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Minimum Alcohol pricing to be signed into Law

Timistry

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1022/482077-public-health-alcohol-bill/

Multiple excise increases in the last few Budgets and now this... Ireland is already one of the most expensive countries in Europe for alcohol. Like many, I can appreciate the negative impacts that it has on society but these nanny state measures just will not work

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Blut2

BeerNut wrote: »

No. Just the Journal piece linked above. The Bill was introduced in the Seanad before Christmas and went through second stage there. There's still the final bits of Seanad procedure before it goes to the Dáil. If the Seanad is anything to go by there's basically zero political resistance to this, so that probably won't take long. Once passed, it'll be up to the Department of Health to produce a timescale for bringing it into force. It seems unlikely that there'll be any legal challenges to it; if it gets scuppered it'll be through European rules relating to the case currently ongoing between the Scottish government and the Scotch whisky industry. It's possible that the Bill will need to be amended in light of this during the Dáil stage, so I wouldn't be surprised if the government was delaying introduction in the Dáil to wait and see what happens in Scotland.

The fact its likely to be a quite unpopular measure with the masses, and there's likely to be another election in the short/medium-term, is probably also a factor I'd wager.

Jayop

Blut2 wrote: »

The fact its likely to be a quite unpopular measure with the masses, and there's likely to be another election in the short/medium-term, is probably also a factor I'd wager.

It's completely farcical. We've already got just about the most expensive alcohol prices in europe and if we've got such massive alcohol problems then it's clear that pricing isn't a determining factor in attitudes towards alcohol.

BeerNut

Blut2 wrote: »

The fact its likely to be a quite unpopular measure with the masses, and there's likely to be another election in the short/medium-term, is probably also a factor I'd wager.

The 2003 and 2008 acts made arguably more profound anti-consumer changes to Ireland's drinking laws and neither became an electoral issue. Nobody is calling for their repeal. If this goes through, people will just accept it. People always do.

Blut2

BeerNut wrote: »

The 2003 and 2008 acts made arguably more profound anti-consumer changes to Ireland's drinking laws and neither became an electoral issue. Nobody is calling for their repeal. If this goes through, people will just accept it. People always do.

Oh absolutely. I didn't mean there would be water charges level of protests or anything. Just that the current government might be shy of bringing in the change within a relatively short window before a potential election. So will likely wait until they're more secure in power(ie in theory after the next election) before bringing it in. That way the measure would have enough time to become accepted/forgotten about by the voters long before they go to any polls.

Geuze

Help!!!! wrote: »

The government would be better reducing the amount of tax that pubs pay so the price of a pint would come down which in turn would encourage more people to go out for a pint thus the government not losing out overall on tax
Or is that too simple?

Excise duty is a tax on production. It's the same whether the product is sold into the on-trade or off-trade.

If you reduce excise by 10 cent per pint, off-trade prices will also fall.

Dr Crayfish

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0919/905837-cabinet/

looks like this will be passed this autumn. So no more booze on display and 2 euro for a can of Galahad. I wrote an email to all 5 of my TDs yesterday informing them I wont vote for them and will encourage everyone I meet in their constituency not to vote for them if this bill is passed. I encourage you to do same. The ones who wrote back all support it so this will definitely be passed. I really feel like I'm being treated like a naughty child and being patronised.

rubadub

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

2 euro for a can of Galahad.

has anybody got up to date figures on the proposed law.

I can see this one

http://health.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/PHAB-2015-as-published.pdf

Minimum price of alcohol products
10. (1) The minimum price per gram of alcohol for the purposes of this Act shall be €0.10.
(2) The minimum price of an alcohol product shall be calculated using the following
formula:
A x B = C
where—
A is the minimum price per gram of alcohol,
B is the quantity in grams of alcohol contained in the alcohol product, and
C is the minimum price of the alcohol product expressed in euro and cent.

the image of galahad suggests it is 4% 500ml 12cans for €8.79

https://www.aldi.ie/galahad-12---pack/p/062226006338400

Density of ethanol is 0.789 g/ml

4% @ 500ml is 20ml of pure alcohol, so 15.78grams. So min price is €1.58.

Not sure if your €2 was just an out of the air rounded figure, some might have misunderstood the grams bit and equated grams with ml and got €2. With water 1ml is approx 1g.

This was an old post of mine, which fits those figures too

rubadub wrote: »

A bog standard bottle of smirnoff is currently 20 euro in tesco. Varadkars plan is to have this at a min price of 20.71

I was saying before this "health" law is going to have the unintended consequence of having people lashing down vodka rather than 4% beer. At the moment excise is higher on spirits, which I have heard is partially to put people off spirits as a health concern, but the min price gets rid of that. I also was wondering if they could give freebies, e.g. free 2L of tesco coke with your bottle of tesco vodka. So your young lads in fields will be lashing down spirits.

