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The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

Sonny678

Firstly Congratulations to the Dubs. Dublin are the team of the decade. One of the All time great teams. Their achievements will go down in the history books. They are a credit to their county and clubs. This is a golden era for Dublin football.

However there those seem to be allot of people trying to rewrite history and downplay Kerrys 75 to 86 achievements. In order to prove Dublin are the best. I think allot of supporters who started following the game in the last 10 or 15 years are pushing this idea that Dublin are the greatest. They probaly dont know the achievements of Down or past Cavan teams. And never heard of Downs Sean O Neill or Cavans Higgins.

However the facts do not back this up. By saying the facts is not downgrading Dublins wins. They have achieved greatness. But facts are facts.
1 Kerry team of 70s and 80s. Did three great things 1 Win All.Ireland in 1975 with one of the youngest teams ever to win Sam ? by beating one of the greatest teams ever..2 They won a 4 in a row between 78 to 81. 3 They won 3 in a row 84 85 86.

They also had some of the greatest players of all time playing in their chosen positions. This Dublin team have one player playing that could be said to be the best ever in his position. Eg Stephen Cluxton is the greatest goalkeeper ever. Kerry had Jack O Se the greatest midfielder ever and possibly the greatest footballer ever. They had Pat Spillane the greatest number 12 in the history of the game . And Mickey Sheedy the greatest number 15 in the history of the game. They also had Paudi O Se possibly the greatest number 5 ever. While John O Keefe Ogie Moran Ger Power John Egan Bomber Liston are some of the greatest players of the modern era.

Kerry had to face tougher opposition then Dublin. Kerry had to beat one of the greatest teams ever, the Dublin team 74 -77. This Dublin have not faced an All time great team. That is a fact. Also every year Kerry faced an excellent Cork team who were a top Division 1 team and where regularly in the top 3 in country. Dublin have not had to face top Division 1 team in their provience since the early noughties. Also in ther 70s you had very good Meath and Armagh teams.

In the west you had a brillant Roscomon team ,one of the greatst teams to come west of the Shannon in the last 50 years. A brillant defence backboned by the Great Harry Keegan and at midfield one of the greatest talent to ever cross the Shannon , the late great Dermot Earley senior. That Roscomon team won 5 Connachts and Roscommons first league and gave the greatest team ever one of their toughest finals. You also had a brillant Offaly team led by the most naturally talented footballer ever, Matt Connor. Offaly 82 was a brillant team. In the mid 80s Tyrone and Monaghan had two excellent teams. Which in any other era would have won an All Ireland. The Monaghan team 85 is Monaghans greatest team ever. And the Tyrone 84- 86 was up to that point Tyrone greatst team ever led by warriors like Donaghy John Lynch Eugene McKenna and Frank McGuigan. That team was a much superior outfit to the current Tyrone team. Would any current footballer be as brillant as the great Frank McGuigan.

In comparison Dublin have been great but so many counties are hitting record low levels.

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Irellevant

naughtb4 wrote: »

Yes becasue only Dublin can play weaker counties through the back door :rolleyes::rolleyes: before they just wouldnt have played the extra game, if anything its tougher

Tyrone, Kerry and Mayo will all be massive competition next year

I said good teams not singularly Dublin I'm a fan of the system aswell because cork teams throughout the decade who had all Ireland's in them never could get them because they could never beat Kerry and leave Munster and yeah jeez I hope they get better apart from a good 3 games this years championship was dire

TrueGael

blanch152 wrote: »

https://extra.ie/sport/gaa/split-dublin-no-cork-instead

This is a very interesting take on it, that examines playing population rather than population per se.

"When it comes to the numbers game, the actual ‘playing population’ is a far more relevant statistic than simply quoting a county’s population, especially when you look at the number of adult football teams registered in 2016.

(1) Cork – 263 (adult football teams registered), (2) Dublin – 168, (3) Kerry – 121, (4) Meath – 110, (5) Galway – 108, (6) Tyrone – 105, (7) Kildare – 90, (8) Mayo – 84."

So Dublin are twice Mayo's size in terms of adult football teams, but the real underperformers are firstly Cork, and then Meath.

This is a total diversion from the reality of the situation, Cork has 1 superclub (Nemo) and a load of tiny rural clubs who can barely field teams at the respective age grades , Dublin has bucketloads of superclubs who have the capacity to field between 80 and 100 teams from Underage up to Senior

Also Cork has 5 Full Time Coaches not 80 so they can't just mass produce elite players off a production line just like that

ThunbergsAreGo

Irellevant wrote: »

I said good teams not singularly Dublin I'm a fan of the system aswell because cork teams throughout the decade who had all Ireland's in them never could get them because they could never beat Kerry and leave Munster and yeah jeez I hope they get better apart from a good 3 games this years championship was dire

I think thats what makes it tougher, before if three of the best teams in the country were in Ulster Kerry would only play one of them, with the qualifiers you tend to get the best teams in the last 4, not the singularly best team in each Province

TrueGael

No Ulster Winner beat the Leinster or Munster Champions between 1968 and 1990 in the AI Series

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Will you stop nitpicking what I'm saying . I give 10 or 15 reasons to say why GG was a great talent eg being a top class wing back, wing forward and full forward. I cannot think of any player in the last 50 years who excelled in all these positions in provincial finals and All Ireland finals and semi finals. Kerrys Ger Power was a top class wing back and wing forward. But GG moving from outfield to full forward. And turning his back to goals for a player whose great strenght was attacking with power and pace coming onto the ball. Displayed his versatility.

