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The Greatest Teams Ever Debate (Dublin - The Greatest Team Ever?)

Sonny678

Firstly Congratulations to the Dubs. Dublin are the team of the decade. One of the All time great teams. Their achievements will go down in the history books. They are a credit to their county and clubs. This is a golden era for Dublin football.

However there those seem to be allot of people trying to rewrite history and downplay Kerrys 75 to 86 achievements. In order to prove Dublin are the best. I think allot of supporters who started following the game in the last 10 or 15 years are pushing this idea that Dublin are the greatest. They probaly dont know the achievements of Down or past Cavan teams. And never heard of Downs Sean O Neill or Cavans Higgins.

However the facts do not back this up. By saying the facts is not downgrading Dublins wins. They have achieved greatness. But facts are facts.
1 Kerry team of 70s and 80s. Did three great things 1 Win All.Ireland in 1975 with one of the youngest teams ever to win Sam ? by beating one of the greatest teams ever..2 They won a 4 in a row between 78 to 81. 3 They won 3 in a row 84 85 86.

They also had some of the greatest players of all time playing in their chosen positions. This Dublin team have one player playing that could be said to be the best ever in his position. Eg Stephen Cluxton is the greatest goalkeeper ever. Kerry had Jack O Se the greatest midfielder ever and possibly the greatest footballer ever. They had Pat Spillane the greatest number 12 in the history of the game . And Mickey Sheedy the greatest number 15 in the history of the game. They also had Paudi O Se possibly the greatest number 5 ever. While John O Keefe Ogie Moran Ger Power John Egan Bomber Liston are some of the greatest players of the modern era.

Kerry had to face tougher opposition then Dublin. Kerry had to beat one of the greatest teams ever, the Dublin team 74 -77. This Dublin have not faced an All time great team. That is a fact. Also every year Kerry faced an excellent Cork team who were a top Division 1 team and where regularly in the top 3 in country. Dublin have not had to face top Division 1 team in their provience since the early noughties. Also in ther 70s you had very good Meath and Armagh teams.

In the west you had a brillant Roscomon team ,one of the greatst teams to come west of the Shannon in the last 50 years. A brillant defence backboned by the Great Harry Keegan and at midfield one of the greatest talent to ever cross the Shannon , the late great Dermot Earley senior. That Roscomon team won 5 Connachts and Roscommons first league and gave the greatest team ever one of their toughest finals. You also had a brillant Offaly team led by the most naturally talented footballer ever, Matt Connor. Offaly 82 was a brillant team. In the mid 80s Tyrone and Monaghan had two excellent teams. Which in any other era would have won an All Ireland. The Monaghan team 85 is Monaghans greatest team ever. And the Tyrone 84- 86 was up to that point Tyrone greatst team ever led by warriors like Donaghy John Lynch Eugene McKenna and Frank McGuigan. That team was a much superior outfit to the current Tyrone team. Would any current footballer be as brillant as the great Frank McGuigan.

In comparison Dublin have been great but so many counties are hitting record low levels.

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blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Cork team was 87 to 91. It was pretty much considered an 80s team. The same Meath team was 86 to 91 was pretty much considered a 80s team. People are just nitpicking now. Looking for the smallest factual error.

Neither of those teams, nor the Down team had the longevity to be considered greatest ever football team.

If you want a list of greatest ever All-Ireland triumphs, the first Down victory would be right up there, probably with the 1979 Kerry victory, where they swept every team aside.

Sonny678

Mick O Connell was very stylish player. But was known to go missing in big games eg Down and Galway finals in the sixties.
Tommy Murphy one of the greatest footballers of all time. A football Prodigy
Brian Mullins One of the greatest midfielders of time
Anthony Tohill a brillant midfielder one of the most talented . But I have heard and remebered at the time people say Tohill went missing in some big matchs

Kilgallon and Earley two warriors. But Dara O Se would have been a better midfielder. John McDermont was probaly better then both also.

Jack O Se has been called been named as the greatest footballer ever by ex player ex managers and supporters. I have yet to hear 1 person say Tohill Kilgallon McDermont Early been called the greatest footballer ever. A four time footballer of the year. On the team of Millennium. There's a lot of evidence to say Jack O Se was one of the best if not the best midfielder ever.

Sonny678

Thank you.

Amprodude

Sonny678 wrote: »

Thank you.

You are most welcome.

Sonny678

They didn't have the longevity but by God they have some impact.
They brought the short passing game to Croker. Which they had developed from early Antrim teams.
Players not playing in position. Heffernan did this in 55 when he was a roaming full forward. But Down brought it to a new level
Breaking ball at midfield
Down winning was a football earthquake. No Down no modern day tactics eg blanket defence sweeper
No Down 60 61 you have no Donegal Derry 92 93 or Tyrone or Armagh in the noughties.
That team revolutionised the game and their impact is still felt today
Also socially culturally politically a team winning from the 6 counties had a massive impact socially culturally and politically.
And I have yet to mention the great Sean O Neill one of the greatest forwards of all time. And along with Peter Cavanan the two greatest forwards to ever come from Ulster.
They might not have had longevity but surely the above reasons are plenty to name them one of the All time great teams.
Down winning three All Irelands in the sixties, beating a brillant Kerry team twice. Beating Kerry in 68. (Kerry won the double in 69 and 70.)
Would be like Sligo or Wicklow winning three All.Irelands in the 2020s. Actually It would be like London winning three All Irelands in 2020s.

