldn't have seen them. I don't have answers as to where the dirt may have come as it's not part of the job I'm familiar with. I am, however, very familiar with the part where it has to be dealt with.
While everyone may send up the odd dirty lot due to unique circumstances, when you see the same names presenting dirty sheep time and again it's pretty obvious where the problem lies. When the factory operatives go, 'Oh sh1t! Look whose lambs are next!", then you know they've twinged as well. Cue 90% of the next batch of lambs going out on the detained rail for further trimming. Sometimes with the owner standing watching....

Obviously I don't have a reputation for dirty sheep if the operatives don't have them flagged before they even get to the line, Mine would be in the last ones off one the lorries so usually don't make the line before lunch, however the ones held over apparently were killed first thing this morning.
Wonder how many of mine were detained , they usually slow down the line don't they if sheep are dirty to give the operatives a chance

rangler1 wrote: »

I presume you saw mine then, they were put in at 4oc on Wednesday, they were clean but wet, loaded into my own trailer next morning at 6 and unloaded at 7, loaded on to the lorry then and unloaded just before lunch at one,
Where did the dirt come from, my trailer was as clean when i unloaded as when i loaded, any dirt that was on the lambs was sheared off on tuesday.
It's more than coincidental that all the sheep at one loading depot were held back till today,
Some things it seems you cant control

I've often wondered if I have seen your sheep. If the sheep were killed after dinner then I wouldn't have seen them. I don't have answers as to where the dirt may have come as it's not part of the job I'm familiar with. I am, however, very familiar with the part where it has to be dealt with.
While everyone may send up the odd dirty lot due to unique circumstances, when you see the same names presenting dirty sheep time and again it's pretty obvious where the problem lies. When the factory operatives go, 'Oh sh1t! Look whose lambs are next!", then you know they've twinged as well. Cue 90% of the next batch of lambs going out on the detained rail for further trimming. Sometimes with the owner standing watching....

tomwaterford wrote: »

Deos the dirty lamb make that much of a difference to the meat? (Genuinely curious as it's years since I seen lambs getting killed)

Id have just presumed the wool would've keep skin relatively clean?and never crossed my mind that it would dirty the meat

No one would want a leg of lamb with sh1t on the outside of it. Or soil. Buyers won't accept it either. Its a health risk due E. coli O157, Salmonella, Campylobacter etc. Once the leg is dirty trimming will remove the contamination that is visible but not necessarily all the bacteria will be removed as we're talking microscopic now. While the housewife could trim off the dirt is there any guarantee her knife, hands or packing material wont spread it elsewhere?

The wool/skin naturally keeps the meat clean... until you go to separate the two. The hide is loosened by several workers doing their own part of the process until two machines can strip the entire hide. While it is being loosened the hide can roll in and touch the meat despite there being procedures to try to avoid this. Also if a knife or hock-cutters gets contaminated by one carcase it can spread it to another. Once there is dirt in the vincinity with the amount of handling, movement and work going on in the area it is virtually impossible to prevent every possible bit of cross-contamination. This is hard physical work and human errors occur too. The skinners are very capable, amazingly so, but they can be over run.
Basically, if the lambs come in clean (to the killing line), then they'll leave clean (to the chills). It's as simple as that.

greysides wrote: »

I do TVI work on the line in one of the big sheep plants. In recent times there has been major weeping and gnashing of teeth in an effort to improve the cleanliness of the finished carcase. This is being driven by customer requirements and a wish to get into certain markets. The brunt of the effort is falling on the killing line operatives. The problem is you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear no matter how much stress you put on operatives and procedures. Over many years I've seen one lot of lambs come up to the scales in need of much further trimming to make them acceptable and once the lot changes the next lot are perfectly clean. That's down to how they were presented for slaughter not due to the operatives or procedures. It's hard to assess how dirty a lamb is standing in a group in a pen. Once held up on the line awaiting skinning is when you'll see it. I've seen some grossly dirty lambs come up from the lairage. The workers do an impressive job of keeping the carcase clean considering. But it's still not enough. If the sheep are presented dirty, the carcase will be dirty. A carcase that is clean to start with is better than one that needed to be trimmed further....someone will be eating it!
I've seen this so many times it's a truth carved in stone. That's whether its an inconvenient truth or not.
Some lambs that have travelled long distances can often be cleaner than ones loaded just up the road.
The cleanliness issue is one that needs to be tackled at all levels. It can't just be done on the killing line.
Sometimes I'd like to see farmers eating their own lambs after seeing how they came up for skinning. They wouldn't need any vegetables on the plate that day.