Geraghty was not best wing forward I ever . The three best I ever saw were in this order 1 Pat Spillane 2 Michael Donnellan 3 Paul Flynn 4 Brian Dooher.
All could have been brillant wing backs. With the exception of Pat Spillane . I don't know the above all time great wing forwards would have been effective at full forward and win All Irelands in each of these positions . Maybe they would have. We will never know. But we can say about Spillane, Donnellan, Flynn and Dooher was they were all the best wings forwards ever. And all better in Gerathy in the wing forward position.

But for Geraghty to go from wing back to wing forward to full forward. And excell in each position and become the best in the country in each position . ( Positions which have different traits.). Is sign of his talent. And is pretty unique. I cannot think of any other player doing this.

And it shows you how I much rate Diarmaid Connolly ( the most talented footballer of his generation) when he minds me so much of Geraghty.

James McCarthy has played in most of those positions this year alone.

Cian O'Sullivan has played in nearly every line for Dublin.

Is Peter Harte a half-back or a half-forward?

Powerhouse

blanch152 wrote: »

https://extra.ie/sport/gaa/split-dublin-no-cork-instead

This is a very interesting take on it, that examines playing population rather than population per se.

"When it comes to the numbers game, the actual ‘playing population’ is a far more relevant statistic than simply quoting a county’s population, especially when you look at the number of adult football teams registered in 2016.

(1) Cork – 263 (adult football teams registered), (2) Dublin – 168, (3) Kerry – 121, (4) Meath – 110, (5) Galway – 108, (6) Tyrone – 105, (7) Kildare – 90, (8) Mayo – 84."

So Dublin are twice Mayo's size in terms of adult football teams, but the real underperformers are firstly Cork, and then Meath.

Not sure the number of registered clubs can be taken as a reliable way of comparing. Take Cork, for example, many of the registered clubs would be hurling clubs in reality. In places like Kerry and Mayo the allegiance of the overwhelming majority of clubs will be to football. Also in Cork some football clubs are in incredibly remote and sparsely populated areas like Ailihies which is further from Cork city than Limerick is. The idea that such clubs are producing significant numbers for county teams is untenable.

Powerhouse

Irellevant wrote: »

I said good teams not singularly Dublin I'm a fan of the system aswell because cork teams throughout the decade who had all Ireland's in them never could get them because they could never beat Kerry and leave Munster and yeah jeez I hope they get better apart from a good 3 games this years championship was dire

I think the point about Cork, while commonly held, is exaggerated. Cork have won 20 Munster championships in the last half-century (well since 1966 inclusive) and only won the All Ireland 4 times. Not a strike rate that vindicates the idea of Cork as "often the second best team in Ireland" especially when you factor in the reality that they have nearly a guaranteed place in the last 12 of the championship since the back door came in.

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

This is a very interesting take on it, that examines playing population rather than population per se.

blanch152 wrote:

"When it comes to the numbers game, the actual â€˜playing populationâ€™ is a far more relevant statistic than simply quoting a countyâ€™s population, especially when you look at the number of adult football teams registered in 2016.

blanch152 wrote:

(1) Cork â€“ 263 (adult football teams registered), (2) Dublin â€“ 168, (3) Kerry â€“ 121, (4) Meath â€“ 110, (5) Galway â€“ 108, (6) Tyrone â€“ 105, (7) Kildare â€“ 90, (8) Mayo â€“ 84."

blanch152 wrote:

So Dublin are twice Mayo's size in terms of adult football teams, but the real underperformers are firstly Cork, and then Meath.

Wicklow who have great love for football, have a strong club scene and many clubs and big population . But have never won a provicial title and in recent years won their first match in Croker ever.

Louth and Wicklow both counties with a love of football, who have a strong football scene and many clubs and a big population . But since 1950s , both counties have being largely unsucessful.

Clubs numbers and population can be contradictory evidence. But Dublins population is so big it cannot be ignored as a factor. For example any of the super big clubs in Dublin would have higher playing numbers in their club then the whole of county Leitrims playing numbers .

Firstly you can get a stat to back up any arguement. Stats, analysis and evidence is the best way to decide on a question.

Thorough out 80s and 90s agmost Dublin , supporters from other counties and the general GAA community the consensus was the Dublin were underachieving.

Dublin won
1 All Ireland In the 40s,
1 All Ireland in the 50s,
1 All Ireland in the 60s,
3 All Ireland in the 70s
1 All Ireland In the 80s
1 All Ireland In 90s
0 All Ireland in the 00s

No All Ireland final appearances for 16 years ( 1995 to 2011) . Only 2 All Irelands in 35 years ( 1983 and 1995) and no minor title in over 25 years . All the above data will strongly indicate Dublin with all the resources and advantages until this decade where underachieving for decades.

This decade is the decade Dublin are now reaching their true potential and actually probaly now overachieving.

If you look at the evidence and information it would not be exaggeration to say Meath and Down are two counties that have overachieved.

The top 5 counties ever are
1 Kerry
2 Dublin
3 Galway
4 Cork
5 Meath .
The most sucessful counties in the last 80 years are
1 Kerry
2 Dublin
3 Meath
4 Cork
5 Galway.
The most sucessful counties in the last 40 years are
1 Kerry
2 Dublin
3 Meath
4 Cork.

The two counties that stands out of gaelics top 5 or 6 are Meath and Down. Kerry are an extraordinary GAA county . But it is no surprise that Dublin Cork and Galway are in the top 5. All are the three most famous , most powerful, most iconic counties in the country. They are centres of social, economic and cultural activity. Kerry is also one of most iconic counties. From writers to its majestic landscape.
You could say Ireland top 4 counties in terms of social economic and cultural activity would be Dublin Cork Galway and Kerry.