Bridge93

https://ovalmauls.wordpress.com/2016/10/03/the-10-greatest-gaelic-football-teams-of-all-time-oct-2016-update/

Sonny678

Again this is the great myth. 97 was the real big loss for Mayo. They had the experience of 96. And if they had man marked Fitzgerald they would have won. Kerry in 97 played Clare Cavan and Mayo to win Sam. That Kerry win was important for Kerry to end their famine. But in terms of Kerry teams that team and 2014 would be in the bottom 3 or 4 kerry teams ever. The noughties teams, the 70s 80s team, the 69 70 team the 60- 65 team , 55 59 team and Kerry teams from the 30s and 40s were all better then the 97 team. Kerry produce geniuses and great teams. But 1997 Kerry and 2010 Cork are the only winners I would say in the last 70 years where the poorest.

Meath in 96 were a much superior outfit to Mayo. Meath won 2 finals reaching 3 finals. Mayo won 0 finals reaching two. At their peak that Mesth played devastating good football eg second game v Kildare 97 Tyrone 96 Offaly 98 and 99. And inflicting Kerrys worst defeat ever in exhibition of football in the 15 point win in semi final 01.
Mayo had a excellent back line and midfield. But their forwards where divsion 3 maybe divsion 2 standard. James Horan was a good wing forward. McMemanin Casey and Finnerty were not great average enough.

In comparison Meath had a forward line of Tommy Dowd Graham Geraghty Tevour Giles Evan Kelly Brendan Reilly and Ollie Murphy. Surely that is one of the best forward lines of the last 20 years or so.
People rave about Dublin been 2 points v Mayo in this years final and showing their nerve. Well Meath were 6 points down in both games . And a group of kids held their nerve showing one of the best displays of composure by a young team in a final ever. Remeber Meath 96 and Kerry 75 are the youngest teams to win Sam. Meath had 7 under 21 in 96. Imagine Dublin won the All.Irekand this year with 7 players the same age as Con Callaghan this year. That's what Meath did in 96. One of the greatest young teams ever.

While Brendan Reilly point is the best winning point from play to win an All.Ireland in 50 years. But never mentioned.
Mayo backed by the Dublin media stole the narrative afterwards and it all.abput the row and ball bouncing over the bar. The simple fact is Mayo are good enough now to win Sam. But they were not good enough in 96. If you cannot score in the last 15 minutes of a final and the other teams scores 6 points on the trot . Your not good enough. If Mayo won that Mayo forward line would have been worst ever to win Sam. Meath proved how good they where by winning in 99.and reaching the final in 01. And beating Kerry Mayo Cork Armagh Tyrone in the championship and in 4 games in 5 years unbeaten v the Dubs. Not a bad team whatsoever.

Sonny678

The link above is a good list but I still think Down 60 61 and alot of that team played in 68 were better then Tyrone 03 05 08. Tyrone were a great team. They are the only team you could call all time great team but did not do double, put All Irelands back to back. They also had the benefit of back door. Down won a double. Also I think Down of 91 94 is very underrated. They were unlucky there was no backdoor . They were unlucky that 3 of the best 4 teams in the country ,three All Ireland winning teams were in the same provience in 91 94 Down Derry and Donegal. The forward line of Carr Blaney Mason McCarten Whiterall Linden v Dooher McGuigan O Neill Mulligan Cavanan . It's a tough one who was best. Probaly Tyrone but Down 91 94 also were an important team. Broke down the door for Ulster teams to win.

Anyway below is my stab of all time Ulster teams.
The best teams to come out of Ulster
1 Down 60 61 68
2 Cavan 47 48 52
3 Tyrone 03 05 08
4 Down 91 94
5 Cavan 33 35
6 Armagh 02
7 Donegal 92
8 Derry 93
9 Donegal 2012
10 Jiont tenth Antrim team of the 40s/ Tyrone team 84-86

castletownman

IMHO the current Dublin version are certainly the greatest team of my lifetime, and possibly of any era, at grinding out results when the pressure is on. Emphasised by winning four of their five All Ireland's by one-point margins.

But one thing that has to be taken into context, is that they are arguably a "golden generation" from the capital, as opposed to their contempories from this era. This Mayo team have as may star players have they've had from any era (Higgins, Boyle, Keegan), but then again their team from the 50s have Team of the Century inductees Sean Flanagan and Tom Langan.

The current Kerry side are incomparable to the noughties team, never mind Micko's. Tyrone are in the same boat when compared to a decade ago. Literally the only top 8 county from this era that could claim to have "once in a generation" group of players are Donegal, and yet they suffered a drop-off in performances when McGuinness left (greatest modern-day manager in my eyes). Monaghan perhaps too, but they were systematically dismantles by the Dubs too.