I presume you saw mine then, they were put in at 4oc on Wednesday, they were clean but wet, loaded into my own trailer next morning at 6 and unloaded at 7, loaded on to the lorry then and unloaded just before lunch at one,
Where did the dirt come from, my trailer was as clean when i unloaded as when i loaded, any dirt that was on the lambs was sheared off on tuesday.
It's more than coincidental that all the sheep at one loading depot were held back till today,
Some things it seems you cant control

tomwaterford

greysides wrote: »

I do TVI work on the line in one of the big sheep plants. In recent times there has been major weeping and gnashing of teeth in an effort to improve the cleanliness of the finished carcase. This is being driven by customer requirements and a wish to get into certain markets. The brunt of the effort is falling on the killing line operatives. The problem is you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear no matter how much stress you put on operatives and procedures. Over many years I've seen one lot of lambs come up to the scales in need of much further trimming to make them acceptable and once the lot changes the next lot are perfectly clean. That's down to how they were presented for slaughter not due to the operatives or procedures. It's hard to assess how dirty a lamb is standing in a group in a pen. Once held up on the line awaiting skinning is when you'll see it. I've seen some grossly dirty lambs come up from the lairage. The workers do an impressive job of keeping the carcase clean considering. But it's still not enough. If the sheep are presented dirty, the carcase will be dirty. A carcase that is clean to start with is better than one that needed to be trimmed further....someone will be eating it!
I've seen this so many times it's a truth carved in stone. That's whether its an inconvenient truth or not.
Some lambs that have travelled long distances can often be cleaner than ones loaded just up the road.
The cleanliness issue is one that needs to be tackled at all levels. It can't just be done on the killing line.
Sometimes I'd like to see farmers eating their own lambs after seeing how they came up for skinning. They wouldn't need any vegetables on the plate that day.

Deos the dirty lamb make that much of a difference to the meat? (Genuinely curious as it's years since I seen lambs getting killed)

Id have just presumed the wool would've keep skin relatively clean?and never crossed my mind that it would dirty the meat

I do TVI work on the line in one of the big sheep plants. In recent times there has been major weeping and gnashing of teeth in an effort to improve the cleanliness of the finished carcase. This is being driven by customer requirements and a wish to get into certain markets. The brunt of the effort is falling on the killing line operatives. The problem is you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear no matter how much stress you put on operatives and procedures. Over many years I've seen one lot of lambs come up to the scales in need of much further trimming to make them acceptable and once the lot changes the next lot are perfectly clean. That's down to how they were presented for slaughter not due to the operatives or procedures. It's hard to assess how dirty a lamb is standing in a group in a pen. Once held up on the line awaiting skinning is when you'll see it. I've seen some grossly dirty lambs come up from the lairage. The workers do an impressive job of keeping the carcase clean considering. But it's still not enough. If the sheep are presented dirty, the carcase will be dirty. A carcase that is clean to start with is better than one that needed to be trimmed further....someone will be eating it!
I've seen this so many times it's a truth carved in stone. That's whether its an inconvenient truth or not.
Some lambs that have travelled long distances can often be cleaner than ones loaded just up the road.
The cleanliness issue is one that needs to be tackled at all levels. It can't just be done on the killing line.
Sometimes I'd like to see farmers eating their own lambs after seeing how they came up for skinning. They wouldn't need any vegetables on the plate that day.

kk.man wrote: »

What live weight were they?...just have a few to go next week and its a while since my last batch.

Average 47kg

rangler1 wrote: »

After all the hassle the lambs made €103 and killed out 45%, so can't complain

What live weight were they?...just have a few to go next week and its a while since my last batch.