Meath and Down are average north east counties. They don't stand out. But in football terms, they both do. When you compare their record to top counties. And their record to similar neighbouring counties. Both Meath and Down have overachieved on a grade scale in gaelic football terms.

For example Kildare and Meath are very similar counties. Landscape, town size and even accent all similar. Yet in the last 90 years, Meath have played in 15 senior All Ireland finals. Kildare have played in 1 . Meath have won 7 div 1 national league titles. Kildare have 0 div 1 national league titles. Down have 5 titles. Neighbouring county Armagh have 1 title.

Particularly in the 80s and 90s, Meath replaced Kerry for a 15 years period as Irelands top county. During this period Meath after Kerry and Dublin , Meath had one of the most sucessful periods in the history of the game. Meath won 4 All Irelands in 12 years. And if you include replays, Meath played in 9 senior All Ireland finals 14 years. Only Galway between 1956 and 1966 with 4 All Irelands, and Cavan with 4 in the 40s and 50s and Wexford from 1914 to 1918 had such sucess outside the big two of kerry v Dublin.

However, this decade Meath are going through their worst decade since the 1930s. And many for Dubs this might be a happy thought. But Meath are showing all the characteristics that Cavan had after 40s and 50s. Meath could become the new Cavan.

Every team outside the big two who had Meaths similar sucess. That sucessful period was followed up with decades of little little sucess. Wexford have never reached the heights of the 4 in a row years. Cavan have never reached the heights of the 40s and 50s again. And it took Galway 32 years in 1998 before they won Sam again after their most sucessful period from 56 to 66.

Meath though have had a capacity in the past to come from nowhere and knock Dublin from their perch. And then become the dominate force in leinster football. This has happened on numerous occasions. But a Dublin are so strong and Meath are so weak. There is no evidence to say this will happen again.

For Meath to do that they need great players , a best of footballer in Ireland type of figure like Jack Quinn and Colm O Rourke to emerge again . And need another great manager like Sean Boylan Fr. Tully and Peter McDermont to emerge on the scene again. Basically Andy McEntee has to be another Sean Boylan or Meaths version of Jimmy McGuiness.

The probality is Meath could now go decades without it sucess. Maybe the old stubborn Meath spirit can again emerge and produce and another great Meath team will mushroom over night. But again there is no concrete evidence to say the above . Meath simply put are in trouble. Hopefully not for the sake of the leinster championship. But there are enough warning sign to indicate the above might be true.

Powerhouse

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

It's incredible that Down never played Galway in that era. I assume they met in the league though?

They met in the All Ireland semi finals of 1959, '65 and '68 (and '71 as well). All bar 1968 were won by Galway.

blanch152

Powerhouse wrote: »

Not sure the number of registered clubs can be taken as a reliable way of comparing. Take Cork, for example, many of the registered clubs would be hurling clubs in reality. In places like Kerry and Mayo the allegiance of the overwhelming majority of clubs will be to football. Also in Cork some football clubs are in incredibly remote and sparsely populated areas like Ailihies which is further from Cork city than Limerick is. The idea that such clubs are producing significant numbers for county teams is untenable.

The data used in the article was registered adult football teams.

It includes junior and intermediate teams as well. It doesn't strike me as unusual. Anyone involved in a Dublin club will tell you that it is all very well to have 50-60 kids playing U-12 and that the funding has been great for participation at that level, but that by the time it hits senior, the regular playing time available for soccer teams takes over and many players leave (and to other sports as well).

The money from the government has been used to the benefit of children, not for the senior squad, with a secondary benefit of giving an excuse to every losing senior inter-county team in the rest of the country.

Sonny678

Sorry powerhouse I got that wrong. Thanks for clarifying that.

What I meant to say was that supporters said to me who were around at the time. Was they never met when both teams were at their real peak eg Down 60 61 team at their peak never played Galway 64 65 66 team at their peak.

The great question during the era and since asked was who was the team of the 60s was it Galway 64 65 66 or Down 60 61.
A modern day similar football question is who was the best team of the noughties was it Tyrone 0 3 05 08 or kerry 00 04 06 07 09.
For me it was Tyrone but it's a hard one to call.

TrueGael

Wrong again, with Croke Park paying for all the top quality coaching it allows the AIG money as well as the numerous other sponsors be spent on the Senior Setup which enables all the perks that nobody else gets or could even dream of getting

Everyone else has to allocate very limited resources between the present and the future

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

The top 5 counties ever are
1 Kerry
2 Dublin
3 Galway
4 Cork
5 Meath .
The most sucessful counties in the last 80 years are
1 Kerry
2 Dublin
3 Meath
4 Cork
5 Galway.
The most sucessful counties in the last 40 years are
1 Kerry
2 Dublin
3 Meath
4 Cork.

.

Those statistics only reinforce the point made in the article. The top 5 counties, by number of adult football teams registered are, Cork, Dublin, Kerry, Meath and Galway as I said in my post.

Meath aren't overachieving - Mayo are - but your list consists of just those 5 teams I mentioned. All those 5 teams should be expected to challenge every decade. This decade Meath are underperforming. Living in Blanchardstown, I know that there are kids who have gone to clubs in Ratoath, Dunboyne and Dunshaughlin, and given up because of the poor quality of organisation, both training and in fixtures and are playing for clubs in the Blanchardstown area. Meath really need to look at how they organise things.

In saying this, I believe that there is a case for extra central money to Louth, Kildare, Meath and Wicklow for juvenile training, not to improve the senior team, but, as in Dublin, to improve participation rates in sport for kids.

Powerhouse

blanch152 wrote: »

The data used in the article was registered adult football teams.