Now there have been many theories put forward as to why the Dublin beast has grown over the last few years, but at the end of the day, the biggest factor has been the standard of players coming through at the same time.

Whatever about Micko's team of the 1970s (the benchmark for any greatest ever debate), how many of Heffo's Army would get into this Dublin side? Brian Mullins certainly, Kevin Moran if he wasn't lost to that bleedin' foreign game, and perhaps Tommy Drumm and Sean Doherty. Paul Curran, Ciaran Whelan and Alan Brogan from more modern times.

Sonny678

I have done Connacht and Ulster best ever here is a leinster best teams ever. It very tricky to do a top ten. I think my top 3 are pretty much right. After that it is personal choice.

1 Dublin 1974 - 77
2 Dublin 2011- 2017
3 Meath 1987, 88
4 Offaly 1971 , 72
5 Wexford 1914 - 18
6 Kildare 1927, 28
7 Meath 1949, 54
8 Joint Eight Dublin 1958 63 / Meath 1996 99
9 Offaly 1982
10 Louth 1957

Just outside top ten ( not in order)
Dublin 1983 and 95 winners
Meath 1967. Winners
Kildare 1998. All Ireland finalist
Laois 1936 All Ireland finalist
Louth 1910 1912, All Ireland wins before independence
Kildare 1905 1919 , All Ireland wins before independence.
Laois and Westmeath leinster winners 2003 and 2004.
Offaly 1960s team. Twice All.Ireland finalist
Dublin 1920s team. Winners at time of Independence.
Longford 1968 and Carlow 1943 leinster winning teams.

Bonniedog

castletownman wrote: »

how many of Heffo's Army would get into this Dublin side? Brian Mullins certainly, Kevin Moran if he wasn't lost to that bleedin' foreign game, and perhaps Tommy Drumm and Sean Doherty. Paul Curran, Ciaran Whelan and Alan Brogan from more modern times.

Driscoll, he was like Philly nothing got past until the Bomber; Mullins get on any team, Hanahoe - brilliant reader of game, Kilkenny be only Dub comparable; and Jimbo Keaveney - he had everything, scored goals, kicked frees and was tough as fk.

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

3 Dublin 1974 to 1977. I know this Dublin have won more. But that Dublin team also changed that Face of gaelic football. 1974 is the year zero for modern gaelic football. Before that everything was black and white. They brought color to the game. Heffernan changed the face of the game with tactics and the role of manger. They also creates hill 16 and modern Dublin.. Before 74 country lads won most of Dublin all.Ireland. After 74 it was now a team with Dublin lads. They also came from nowhere with only them and Meath in 96 the only teams that came from nowhere to win Sam. They also defeated the greatest team ever twice. For me still greatest Dublin team ever

.

If you want to talk about redefining Gaelic Football, you don't need to look any further than this current Dublin team.

The mark was a rule-change specifically to deal with the success of Cluxton's kick-out. The tactical demolition, most clearly seen in this year's semi-final of the prevalent "puke-football" defensive approach, was a real boost for the game.

You have a great appreciation of past GAA teams and an encyclopedic knowledge of them too. However, nostalgia for some of those teams is clouding your judgment in my opinion.

Sonny678

Bonniedog wrote:

Driscoll, he was like Philly nothing got past until the Bomber; Mullins get on any team, Hanahoe - brilliant reader of game, Kilkenny be only Dub comparable; and Jimbo Keaveney - he had everything, scored goals, kicked frees and was tough as fk.

Actually when you compare both teams the personel, theres not much of a difference
1 Paddy Cullen A terrific goalie . Along with Martin Furlong Billy Morgan and Charlie Nelligan best of his generation
2 Driscoll excellent old fashioned corner back
3 Sean Doherty a beast of a full back. Made Mick Lyons look like a choir boy. (For twenty years the best full back was nearly always in leinster. Eg Jack Quinn 66 -70 Meath, Paddy " Iron man from Rhodes" Offaly 70- 73, Sean Doherty Dublin and John O Kefffe kerry 1974-1982 and Mick Lyons 1983- 1991 Best full backs in Ireland between 1960- 1990.)

4 Tommy Drumm was a lovely wing back. Top class

5 Kevin Moran was a swashbuckling centre back..if he stayed in the GAA could have become the best centre back in Ireland

6 Brogan Snr Had great engine

7 Brian Mullins Simply put one of the greatest Dublin players ever. One of the greatest midfielders ever.

8 Tony Hanahoe. A brillant centre forward. In my view much superior to Kilkenny . Kilkenny is proper warrior but he does to much passing back and forth for my liking. He doesn't have the vision of a Giles Blaney or B McGuigan. Proper play making centre forwards.

9 I cannot believe no one has mentioned the blue panther. The Diarmaid Connolly of the 70s team. One of the most talented Dublin footballers ever. The brillant very skilful Anton O Tooled

10 Jimmy Keaveney is simply one of the greatst Dublin forwards ever. In my opinion the top 4 Dublin forwards are 1 Kevin Heffernan 2 Jimmy Keaveney 3 Bernard Brogan 4 Barney Rock

Also that Dublin team defeated the greatest team ever twice. The 8 time All Ireland winning team kerry team.