Dr Crayfish

I didn't work out the price but I imagine I wont be able to buy tesco lager for 2.69 for 4 any more. I enjoy cheap p*ssy lagers once they're cold, from time to time, and not all of us like craft beer.

The worst thing about this is we'll just lie back and take it up the ass like we always do. Joke of a country. Hiding the drink in the shops, Jesus Christ, I remember thinking how hilarious it was in Nanny State Victoria Australia how they're not allowed sell booze in supermarkets and usually have it in an adjoining off licence, and now we're going one step further hiding it behind curtains.

rubadub

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

I didn't work out the price but I imagine I wont be able to buy tesco lager for 2.69 for 4 any more. I enjoy cheap p*ssy lagers once they're cold, from time to time, and not all of us like craft beer.

Same here, I like weaker beers sometimes, I will pay for more expensive beers (not necessarily craft) in pubs as they cost just a little more and think the price difference is worth it, but teh relative price difference in supermarkets/offies is huge.

The tesco stuff might not even be available anymore, or they would have minimal stock. Just like if chocolate went to ~double the min price there would be little demand for tesco value chocolate when their standard could/would be the same price.

4x440x3.8% is €2.64

the min price on that would be €5.28 -exactly double

RasTa

This won't affect the price of craft beer, well it shouldn't and I can't see the boys upping their prices because of this.

Might push more people towards the craft scene if they don't move their prices.

Although will Lidl American Pale Wheat still be €1.99 @ 5%?

rubadub

RasTa wrote: »

Although will Lidl American Pale Wheat still be €1.99 @ 5%?

The maths from the proposed bill is

500(the ml) x 5 (the %) x 0.0789= 197cent

flutered

Wetherspoons is slashing alcohol and food prices today in tax protest in the uk, will they do the same here

RasTa

Good. €2.67 is too cheap for 4 cans anyway.

If you're not paying over €20 for a 6 pack you're drinking the wrong stuff.

Dr Crayfish

Well I for one like Tesco lager and most craft beer tastes like variations of grapefruit juice to me!

Passenger

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

most craft beer tastes like variations of grapefruit juice to me!

You're drinking the wrong stuff so.

RasTa

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Well I for one like Tesco lager and most craft beer tastes like variations of grapefruit juice to me!

You like it because it's cheap. Hopefully they do the same with Coke too.

Dr Crayfish

Nothing to do with the price. I often buy expensive German beers like Augustine's etc j just don't like craft beers usually. Heresy I know.

rubadub

RasTa wrote: »

Good. €2.67 is too cheap for 4 cans anyway.

If you're not paying over €20 for a 6 pack you're drinking the wrong stuff.

I presumed this was a joke, but not sure after your last comment

RasTa wrote: »

Although will Lidl American Pale Wheat still be €1.99 @ 5%?

Why are you concerned about this stuff which is obviously "the wrong stuff", would have to almost double in price to become "the right stuff".

I would not go by price alone, they could be selling at a loss, several supermarkets are definitely selling spirits at a loss.

L1011

This will inevitably be challenged by retailers and will inevitably be thrown out just like the exact same thing for cigarettes was. Its a hobby horse for someone who wants to be seen to "do something" and doesn't care that it'll waste the state cash defending it before they get kicked by the ECJ.

The Scottish were told to prove minimum pricing was the only possible answer. They clearly can't

Dr Crayfish

If anyone thinks Craft beers etc aren't going to go up in price as well you're nuts

RasTa

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

If anyone thinks Craft beers etc aren't going to go up in price as well you're nuts

Why would they? This is leveling the field to an extend for free.

Dr Crayfish

RasTa wrote: »

Why would they? This is leveling the field to an extend for free.

Because money

mightybashful

L1011 wrote: »

This will inevitably be challenged by retailers and will inevitably be thrown out just like the exact same thing for cigarettes was. Its a hobby horse for someone who wants to be seen to "do something" and doesn't care that it'll waste the state cash defending it before they get kicked by the ECJ.

The Scottish were told to prove minimum pricing was the only possible answer. They clearly can't

This will have to be challenged by retailers. With sterling collapsing in value, unless a similarly stupid bill was brought in north of the border then even more business will be lost to Asda, Sainsbury's etc.

Reputable Rog

RasTa wrote: »

This won't affect the price of craft beer, well it shouldn't and I can't see the boys upping their prices because of this.

Might push more people towards the craft scene if they don't move their prices.

Although will Lidl American Pale Wheat still be €1.99 @ 5%?

Craft beer is already overpriced and has been used as an excuse to push up the price of beer.

Reputable Rog

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Nothing to do with the price. I often buy expensive German beers like Augustine's etc j just don't like craft beers usually. Heresy I know.

I buy a lot of Belgian beer, most of the 'craft' beers are nothing special and Invariably overhopped American IPA's.
The term craft beer is laughable for a lot of these beers such as Fran Well or Sam Adams.

rubadub

L1011 wrote: »

Its a hobby horse for someone who wants to be seen to "do something" and doesn't care that it'll waste the state cash defending it before they get kicked by the ECJ.