It includes junior and intermediate teams as well. It doesn't strike me as unusual. Anyone involved in a Dublin club will tell you that it is all very well to have 50-60 kids playing U-12 and that the funding has been great for participation at that level, but that by the time it hits senior, the regular playing time available for soccer teams takes over and many players leave (and to other sports as well).

The money from the government has been used to the benefit of children, not for the senior squad, with a secondary benefit of giving an excuse to every losing senior inter-county team in the rest of the country.

The point about playing numbers in Dublin and urban centres generally is exactly what I made here a few days ago. The pressure to hold onto players is enormous. The good ones are always the ones more likely to be good at other sports too. The apparent numerical advantage of the teams with large urban centres often bears little reality to what happens on the ground. In some ways a true test of population as an advantage is the minor grade where Dublin should, assuming all things to be equal, benefit from having a greater pick.

At senior level a county like Kerry or Mayo could get 8-10 from a player at senior level which offsets population disadvantage. At minor that is not an issue. Broadly speaking a county has to shuffle the pack constantly and if population is really a big advantage it should be apparent at minor level. That's the theory. The reality: Kerry have won the last four minor titles, Dublin have won one in 33 years which is less than eight other counties not including Kerry. It has been suggested that Dublin are arguably overachieving at senior level and reference to the minor grade would seem to substantiate that though of course the link between minor and senior success is far from solid as borne out by history.

Sonny678

James Mcarthy and Cian Sullivan are two brillant footballers. Both underrated. So is Harte
But Mcarthy along with lee keegan for me have been the 2 best wing backs in this decade. A smashing player and does not get the credit he deserves. One of the best number 5s I have ever seen play the game. Right up their with Dublins Paul Curran.

Yes McCarthy and Sullivan are versatile. Many players are versatile. But what I'm trying to say is did Mcarthy play full forward all year long and win the All Ireland in that position and an All star in that position full forward. Did he play wing forward for a couple of seasons. And win an All Ireland in that position.

Mcarthy can play wing back , midfield and wing forward. But could he be the best full forward in Ireland for two or three years that's what Geraghty did.
Again I cannot think of 1 player who was a top wing back for a couple of seasons then a top wing forward for a couple of season and the difficult one , a top full forward for a couple of seasons. Winning All stars in different position and winnng and at time captaining his county to provincial and All Ireland sucess. I think it would be wrong to say GG was not a great talent.

Powerhouse

Sonny678 wrote: »

Sorry powerhouse I got that wrong. Thanks for clarifying that.

What I meant to say what was said to by supporters to me who around of the time. Was they never met when both teams a were at their real peak eg Down 60 61 team at their peak never played Galway 64 65 66 team at their peak.

The great question during the era and since asked was who was the team of the 60s was it Galway 64 65 66 or Down 60 61
A modern day similar football question is who was the best team of the noughties was it Tyrone 0 3 05 08 or kerry 00 04 06 07 09.
For me it was Tyrone but it's a hard one to call.

It is hard to argue against Tyrone's head to head record against Kerry in that era. Then also have regard for the fact that Ulster was very competitive in those years. I think Kerry needed at least one win against them to sway that argument. Also the idea that Kerry 2000 and 2009 were the same team is faulty. Only three players lasted that particular course. There was far more of a continuum in the case of Tyrone. I know people get very hung up on multiple titles but leaving aside whatever else they achieved I don't think I saw a better team in that decade than the Tyrone which won the 2005 final. I know styles have changed somewhat but they would ask serious questions of the current Dublin team.

As for the 1960s I am not suggesting that Galway were better than Down as I know the latter were incredibly rated by those who saw them, but it is worth noting that Galway beat the defending champions Kerry in the 1963 semi final and lost the final by just two. Counter factual history is always problematic but on paper at least Galway were almost a four in a row team.

Sonny678

blanch152 wrote:

Meath aren't overachieving - Mayo are - but your list consists of just those 5 teams I mentioned. All those 5 teams should be expected to challenge every decade. This decade Meath are underperforming. Living in Blanchardstown, I know that there are kids who have gone to clubs in Ratoath, Dunboyne and Dunshaughlin, and given up because of the poor quality of organisation, both training and in fixtures and are playing for clubs in the Blanchardstown area. Meath really need to look at how they organise things.

Your right Blanch. Are structure and organisation is poor. And now we are paying for it. Worst decade since 1930s. Our underage systems our not good enough. Their has been work done and with the under 17 team winning leinster this year and the minors hammering Dublin last year , there is signs of improvement.

But your are 100% right. We have a problem keeping players. One stat explain it all at underage. We have not won 1 under 21 title in 16 years. We won 4 leinster under 21 titles and an All Ireland under 21 in the 90s. We were top county at under 21 level 90s. Now I would say we have been in the bottom 3 or 4. And Kildare and Dublin underage teams up to last year were wiping the floor with us.

Our whole underage set up was not fit for purpose. Their has been improvements. But as the example you showed it's still not enough.

Resources need to be addressed also
Dublin have up to 50 full time pro coach's. Meath have 3 . Kildare have 4. 12 leinster titles in 13 years could be the norm. If something doesnt change soon.

Finally not to accept Meath have been very sucessful county and overachieved I think is just factually wrong.

Sonny678

Powerhouse wrote:

As for the 1960s I am not suggesting that Galway were better than Down as I know the latter were incredibly rated by those who saw them, but it is worth noting that Galway beat the defending champions Kerry in the 1963 semi final and list the final by just two. Counter factual history is always problematic but on paper at least Galway were almost a four in a row team.