They also had a much tougher opposition in leinster then the current team. In the years of 74 76 77 they faced battles with a very good Meath team who at the time where in top 5 in the country. Meath and Kerry are the only teams to defeat that great Dublin in a national final at the time. Meath beat Dublin very comfortably in the 75 league final. Meath had players like Ken Rennicks ( the greatest Meath players never to win Sam) legendary Jack Quinn and Mattie Kerrigan and young Colm.O Rourke Joe Cassells Mick Lyons and Gerry McEntee. Meath could have beaten Dublin in 74 leinster final and should have beaten them in 76 final and how they didn't win in 77 when they dominated the second half and kicked the game away it is mystery. And remeber that was the year Dublin won the double and defeated Kerry and Armagh by big margins.

After 77 that Meath team fell away. And Dublin had to face a brillant Offaly team. Offaly gave a good account in 78 final v Dublin. And should have won 79 only for Brian Mullins driving Dublin to victory. But in 1980 Offaly ended that Dublin team. And went onto to win 3 leinsters and 1 All Ireland

So Dublin had to face tougher leinster opposition then the current team. Meath won national league title and went toe to toe with Dublin in 3 leinster finals. The current Meath team is a divsion 2 team and probaly Meath worst in 35 years. The last two times they have beaten by 10 and 16 points by the current team. The Meath team 70s only were beaten by a 1 point or 2.

So Dublin 70s had to face a top 5 national league winning team and an All Ireland winning team in leinster. The current team have to face no national league winners no All Ireland winner no divsion 1 teams. . All Dublin havw to face currently is divsion 2 but mostly divsion 3 and 4 teams through our this decade. Simply the worst leinster championship in 130 years of gaelic football.

Bonniedog

You cant say that 70s Dubs were better than current team.

Right here we go: (76 team) :

Cullen v Cluxton - Cluxton, best ever.

2. Driscoll v Philly or Cooper - have to be Gay.

3. Doherty v Rory - Doherty.

4. Kelliher v Fitzsimons, Fitzsiomons

5. Carthy by country mile.

6. Moran or Sullivan or indeed Ger. Sullivan.

7. Jack. No contest.

8 and 9 Fenton and Mullins, no contest, honourable mention to Whelan, Bernard senior and MDm.

10. The Blue Panther!

11. Hanahoe.

12. Out of place but Connolly

13. 14, 15 hard to call; you'd have to have Jimbo, Bernie,,,, after that toss up

seligehgit

Sonny678 wrote: »

Again this is the great myth. 97 was the real big loss for Mayo. They had the experience of 96. And if they had man marked Fitzgerald they would have won. Kerry in 97 played Clare Cavan and Mayo to win Sam. That Kerry win was important for Kerry to end their famine. But in terms of Kerry teams that team and 2014 would be in the bottom 3 or 4 kerry teams ever. The noughties teams, the 70s 80s team, the 69 70 team the 60- 65 team , 55 59 team and Kerry teams from the 30s and 40s were all better then the 97 team. Kerry produce geniuses and great teams. But 1997 Kerry and 2010 Cork are the only winners I would say in the last 70 years where the poorest.

Meath in 96 were a much superior outfit to Mayo. Meath won 2 finals reaching 3 finals. Mayo won 0 finals reaching two. At their peak that Mesth played devastating good football eg second game v Kildare 97 Tyrone 96 Offaly 98 and 99. And inflicting Kerrys worst defeat ever in exhibition of football in the 15 point win in semi final 01.
Mayo had a excellent back line and midfield. But their forwards where divsion 3 maybe divsion 2 standard. James Horan was a good wing forward. McMemanin Casey and Finnerty were not great average enough.

In comparison Meath had a forward line of Tommy Dowd Graham Geraghty Tevour Giles Evan Kelly Brendan Reilly and Ollie Murphy. Surely that is one of the best forward lines of the last 20 years or so.
People rave about Dublin been 2 points v Mayo in this years final and showing their nerve. Well Meath were 6 points down in both games . And a group of kids held their nerve showing one of the best displays of composure by a young team in a final ever. Remeber Meath 96 and Kerry 75 are the youngest teams to win Sam. Meath had 7 under 21 in 96. Imagine Dublin won the All.Irekand this year with 7 players the same age as Con Callaghan this year. That's what Meath did in 96. One of the greatest young teams ever.

While Brendan Reilly point is the best winning point from play to win an All.Ireland in 50 years. But never mentioned.
Mayo backed by the Dublin media stole the narrative afterwards and it all.abput the row and ball bouncing over the bar. The simple fact is Mayo are good enough now to win Sam. But they were not good enough in 96. If you cannot score in the last 15 minutes of a final and the other teams scores 6 points on the trot . Your not good enough. If Mayo won that Mayo forward line would have been worst ever to win Sam. Meath proved how good they where by winning in 99.and reaching the final in 01. And beating Kerry Mayo Cork Armagh Tyrone in the championship and in 4 games in 5 years unbeaten v the Dubs. Not a bad team whatsoever.