After all the hassle the lambs made €103 and killed out 45%, so can't complain

J.O. Farmer

ganmo wrote: »

ahh but that would cost them not us

Don't worry we'd pay for it in the long run. There'd a new wash and blow dry charge which would hopefully be less than in a hairdressers.

ganmo

razor8 wrote: »

I sent lambs the last 2 weeks on lorry and no issues. Surely they could provide a shower system and as mad as it sounds a big industrial dryer if needed when they're dealing in the numbers they process every week

ahh but that would cost them not us

razor8

I sent lambs the last 2 weeks on lorry and no issues. Surely they could provide a shower system and as mad as it sounds a big industrial dryer if needed when they're dealing in the numbers they process every week

kk.man wrote: »

It is probably..dept of agri has guidelines but they haven't insisted on them. IF A hadn't agreed to them either.

No, they're doing a solo run on it,
They're insisting on them now.

''Clean Livestock Policy for Sheep
Based on recent evaluation by DAFM of sheep carcase hygiene in slaughter plants, it is clear that there is also a need to significantly improve performance in relation to the cleanliness of incoming sheep, to ensure the continuation and expansion of this valuable trade.
The Department has accordingly developed a clean livestock policy for sheep, in consultation with stakeholders, with a view to making a sustained progress on a collaborative basis. The policy document, finalised in February 2017, can be accessed by clicking on the following link: Clean Livestock Policy - Sheep (pdf 378Kb)
CLP Sheep Producers Guide Print Version (pdf 2,073Kb)
CLP Sheep Transport Guide Print Version (pdf 2,540Kb) ''

rangler1 wrote: »

It's another european directive is it not,

It is probably..dept of agri has guidelines but they haven't insisted on them. IF A hadn't agreed to them either.

kk.man wrote: »

This was not a public service idea...the big plants adopted this...i killed sheep in a smaller plant last year and no clean sheep policy nor had the owner any intention to bring it in. It's purely a money making excerice for the plants.

It's another european directive is it not,

rangler1 wrote: »

Just realised I put this in the weather forum so I'll copy and paste it here
53 lambs at the factory today, clean lamb policy started on Tuesday, ours were held overnight for being dirty, their KO will be rubbish, off feed since 4oc yesterday, and supposed to be killed tomorrow morning ....maybe !!!! they tell me they fed them this evening,
Ours were clean but wet and apparently the lot they were loaded with at the depot were in sh.., It'd sicken you, some public servant dreaming up even more rules...thank God I'm getting out.
Rant over

This was not a public service idea...the big plants adopted this...i killed sheep in a smaller plant last year and no clean sheep policy nor had the owner any intention to bring it in. It's purely a money making excerice for the plants.

tomwaterford

Whatll lads do that used fatten on stubbles etc??

Jesus I seen sheep in terrible conditions being gathered for the lorry before

,even recall getting docked 80c a lamb for shearing few years ago (which tbf they were bad & had no complaints, straight outta an old fashioned cow house to the trailer)

razor8 wrote: »

That's crazy stuff. Why the idea of holding them?

They're hoping they'll dry overnight, I'd say this clean lamb policy is going to be some headache for a while anyway
If I was staying with the same number of sheep I'd have to be looking at a nearer processor, they're too long in the lorry sometimes, our's can be loaded sometimes at 5.30am and I've seen them not unloaded till after lunch some days.
Mine were sopping wet after wednesday and still wet this morning even though they were in since 4 yesterday evening andt then they were mixed with dirty sheep in the lorry apparently this morning which are also held back as well.
I even set up the shears and dagged them on Tuesday as I knew were getting more strict from Tuesday.......TBH There has been some dirty batches on the groups loads lately since the weather got bad so maybe today was just a shot across the bough, some people just bring them straight in out of the field.

razor8

rangler1 wrote: »

Just realised I put this in the weather forum so I'll copy and paste it here
53 lambs at the factory today, clean lamb policy started on Tuesday, ours were held overnight for being dirty, their KO will be rubbish, off feed since 4oc yesterday, and supposed to be killed tomorrow morning ....maybe !!!! they tell me they fed them this evening,
Ours were clean but wet and apparently the lot they were loaded with at the depot were in sh.., It'd sicken you, some public servant dreaming up even more rules...thank God I'm getting out.
Rant over

That's crazy stuff. Why the idea of holding them?