My grandad always maintained 64 65 66 team was the best he ever saw play the game. And anyone from that era I have talked to placed Galway ahead of Down.
On paper it looks very even. Both won 3 All Irelands. Both defeated Kerry twice. Galway defeated Kerry in 63 when they were All Ireland champions also. And Down beat Kerry in 68. And that Kerry of Mick Dwyer and Mick O Connell won the double in 1969 and 1970. I don't know.
It's a tough one to call.

But I would say Down winning from the 6th counties for the first time is a great achievement . And how Down revolutionised the game eg Breaking ball at midfield, possession football, players not playing in their position. They had a massive impact on the way the game was played. But it is a tough one call who was the best.

Sonny678

Yes Mayo have been overachieving for 20 years. But Meath overachieved for 70 or 80 years.
In that period only kerry and Dublin were more sucessful.
Explain to me how counties like Kildare very similar population, very similar landscapes, very similar club size . The difference in Meath and Kildare in football terms.
Leaving Dublin to 1 side and place Meath beside all their neighbouring counties all strong football counties what those this below indicate. For part Ireland Meath comes from could they have overachieved.

(These are counties that border Meath or in the provience of leinster , leaving out Dublin. )

1 Meath have played 15 senior finals in 80 years
Kildare have played in 1 senior final in near 80 years
Kildare 0 div 1 league titles
Meath 7 div league 1 titles
Kildare 0 minor All Ireland
Meath 3 minor All Ireland

2 Cavan haven't won an All Ireland in 70 years and have 1 Ulster title in 45 years.

3 Monaghan have never won All Ireland title. Monaghan last final appearance was 80 years.

4 Westmeath have only won 1 provicial title.

5 Offaly have won 1 leinster title in 35 years. Meath have won 9 leinster titles in the same period.

6 longford have won 1 leinster title near 50 years ago.

7 Laos have never won an All Ireland and haven't played in an All Ireland final in near 80 years. Only 1 leinster title in over 50 years.

8 Wicklow have never won a leinster title.

9 Louth have not won an All Ireland or leinster title in 60 years . Only 1 leinster final appearance in 60 years.

10 Wexford have not won a leinster title in 70 years

11 Carlow haven't won a leinster tile in 70 years.

How can you not say that Meath have not overachieved when you look at such great football area. With great supporters throughout leinster. But there is an obvious gap between Meath Dublin and the rest . Dublin should be a top county . There's no reason why Meath should have been in comparison to Dublin. To say Meath have not overachieved in football terms would be petty not accept if you look at all the info and data.

Powerhouse

Sonny678 wrote: »

My grandad always maintained 64 65 66 team was the best he ever saw play the game. And anyone from that era I have talked to placed Galway ahead of Down.
On paper it looks very even. Both won 3 All Irelands. Both defeated Kerry twice. Galway defeated Kerry in 63 when they were All Ireland champions also. And Down beat Kerry in 68. And that Kerry of Mick Dwyer and Mick O Connell won the double in 1969 and 1970. I don't know.
It's a tough one to call.

But I would say Down winning from the 6th counties for the first time is a great achievement . And how Down revolutionised the game eg Breaking ball at midfield, possession football, players not playing in their position. They had a massive impact on the way the game was played. But it is a tough one call who was the best.

Down actually beat Kerry three times, in two finals and in the 1961 semi. It is maybe noteworthy that each time they beat Kerry the Kingdom won the title either the year before or the year after which I think adds some further lustre to Down"s achievements as they were beating an obviously good team.

TrueGael

Powerhouse wrote: »

The point about playing numbers in Dublin and urban centres generally is exactly what I made here a few days ago. The pressure to hold onto players is enormous. The good ones are always the ones more likely to be good at other sports too. The apparent numerical advantage of the teams with large urban centres often bears little reality to what happens on the ground. In some ways a true test of population as an advantage is the minor grade where Dublin should, assuming all things to be equal, benefit from having a greater pick.

At senior level a county like Kerry or Mayo could get 8-10 from a player at senior level which offsets population disadvantage. At minor that is not an issue. Broadly speaking a county has to shuffle the pack constantly and if population is really a big advantage it should be apparent at minor level. That's the theory. The reality: Kerry have won the last four minor titles, Dublin have won one in 33 years which is less than eight other counties not including Kerry. It has been suggested that Dublin are arguably overachieving at senior level and reference to the minor grade would seem to substantiate that though of course the link between minor and senior success is far from solid as borne out by history.

Minor has absolute zero relevance to Senior at IC level - Laois would have won a lot more if it did

Also Competing Sports do exist in other wise counties despite what ye may believe. Clubs in Mayo, Kerry and all along the Western Seaboard can barely field 1 Senior Club team and have to amalgamate at Underage Level in some cases up to 3/4 different clubs

While Dublin population soaring to 1.7m by 2030 and 2m by 2040 and yet people on here will tell you they shouldn't be split, no matter what damage is done to Football Championship as a worthwhile competition

Sonny678

For me Down 60 61 are the second greatest team. Only kerry 75 -86. Down a team that changed the face of football. Where football pioneers. And of course beating a brillant Kerry team in 2 finals. When they had just won their first Ulster title in 59.

Also their domination of a Ulster football in the 60s is hugely impressed. Remeber up to 1959. Cavan were seen as almost unbeatable. Cavan had a very good team in the 60s. Many at the time believed Cavan of the 60s was good enough to win an All Ireland. So to end Cavan domination. And then dominate Cavan for the decade was some going.
Saying that Mayo had a strong team on the 60s. Galway had strong opponents west of the Shannon also.