Not buying that Sonny,we threw that first game away.I agree with you re the inadequacies our forward line.

1997 is a greater regret in many ways as that was a very poor Kerry team,worst I've ever seen win Sam.Maurice Fitz won the damn thing for them,5 bloody switches so an injured Dermot Flanagan could get his celtic cross medal like his father.Leaving Pat Holmes on Fitzgerald for the entirety of the contest.:mad:

1.Kerry team 70/80s
2.Current Dublin team
3.Kerry team 2000s
4.Tyrone team 2000s

Sonny678

Bonniedog wrote:

Right here we go: (76 team) :

Bonniedog wrote:

You cant say that 70s Dubs were better than current team.

Bonniedog wrote:

2. Driscoll v Philly or Cooper - have to be Gay.

Bonniedog wrote:

5. Carthy by country mile.

Bonniedog wrote:

7. Jack. No contest.

Bonniedog wrote:

6. Moran or Sullivan or indeed Ger. Sullivan.

Bonniedog wrote:

4. Kelliher v Fitzsimons, Fitzsiomons

Bonniedog wrote:

8 and 9 Fenton and Mullins, no contest, honourable mention to Whelan, Bernard senior and MDm.

Bonniedog wrote:

Cullen v Cluxton - Cluxton, best ever.

Bonniedog wrote:

10. The Blue Panther!

Bonniedog wrote:

11. Hanahoe.

Bonniedog wrote:

12. Out of place but Connolly

Bonniedog wrote:

13. 14, 15 hard to call; you'd have to have Jimbo, Bernie,,,, after that toss up

Still didn't a dress the fact the Dublin defeated an 8 time kerry All Ireland winning team twice.
Still didnt address the fact Dublin team of the 70s had serious opposition firstly Meath and then Offaly in leinster. This current have no opposition in leinster throughout this decade. Never in the last 100 years has an All Ireland winning from leinster have had such weak leinster championship to face. Dublin are the only great team ever that dont have serious opposition a top divsion 1 team in their provience. Name any team that had won Sam in the last 70 year's. That had no top team in their province. Only Cavan in 30s and 40s had such little opposition to face in their province.

Can anyone name a team that won an All Ireland since 1940 that has not had no opposition in their province. It's unheard off. Unprecedented. No one seems to want to recognise that fact. It's a fact
I will give a quick run through
Galway 98 and 01 had to face good Roscomon team. And top divsion 1 twice All Ireland finalist Mayo team

Down 91 94 had to face Derry and Donegal All Ireland winning teams

Down in the 60s had to face strong Cavan team

Meath in the 60s had to face strong Offaly

Kerry from 75 to 86 had to face a Cork team top divsion 1 team top 3 team.
Dublin have not faced a top 3 team in leinster since 2001.

Sonny678

Question who was the better team Meath late 90s v Mayo late 90s
Meath won more 2 All Irelands Mayo 0.
Meath had a better manager .
Meath had better defence , Darren Fay and Martin O Connell are two of the best defenders of the last 40 years
McHale was a very good midfielder but McDermont at his peak was the best midfielder in Ireland

How can you say that team that has no forward line a forward line above average is better then one of the best forwards lines of the last 20 years
. Meath were unbeaten v Dublin in 4 games
Gave Kerry their biggest defeat ever
And defeated strong Mayo Tyrone Offaly Kildare Armagh Louth and Cork opposition.

Performances like first half v Dublin 97 Offaly 98 99 Kildare 97 and Kerry 01 are as good as a football performances that have seen in Croker in last 25 years.

OK can you list where Mayo are a better team then Meath in late 90s. Can you give reasons

Mayo overachieved with a very fit team with some very good defenders and midfielders and very good manager.
But they had not one quality even decent forward. How in God's name can you win an All.Ireland with no decent forwards. That's why Meath scored 6 points in a row in the last 15 minutes and Mayo scored none. That's why Brendan Reilly scores exquisite point that no Mayo player in 96 was capable of doing.

Meath won more titles, defeated more top teams, had better defence midfielder and thousands times better forwards lines and a better manager. And yet Mayo were a better team.

Meath should have lost in 96. Then they might have been considered a better team
You see counties can take beatings off Tipp Kilkenny and Cork in hurling and Dublin Kerry Galway and Cork in football. But if anyone else beats them counties look for excuses and bad mouth the winners

Look at the reaction to Meaths victories in the 80s and 90s. And Tyrone Armagh and Donegal in recent years eg puke football comment
The hatred thrown towards Galway team late 80s and Clare team late 90s from the hurling community. The 1989 semi final between Tipp and Galway was the dirtiest game I ever saw. And rivalry between Clare and Tipp in the 90s was vicious.

Can Mayo give a list of reasons why Mayo were a better team in the late 90s
How a team that won 2 All.Irelands is not as good as a team that won none.