Varadkar would be top of my list to blame, and I hope people remember this. I was wondering how much taxpayers money he has already pissed away on this, it's an utter disgrace and a complete embarrassment to the country. Even if it does get passed I would feel similar, as they should be embarrassed they screwed up and effectively have pissed away potential money that should have gone into the government coffers.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/heard-the-one-about-eu-law-and-irish-minimum-alcohol-prices-1.2522678

The only way minimum price rules can be saved is if member states can demonstrate that in a given case minimum pricing is somehow more effective than taxation. Judging by his December all-guns-blazing reaction to the Court’s ruling, Leo Varadkar has clung to the hope of doing this in order to save the draft Irish minimum pricing arrangements. He has claimed that taxation cannot be used in Ireland because retailers here sell alcohol for prices lower than excise and VAT rates (apparently thus demonstrating immunity to all efforts to control them using tax law). Such reasoning seems most unlikely to be accepted by the Court of Justice. If retailers really are selling alcohol at prices lower than the tax rates charged by the Government, then that problem can be sorted out by enforcing below-cost selling rules against them. Thus taxation remains an option. There is no need to get into minimum pricing rules at all.

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

If anyone thinks Craft beers etc aren't going to go up in price as well you're nuts

You might consider me nuts so... But if this was to be a bet I would want to see the criteria -as if it was a bet with paddy powers, too easy to come back and post that some offie has increased the price of some random beer. First off what is the definition of "craft beer", under your definition some might already be below the minimum pricing and so will have to "go up". Also there is general inflation, it would be no surprise to see beer, lemonade, milk, bread going up in the future. If this is an overall average of "craft beers" increasing in price then how would you determine it? is it just an overall average of what outlets are attempting to sell it at? or the more genuine and harder figure to determine -what customers are actually paying.

e.g. all the main supermarkets might well chance their arm and put a price up, but as I have said in many posts there is open competition here, a "rogue" supermarket or even a tiny offie, or indeed an online offie could decide not to follow the rest of the chancers and undercut them. If the likes of heineken locally decide to jack up the price then grey area importers can still import from other countries with more reasonable wholesale prices and undercut them all.

The likes of wetherspoons are already doing off sales, many cheaper than any other outlets here. If local breweries, distributors and retailers here try to clean up then they still face open competition from the likes of spoons who certainly have the balls not to play along.

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Because money

Exactly why it is not going to be higher prices across the board, huge turnover to be made by undercutting any chancers. There will be a huge dip in sales of previously cheaper beers, so the breweries could benefit from economies of scale and be able to have wholesale prices a lot lower. It would be nuts to think nobody would take advantage of this, and nuts not to think that at the very least some beers (already over the min price) will be readily available at the same price, if not cheaper.

I was searching before to see if anything like this took place before, I found nothing. It does not have to be alcohol, I would be very interested to see what actually happened in any country where something like this took place with any item. The Canadian one does not count, its not the same. It has been proposed a long time, I would like to read anything by proper economists or sociologists etc, I would love to hear the theories.

Zaph

It would be counter-productive for either craft breweries or craft beer retailers to increase their prices if this legislation comes in. As it stands, it will narrow the price differential between the cheaper beers and the more expensive beers which would probably be already above the minimum price per unit. This has the potential to encourage more people to try craft beers if they're going to be say 50c dearer than their usual beer rather than a euro. Anyone increasing their prices would be effectively shooting themselves in the foot as they don't currently attract this business anyway and the legislation would be levelling the playing field a bit with zero cost to them.

Given what beers I generally buy, I suspect that the effect of minimum pricing on my purchases will be non-existent or minimal at worst. What I have a bigger issue with is the ridiculous "alcohol curtain" idea. Turning alcohol buying into a furtive activity isn't going to make it less attractive to young people, if anything it makes it more attractive. We're adults and should be treated accordingly, not be made to look like a bunch of degenerates who lurk behind a curtain getting our fix. It's the most pathetic example of nanny-stateism I've ever heard and will quite frankly make the country a laughing stock if it goes ahead.

L1011

The provided suggested image in the documentation by the state for the 'curtain' not only made alcohol purchasing furtive, it made it particularly appealing. Area of a supermarket, locked away with "BEER CAVE" written on it and random, non-drink related imagery

Dr Crayfish

Zaph wrote: »

It's the most pathetic example of nanny-stateism I've ever heard and will quite frankly make the country a laughing stock if it goes ahead.

I know, it's bloody embarrassing.
There'll be no more slabs of Guinness and Carlsberg at Christmas for €24, if it was introduced before Christmas, which is unlikely, I would imagine a lot of people would do their entire Christmas shop up North. It's a ridiculous hair brained scheme, and it wont lead to drinking less. If anything people with an alcohol problem will have bigger problems with less money to spend on other things like their kids etc...

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.