In Meath we met both in 66. We hammerd Down by 10 points in the semi final in 66 and Kerry in 01 by 15 points But we're comfortably beaten by Galway in the final.in 66 and 01..The similarities of Meaths 1966 and 2001 seasons r very very similar. Both years hammerd great teams in the semi final . Then Galways beat us comfortably in both finals. It's gas way the history repeats itself .
We won 67. And were the dominant team in leinster at time. Offaly had a very good team also. It was first quality team to come from Offaly. And into 70s they became top dogs in leinster. And became probaly the most underrated team to ever win a double All Ireland. The 71 72 Offaly team is one of the greatest teams to come out of leinster . And the team is completely underrated. A brillant team. Defeated Kerry in 72 final by 9 points.

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

For me one thing Dublin could never handle was a strong Meath team.

That's similar to me saying that Meath can't handle a strong Dublin, Kerry, Cork or Galway team. Of course Dublin couldn't handle a team that beat them.

However a strong Kerry Team will on average be more successful than a strong Meath team. Again some of the Kerry players have 8 AIs. County Meath has 7 in total.

I'll dig into a strong Kerry team vs Meath below

Have Dublin never beaten a strong Meath team? If so would that make most of Meath's teams that won in Leinster, strong ?

Yet again when we look into that, we see that as provincial champions Meath are more likely to lose an AI final yet teams like Kerry and Dublin are more likely to win one

So the strong Meath teams that win in Leinster on average and relatively speaking don't go on to win the AI. Where as Dublin are nearly 50 50 on that one.

Possibly one thing favouring Dublin and Kerry in that stat is that they don't have to play themselves (yet

).

So a strong Meath team would have to play and beat Dublin and then afterwards on the balance of things possibly have to beat a decent Kerry team too making it a tough route to the final.
Alternatively, avoid Kerry, or better still if Kerry didn't get out of Munster at all.

For example this year Mayo needed to beat Dublin and Kerry.

Yet if we look at the winning years that we can remember for Meath
1987, 1988, 1996, 1999

Meath were all Ireland winners but correct me if I'm wrong but in 87,88 Kerry were rebuilding and Cork were Munster champions, in 1999 it was Cork again
1996 Kerry were Munster champions but Mayo knocked them out (FFS another one Mayo!!!)

So am I correct in saying that in the last 4 AI wins for Meath they never had to play and beat Kerry?
Kerry were out of the equation. In only 1 in 4 did Meath beat a team that was good enough to beat a Munster championship Kerry team along the way, Mayo.

And finally for the record I don't think D Connelly is the best Dublin player I've ever seen, particularly on this team.

I don't think this Dublin team is the best team ever. I've never made either point.

I remember a Kerry team that had lads that strung two four in a rows together and can't for the life of me make a case for a team with lads with 5 being better.

I never saw the other great teams play and as a result I can't comment on the best team ever.

I wouldn't have an issue with you saying Geraghty was better than Connelly

I would contest the McCarthy claim though. Geraghty may have been more versatile but that is not the measure of it imo. I remember McCarthy at 21 marking Paul Galvin in 2011 (a fantastic player and better than Geraghty IMO and still relatively young) it was a great battle.
In 2013 when Mayo had Dublin on the ropes, McCarthy blocked Keegans goal attempt.
He won the last ball in 2013, he turned over the Mayo midfield this year when the game was in the melting pot to win the game for Dublin. He has 5 All Irelands and is IMO a fantastic team player, and a decent man outside of football too

Sonny678

Stoner
The comment about Dublin and a strong Meath team was said more tongue in cheek.

There always has been undercurrent in GAA world to downplayed or downgrades Meaths achievements. Mayo were robbed in 96. So were Cork in 88. Tyrone think they had a better team in 96. And it goes on. When Meath win a tough All Ireland in 88 it was crime against humanity. When Dublin won all.Ireland with 12 men pretending to Conor Mcgregor in the first cage fight ever they were named 12 apostles.

When counties lose to Dublin or Kerry or top 3 in hurling they accept the defeat. When teams lose to Meath or Clare 97 or Tyrone 03 05 ( puke football) they look for excuses . Thinking whats so special about Meath, a bog standard Midlands county. Instead of realising and been fair that if a county plays 9 finals in 14 years in the 80s and 90s it must have some good players and a good manager.

I keep saying over and over If u take Meaths record after Kerry and Dublin. I keep saying this over and over again after Kerry and Dublin.. Meaths record stands up very well against the other 29 counties. Of course every counties record against Kerry and Dublin can be patchy in parts. Some are very poor. Galway havent beaten Dublin in 90 years and kerry in over 50 years in the championship.

But Meaths record against Dublin is still the best by mile in the country eg 9 wins and 5 draws in 35 years. Next best is kerry O draws with 5 wins. And next best in leinster is Kildare with 2 and no draws. That's a stat which is the most important stat. Remeber how you felt when Donegal won in 92 and 14 v Dublin. How hard it is to beat Dublin. They are the hardest team to beat in gaelic football. Yet Meath were 14 times undefeated v the Dubs in the championship in an 18 year period. That's not bad going.

We have dominated Dublin in the championship ( 4 or 5 victories in a row in 5 or 6 years in the chamouinship) in the 1940s 1950s 1960s 1980s 1990s. That is unprecedented and unique in gaelic football. The only other time a county in leinster other Meath had a kind version of domination v Dubs in the last 80 years. Where Offaly s 3 victories v Dublin in early 80s. I can put the records of leinster team v Dublin up again. And Meaths record stands alone.
One stat that is revealing the last time a leinster manager other then Meath managed a leinster team to victory over Dublin was in 1982 Eugene McGee and Offaly. In the last 35 years Dublin have only beaten 4 times in the leinster championship by teams. Kildare twice Laois once and Westmeath once. All these were managed by Kerry men. Meath in the same period had 9 wins and 5 draws.