Sonny678

No one seems to want to adress the fact that this decade or era is not great compares to other era. OK
First thing defending is very poor. Player don't want to defend , others don't know how to defend. Blanket defending has destroyed defending. The best defenders now are playing for Dublin and Mayo. Look at how poor Tyrone and Kerry defence is. There is a serious lack of good defenders in the country at the moment in this decade. Dublin and Mayo have best defenders. Donegal and Monaghan had a few good defenders. But their defence was built on system then on brillant defenders.

Look at the defenders from the 90s below
Hargan Barr Kennedy Heery Curran Lyons O Malley O Connell Fay Reilly Moyihan Breen Hassett Flaherty Callihane Davis O Brien Lynch Fahy De Paor Nallen Mortimer Scullion Lockart Deegan Kane Gallagher Lawn McGeeney Ryan Dalton Rainbow

Great defenders . Defending now is a dying art.

seligehgit

Sonny678 wrote: »

Question who was the better team Meath late 90s v Mayo late 90s
Meath won more 2 All Irelands Mayo 0.
Meath had a better manager .
Meath had better defence , Darren Fay and Martin O Connell are two of the best defenders of the last 40 years
McHale was a very good midfielder but McDermont at his peak was the best midfielder in Ireland

How can you say that team that has no forward line a forward line above average is better then one of the best forwards lines of the last 20 years
. Meath were unbeaten v Dublin in 4 games
Gave Kerry their biggest defeat ever
And defeated strong Mayo Tyrone Offaly Kildare Armagh Louth and Cork opposition.

Performances like first half v Dublin 97 Offaly 98 99 Kildare 97 and Kerry 01 are as good as a football performances that have seen in Croker in last 25 years.

OK can you list where Mayo are a better team then Meath in late 90s. Can you give reasons

Mayo overachieved with a very fit team with some very good defenders and midfielders and very good manager.
But they had not one quality even decent forward. How in God's name can you win an All.Ireland with no decent forwards. That's why Meath scored 6 points in a row in the last 15 minutes and Mayo scored none. That's why Brendan Reilly scores exquisite point that no Mayo player in 96 was capable of doing.

Meath won more titles, defeated more top teams, had better defence midfielder and thousands times better forwards lines and a better manager. And yet Mayo were a better team.

Meath should have lost in 96. Then they might have been considered a better team
You see counties can take beatings off Tipp Kilkenny and Cork in hurling and Dublin Kerry Galway and Cork in football. But if anyone else beats them counties look for excuses and bad mouth the winners

Look at the reaction to Meaths victories in the 80s and 90s. And Tyrone Armagh and Donegal in recent years eg puke football comment
The hatred thrown towards Galway team late 80s and Clare team late 90s from the hurling community. The 1989 semi final between Tipp and Galway was the dirtiest game I ever saw. And rivalry between Clare and Tipp in the 90s was vicious.

Can Mayo give a list of reasons why Mayo were a better team in the late 90s
How a team that won 2 All.Irelands is not as good as a team that won none.

Look at the piece I bolded,I'm talking about the piece that was bolded.You stated that Meath were a far superior team to Mayo in 1996,I am not buying that.I am simply talking about that first match day final not the era in it's entirety.We threw away that first final,end of.I'm not disputing the overall quality of the Meath team of that era!

James Horan scored 10 points in All Ireland finals!We'd a dearth of top class forwards but Sheridan was an able free taker and Casey was a decent full forward.Agreed 1-9 was as always our strength.

Bonniedog

You ask too many questions SonnyNot I left out Meath of late 80s, early 90s. Brilliant team. Almost the prefect team.

Our ones now are best Dublin team ever, beyond doubt. Not sure how you would compare them to past teams but likes of Hickey and Mullins say this crew is better.

Anyway all those teams that you mentioned are deserving of their place in history.

Regarding your point about defenders, it is completely different game now.

Would Lyons, Moynihan, Bellew, Hargan, Counihan surive now? Yes, if they were under same regime. Sometimes class beats all!

Sonny678

This is not a great era. Let's compare with the 90s.
In this era /decade you have 1 All time great team. Dublin . And possibly best team never to win Sam Mayo. Donegal had a very good team. But genius of McGuiness was the major reason for that win in 12. The 92 team was better. The Down team of 90s and Tyrone of the 00s were better.
2014 is one of the poorest kerry teams to win an All Ireland ever.

In the 90s you had strong Meath Cork Kerry Galway Mayo Roscommon Derry Down Donegal Armagh Tyrone Kildare Offaly laois and Louth teams
A proper competitive era football below

1 A great Meath team
2 Greatest Cork team ever
3 Geat Down team 91 94
4 The best Donegal and Derry team ever 92 93
5 Armagh team of the late 90s would become the greatest Armagh team ever
6 Tyrone team of the 90s was a much stronger team then the current one
7 Kildare has their best team in 90 year in 1998
8 The greatest team to come from Connacht in 50 years Galway 98 01
9 The greatest Offaly team of the last 30 years

While Mayo Cork Roscommon and Louth all had top div 1 teams at the time.
Compared to now that is what you call competitive. This Dublin team have very little competition compared to past winners.

Everything I say I try to back up with facts and stats. Other people responses are one lines with very few facts or stats to back this ludicrous idea that this Dublin team is the greatst team ever.

Sonny678

How can you throw away game. When in the last 15 mins Meath dominated. Meath scores 6 points in a row in the last 15 minutes. Mayo scored 0. How can a team deserve to win a final when they have forwards that score 0 in the last 15 minutes of the final.

Dublin were 2 points down v Mayo this year. And they have been praised for coming back. Imagine if Dublin were 6 points down. And scored 6 in a row in last 15 mins and Mayo scored 0. I guarantee no one will say Mayo should have won.

Meath team after outstanding performance v Tyrone. The young players the hype got to them. Your better not playing well in a semi final..

The young Meath kids/ cubs found the pressure of their first final tough, ( 7 under 21 youngest winner ever along with Kerry team 75). But when it mattered in the game they stood up and made it count. Mayo played well for parts of the both game. But in the last 15 of both games Meath took control. Your not going win any All Ireland if the opposition are in ascendancy for 30 mins ( you place both last 15 mins together.) It's impossible.

Mayo could have won first final last year. Mayo could have won the second final last year.
Mayo should have won this year. Also 2013 they had a great chance . Dublin were poor that day. And 2012 also was a even better chance . While 97 was the real one that got away

You have admitted Mayo were strong from 1-9 in 96. No team has ever won an All Ireland being strong from. 1-9. And weak from 10 to 15. It's a gaelic football impossibly to win an All.Irelanf with such forwards. Name a team that won All Ireland with average forward line.
Meath had the forwards to win 3 All Ireland something they nearly did. There was no player on that Mayo that would have scored Reilly winning point. Or worked Dowds winning goal. There's no forward on the Mayo team that would have got Meath team in 96.
Mayo Forwards 96
Horan A very good wing forward
McMemanin A hard working half foward
Finnerty A decent goal poacher
John Casey A good decent full forward

Now the Meath forward line
Tommy Dowd One of the best forwards of the mid 90s

Trevor Giles Two time footballer of the year. Footballer of the year at 21. Considered by many to be best playmaker centre forward in the last 40 years

Graham Geraghty . When he was wing back in 94 he was the best wing back Ireland. When he wing forward he was best wing forward in Ireland in 96. When he was full forward he was the best full forward in Ireland in 99. Simply put the most talented Meath footballer ever. To people who just started to follow GAA recently. The best way to describe GG would be Diarmaid Connolly would be a poor man's Graham Geraghty

Evan Kelly All star wing forward. He became one of the best wing forwards in the country

Brendan Reilly The best target man the best full forward in Ireland in 96

Ollie Murphy Between 99 and 2001 the best corner forward in Ireland. When he was on the field he was unmarkable.

Mayo should have won maybe 2 or 3 of the finals v Dublin. But you will meet many supporters saying Dublin were the better team. Dublin deserved to win even though Dublin did not well play in the three finals. They definitely did not dominate the last 15 minutes of a final the way Meath did in 96.

You see because of Dublin stature in Irish society. And the power of Dublin. Teams accepts defeats easier from.the capital from the countries most wealthiest , most powerful county. A county which is centre of social economic political and cultural activity in this country.

However other counties teams are not as accepting. Counties look at Meath a bog standard Midlands county. And think What so special about them. They don't accept the victory and look for excuses. But when they lose to the capital they are more accepting. This is a fact. Just look how Meath Tyrone Donegal teams have been labeled and treated after winning eg puke football.

Meath were much better team in 96. They proved that in the final 15 minutes of the game. Meath under Boylan had a reputation as a team that never gives up and delivers the goods in the final minutes of a match. When the pressure was at its most extreme Boylans Meath delivered. That would have symbolic of Meath teams in 80s and 90s. Mayo teams in finals would do the opposite. In the last 10 or 15 mins Mayp wilt under the weight of history.

A great football county . And we all hope Mayo will do it one day. And I'm sure they will.
But it's only when they accept they weren't good enough in 96 didn't have forwards to win in 96. Instead of lookin for excuses eg fanca bouncing ball McHale sent off. When they start accepting the above then they will start winning Sam. If Mayo stop looking for excuses and take responsibility than when Sam will go west

It will happen for a great football county like Mayo some day. I would love to have a Meath team at the moment as brave as the current Mayo team. In Meath we can recognise this brillant Mayo team. How can Mayo not recognide they were beaten by a brillant Meath team in 96.

Stoner

Always_Running wrote:

Whats to regret about 2012? Donegal were in their zone that year probably one of the most organized and well drilled All Ireland winners of the last decade. Has been plenty of near misses since including Sunday but i think 1996 is still Mayos biggest regret of all.