So Dublin have lost in the championship in the last 35 years in leinster 13 times and 5 draws. 13 of those 9 wins were Meath wins v the Dubs. And all the draws were for Meath. Come on give us some credit. If Meaths record is crap v Dublin. Well.what would you consider everyone elses in leinster is.

If Meath and Offaly won no leinster titles in the 70s 80s and 90s and had a similar record to all.other counties. Dublin would have won 28 leinster titles in a row between between 1968 to 1998. 68 longford where champions and Kildare in 98. No Meath or Offaly titles meant Dublin would have 28 in a row leinster title. And people think 12 out of 13 titles.

(If you go further back. If you look at the last 55 ot 56 years in leinster. If you take Offaly and Meath out of the equation. With only Kildare winning 2 titles and Laois longford and Westmeath winning 1 each and the rest divided between Dublin 29 Meath 13 and Offaly 9. Dublin could have won 48 or so of the last 55 or 56 leinster titles if Meath and Offaly were taking out.)

Regards the Kingdom Meath have one best of the records v Kerry in the country.

1 We are 1 of the few counties to beat Kerry in a final. We defeated kerry in a final 50 years before Tyrone .Only a very few handful of counties have achieved this. We defeated a brillant Kerry team by 6 points in 1954 All Ireland final . Kerry were the reigning All.Ireland champions and they won All Ireland in 1953 and 1955. So that's very good Kerry Meath defeated.

2 Kerrys worst defeat in 130 years of championship was in the 2001 All Ireland semi final v Meath. We won by 15 points against a Kerry team that had Maurice Fitzgerald Tomas O Se Dara O Se Tomas Sullivan Seamus Moyihan Dara Cinnede John Crowley and Mike Frank Russell. It was also one of Kerrys lowest scores ever. Kerry scored 5 points. Meath 2-14 Kerry 0-5.

3 Between 1986 and 2001. Meath did not meet at senior level. But they did meet in alot of minor under 21 and junior finals in the period. In total there was 8 games between kerry and Meath mostly at underage (7 games underage 1 junior) level during the period. Meath had 8 victories had no loses. Pat Spillane referred to it in his Sunday World column after 2001 drubbing saying Meath were now a bogey team of sorts for Kerry over all grades in the last 15 years.

In comparison to other counties we have good record v Kerry. An All Ireland win v great Kerry team and their worst defeat ever in their history is not bad against the kingpins the Brazil of gaelic football.

Yoy say Meath did not have to play kerry in 87 88. ( Neither did Donegal in 92) but Meath did have beat the greatst Cork team ever. The greatest team to come out of Munster other then kerry.

Meath are always downgraded and downplayed their achievements . While say counties like Kildare and Dublin have hype and can be overated.I can see even over this board the reluctance of many people to acknowledge Meaths achievements. Its very common trait I have found agmost certain sections of GAA communities eg 8 bordering counties, Cork ( never forgave for 87 88 and 99) Dublin never forgave ( I would be hear all night if I had to talk about all the games Meath defeated Dublin ) Mayo ( never forgave us for 96) and Ulster counties ( Tyrone never forgave us for 96 Armagh for 99 and Donegal for 90, 14 All Ireland semi final victories and no losses v Ulster opposition would be a thorn in Ulster sides memories v Meath).

Sonny678

This is shows how dominant Dublin have been in leinster football. They have an aura in leinster football for decades. Teams are beaten before they even enter the field v Dublin for decades.

Leinster teams record v Dublin in leinster championship

Kildare have only beaten Dublin twice in 45 years

Offaly have not beaten Dublin in 35 years.

Laois have beaten Dublin once in 35 years

Louth haven't not beaten Dublin in 40 years

Westmeath have beaten Dublin twice in 130 years

Wexford have not beaten Dublin in 70 years

Wicklow have not beaten Dublin in 70 years their only victory

Carlow have not beaten Dublin in nearly 80 years

Longford have not beaten Dublin in nearly 50 years

Kilkenny have never beaten Dublin

Meath have beaten Dublin 9 times and drawn 5 times in the last 35 years in the championship

( Also there is 2 national league division 1 finals victories v the Dubs for Meath) So that brings Meath up to 11 wins and 5 draws. 16 undefeated games v Dublin in Croke Park in over 3 decades and more for us Royals)

ThunbergsAreGo

Sonny678 wrote: »

This is shows how dominant Dublin have been in leinster football. They have an aura in leinster football for decades. Teams are beaten before they even enter the field v Dublin for decades.

Leinster teams record v Dublin in leinster championship

Kildare have only beaten Dublin twice in 45 years

Offaly have not beaten Dublin in 35 years.

Laois have beaten Dublin once in 35 years

Louth haven't not beaten Dublin in 40 years

Westmeath have beaten Dublin twice in 130 years

Wexford have not beaten Dublin in 70 years

Wicklow have not beaten Dublin in 70 years their only victory

Carlow have not beaten Dublin in nearly 80 years

Longford have not beaten Dublin in nearly 50 years

Kilkenny have never beaten Dublin

Meath have beaten Dublin 9 times and drawn 5 times in the last 35 years in the championship

( Also there is 2 national league division 1 finals victories v the Dubs for Meath) So that brings Meath up to 11 wins and 5 draws. 16 undefeated games v Dublin in Croke Park in over 3 decades and more for us Royals)

So the narrative about leinster bring uncompetitive is incorrect and it should be changed to meath being uncompetitive?