I suppose they gave them such a beating the next year , it was a massive difference between the two years, you might excuse them for thinking there was a gap between them

Stoner

I'm not running Donegals win down, but all of Mayo's dodgy opponents were out of the way in 2012. It auctually says a lot about both teams really looking back at it

C__MC

This current Dublin team won the league in the 2013, 14, 15 & 16. They also made the final in 2017. Some going. They also went 30 odd games undefeated as well. I would put them
Up there with the kerry team of the 70/80s

theoneeyedman

Stoner wrote: »

I'm not running Donegals win down, but all of Mayo's dodgy opponents were out if the way in 2012. It auctually says a lot about both teams really looking back at it

There would be an argument made by some, that any all ireland final wins by beating Mayo in finals should be discounted in these discussions. They have a record in not performing in finals and making dumb decisions, like trying to rough up Meath in 96.

Sonny678

Stoner wrote:

I'm not running Donegals win down, but all of Mayo's dodgy opponents were out if the way in 2012. It auctually says a lot about both teams really looking back at it

I think 2012 was a massive chance for Mayo. No Dublin or kerry in the final. But Donegal did what Kerry did to Mayo in 04 and 06. Blow them away in the first 15 mins. Which they did.

But after that the game settled and Mayo played well . Mayo were actually the better team after the first 15 mins. But the damage was done in the first few mins.

Donegal were very well.organisd . A brillant system under a terrific modern tactician manager. But without that system I think there were weaknesses in that Donegal outfit. Look how they were slaughtered the following year by Mayo. That was highly unusual for reigning champions.

Of All the Ulster winner in the last 25 years I would rate 2012 team the weakest team. The 92 Donegal Team was stronger. So was Tyrone and Armagh and down teams.

I think 2o12 was an example of charismatic individual and county merging as one. Like a movement our a cult for the want of a better word. Donegal players and supporters got behind MCGUINESS and it just clicked . Similar to Loughnane with Clare in 95 and Griffin with Wexford in 96.
It was facinating to watch. McGuiness is one of most interesting GAA figures of recent times. Donegal is a fine county with friendly charming people. It is quite a unique county. I think McGuiness seemed to get the whole county to rise up in that period. Similar to Loughnane and Griffin.

RoscommonTom

the Kerry four in a row is the best team of all time. Dublin gets millions of euros from the Gaa and gets to play all their games in crocker, imagine if Kerry or mayo had them sorts of advantages playing at home and loads of money, I think theyd be winning as much as the dubs

blanch152

Sonny678 wrote: »

Still didn't a dress the fact the Dublin defeated an 8 time kerry All Ireland winning team twice.
Still didnt address the fact Dublin team of the 70s had serious opposition firstly Meath and then Offaly in leinster. This current have no opposition in leinster throughout this decade. Never in the last 100 years has an All Ireland winning from leinster have had such weak leinster championship to face. Dublin are the only great team ever that dont have serious opposition a top divsion 1 team in their provience. Name any team that had won Sam in the last 70 year's. That had no top team in their province. Only Cavan in 30s and 40s had such little opposition to face in their province.

Can anyone name a team that won an All Ireland since 1940 that has not had no opposition in their province. It's unheard off. Unprecedented. No one seems to want to recognise that fact. It's a fact
I will give a quick run through
Galway 98 and 01 had to face good Roscomon team. And top divsion 1 twice All Ireland finalist Mayo team

Down 91 94 had to face Derry and Donegal All Ireland winning teams

Down in the 60s had to face strong Cavan team

Meath in the 60s had to face strong Offaly

Kerry from 75 to 86 had to face a Cork team top divsion 1 team top 3 team.
Dublin have not faced a top 3 team in leinster since 2001.

Dublin beat four Division 1 teams this year in winning the All-Ireland. That didn't happen pre-qualifiers.

ThunbergsAreGo

Sonny678 wrote: »

Still didn't a dress the fact the Dublin defeated an 8 time kerry All Ireland winning team twice.
Still didnt address the fact Dublin team of the 70s had serious opposition firstly Meath and then Offaly in leinster. This current have no opposition in leinster throughout this decade. Never in the last 100 years has an All Ireland winning from leinster have had such weak leinster championship to face. Dublin are the only great team ever that dont have serious opposition a top divsion 1 team in their provience. Name any team that had won Sam in the last 70 year's. That had no top team in their province. Only Cavan in 30s and 40s had such little opposition to face in their province.

Can anyone name a team that won an All Ireland since 1940 that has not had no opposition in their province. It's unheard off. Unprecedented. No one seems to want to recognise that fact. It's a fact
I will give a quick run through
Galway 98 and 01 had to face good Roscomon team. And top divsion 1 twice All Ireland finalist Mayo team

Down 91 94 had to face Derry and Donegal All Ireland winning teams

Down in the 60s had to face strong Cavan team

Meath in the 60s had to face strong Offaly

Kerry from 75 to 86 had to face a Cork team top divsion 1 team top 3 team.
Dublin have not faced a top 3 team in leinster since 2001.

When have Mayo played a top three team in their Province? Or Kerry?

I think the qualifiers have changed the provincial structure in many ways that makes past comparison difficult. The Mayo team of the last two years and their journey wouldn't have happened for example. It