Sonny678

Dublin always had a rival..or whoever was the dominant force in the provience at the time. This decade first time ever no rival. Dublin have always been dominate in leinster look at their numbers of titles ..

1920 30s Dublin had Kildare as a rival
1940s and 50s Meath had Louth and Dublin as rivals
1960s Meath had Offaly as a rival
1970s Dublin had Offaly as a rival
1980s Meath had Dublin as a rival
1990s Meath had Dublin Kildare and Offaly as rivals
2000s Dublin had Meath Laois and Westmeath as a rival
2010s Dublin have no rivals

The only periods you had a very competitive leinster championship when you had numerous winners were late 90s to early 00s eg Winners Meath Dublin Kildare Offaly Laois Westmeath
1940s 50s - Winners Meath Dublin Louth Kildare Wexford Carlow Laois

In the last 55 or 56 years I think Dublin have won 29 Meath 13 Offaly 9 Kildare 2 Laois Westmeath and longford 1 each.
Dublin have been the kingpins for a long time in leinster.
Take Meath and Offaly out of the equation Dublin could potentially have won 49 of the last 55 leinster titles

Take out Meath and Offaly out of the equation. Dublin could have and probaly would havd won the leinster title from 1969 to 1997. (Meath Offaly and Dublin were the only winners during this period )
Dublin could have won 28 leinster titles in a row during this period.

Sonny678

naughtb4 wrote:

So the narrative about leinster bring uncompetitive is incorrect and it should be changed to meath being uncompetitive?

Well if you examine the above information. The answer is yes. That Meath and Offaly have being uncompetitive.

You had a golden age of leinster football between 96 to 05 with Meath Dublin Kildare Offaly Laois and Westmeath were winners. But that was an unusual period of competitiveness in leinster football.

But before that from 1958 to 1997 Dublin Meath and Offaly divided all the leinster titles between each other . Only longfords win in 1968 broke up that sequence and Louths win in 1957 and Kildare in 1956.

The early 40s and 50s is the only other period as well as the 96 to 05. When you had a really competitive leinster with Meath Dublin Louth Kildare Wexford Laois and Carlow winners .

Leinster is great football provience. With many great areas and supporters and clubs. But Dublins being the kingpins did not begin in the last 13 years with 12 titles. It's being the narrative of leinster football for 130 years.

Powerhouse

TrueGael wrote: »

Minor has absolute zero relevance to Senior at IC level - Laois would have won a lot more if it did

Also Competing Sports do exist in other wise counties despite what ye may believe. Clubs in Mayo, Kerry and all along the Western Seaboard can barely field 1 Senior Club team and have to amalgamate at Underage Level in some cases up to 3/4 different clubs

While Dublin population soaring to 1.7m by 2030 and 2m by 2040 and yet people on here will tell you they shouldn't be split, no matter what damage is done to Football Championship as a worthwhile competition

I mentioned Minor only to demonstrate the weakness of the population arguments not to claim any link between it and Senior. Population advantage should really matter at Minor level when constant turnover of players is necessary but Dublin record at Minor All-Ireland level is mediocre.

Competing sports exist but the idea that they are as well-resourced, as professionally organised or as attractive as an alternative to youths doesn't hold up. In Dublin soccer and rugby clubs you have never heard of are playing players match fees, and have schoolboys set-ups which are huge.

What is the problem with the Football Championship as a "worthwhile competition"? Dublin beat Kerry by three points in 2015, and by two in 2016 and by one in 2011. And in the one win over Kerry which looks comprehensive on the face of it, Dublin were behind going into injury-time. They lost to Mayo in 2012, beat them by a point in 2012, '16 and '17, and needed two replays along the way. What's not worthwhile about that competition?

Yes, they have hammered teams along the way too but look at some other results - Connacht Final 2015: Mayo 6-25 Sligo 2-11; 2013: Mayo 5-11 London 0-10. Munster Final 2017: Kerry 1-23 Cork 0-15; 2016: Kerry 3-17 Tipperary 2-10; 2014: Kerry 0-24 Cork 0-12.

Quarter-finals 2017: Mayo 4-19 Rosommon 0-9; Tyrone 3-17 Armagh 0-8. Quarter-final 2016: Kerry 2-16 Clare 0-11. What would splitting Dublin do to combat that uncompetitiveness? Or is it okay when it's not Dublin involved?

Funny how when Kerry or Mayo have runaways wins people are concerned that they are "untested" ahead of future games but when Dublin have the same the county must be split and the championship is in crisis!

JB81

Sonny678 wrote: »

This is shows how dominant Dublin have been in leinster football. They have an aura in leinster football for decades. Teams are beaten before they even enter the field v Dublin for decades.

Leinster teams record v Dublin in leinster championship

Kildare have only beaten Dublin twice in 45 years

Offaly have not beaten Dublin in 35 years.

Laois have beaten Dublin once in 35 years

Louth haven't not beaten Dublin in 40 years

Westmeath have beaten Dublin twice in 130 years

Wexford have not beaten Dublin in 70 years

Wicklow have not beaten Dublin in 70 years their only victory

Carlow have not beaten Dublin in nearly 80 years

Longford have not beaten Dublin in nearly 50 years

Kilkenny have never beaten Dublin

Meath have beaten Dublin 9 times and drawn 5 times in the last 35 years in the championship

( Also there is 2 national league division 1 finals victories v the Dubs for Meath) So that brings Meath up to 11 wins and 5 draws. 16 undefeated games v Dublin in Croke Park in over 3 decades and more for us Royals)

So do you not count the games were Dublin beat Meath...
'Undefeated in over 3 decades' .... lol , good play on words...

I think it would be at least fair to say how many games were played between the two teams!